I copied this image from an old thread.
www.seabreeze.com.au/
/images/misc/forum-image-missing.gif

This shows two very different design approaches to "pointy" SUP design (please forgive my lack of knowledge of SUP terminology).

What are the applications of these two designs?

I am a SUP newb (short board surfer) looking at getting a "pointy" SUP that I can take out into the ocean as well as paddle long hauls through varied conditions on the local lake.

The photo above has made me think there are two design variants in this category of board. I saw a YouTube clip
of an open ocean race where everyone seems to be on S.I.C 14' Bullets. The boards being used all looked like enlarged surfing short boards, not having the "ship" type nose/bow that I previously thought was the go for open ocean SUPing.

"Ship" nose or "Short board" nose for the ocean and down wind runs?

IMO both designs work well in the open ocean but I think the pointy cutting nose is more suited to flat water and is slightly faster where the surfing nose is more suited to surfing and downwinders.. Good guys that want the most speed will often paddle a pointy cutting nose on downwinders because even though they are a bit trickier (technical) to paddle they are slightly faster.. So if you want the best DW board that you can also race go with the surfing nose.. If you want a race board that you can also do downwinders on go with the pointy cutting nose.. If you're after the easiest and the one with the best stability I'd choose the surfing nose board..

DJ

Cheers for the great response. As I wouldn't mind catching the odd wave and am a SUP newb the surfing nose would be the go. Any suggestions on models 12'6" to 14' designed like this?

This
http://walkonwater.com.au/boards/walk-on-water/ is all I can find for the Walk on Water brand as shown in the photo I copied in the opening post.

here's a thread on the WoW DW boards

www.seabreeze.com.au/

I have the 14' DW board and I am very happy with it (if you look at DJ's vid on page 2 ypu'll see that it even attracts dolphins ).

The WoW guys really need to get that website sorted...great boards across the range but a bit of a well-kept secret. I can PM you a contact for the WoW boys and If you're in Melb/Vic they're available at RPS in Elwood.

Thanks HC, got your PM. Turns out I used to work with the bloke years ago. Small world :)

Might see if he wants a hand with that Website too. It needs a bit of TLC.

Unless you only wight 50kg or have limited storage space I would recomend the 14 for sure.

DJ

This article
zenwaterman.blogspot.com/2009/11/sup-race-board-comparison-planing-vs.html relates to my question. Seems the "ship" type noses are faster and maybe catch runners with less effort. The "surfboard" type noses are easier to surf across runners at an angle.

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DavidJohn said...
Unless you only wight 50kg or have limited storage space I would recomend the 14 for sure.

DJ

Agree...

But I still say they Fanatic 12'6 x 30 is an amazing board... Masses of planning area for 85kg to 95kg pilots, plus the sharp nose gives you artificial rocker... the front 1 foot of nose is sharp, and it acts like a front fin... Pintail nose... extremely forgiving, provided you are tracking straight.

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enuenu said...
This article
zenwaterman.blogspot.com/2009/11/sup-race-board-comparison-planing-vs.html relates to my question. Seems the "ship" type noses are faster and maybe catch runners with less effort. The "surfboard" type noses are easier to surf across runners at an angle.

I also call them cutting or piercing noses... But a piercing nose can also work really well at 15 to 20 degrees off down wind... My best experience was the Fanatic 12'6 x 30... The harder you paddle, the more the board invites you to paddle harder... amazing glides (big planning area)... sharp nose acts like a front fin, helps maintain the angle to glide across. But a chunk of surfing experience also helps... it helps you quickly correct the board when it gets unsettled....

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Simondo said...I also call them cutting or piercing noses... But a piercing nose can also work really well at 15 to 20 degrees off down wind... My best experience was the Fanatic 12'6 x 30... The harder you paddle, the more the board invites you to paddle harder... amazing glides (big planning area)... sharp nose acts like a front fin, helps maintain the angle to glide across. But a chunk of surfing experience also helps... it helps you quickly correct the board when it gets unsettled....

Maybe the 12'6" boards have an advantage over the 14' boards in the open ocean in that they are easier to "surf"? You can steer them with your feet. This makes sense but maybe you lose too much glide compared to a 14 footer?

This photo from the Fanatic Website (12'6" Falcon) shows that you can surf the "ship" type noses (granted it's a tiny wave)). I though they would just track straight and spit you off if you tried to turn with your feet as you would a surfboard. It seems you can get on the tail and get the "bow" out of the water and allow the rocker to do its job to some extent.


I still think a "surf" nose would be more manoeuvrable on any wave and you might even be able surf larger waves on even a 14' ocean board with this type of nose. Dropping into a bommy (even a fat one) with a "ship" type nose might be hairy.

I guess I want the best of both worlds. Something quick to pick up ocean runners that I can paddle out through the break and also surf back to shore in a decent swell. I don't want to have to find a harbour.

I've also read that the high, flat & vertical rails associated with "ship" styled boards are more prone to be upset by cross chop and cross wind whereas the lower, more rounded rails of a "surf" styled board are not pushed around as much by chop and wind.

Might even throw the Angulo Shaka
http://angulodesigns.com/boards/shaka/ into the equation.

Hopefully demo a few boards in the next couple of weeks, albeit on flat water. My mind might totally change after chatting and paddling.

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enuenu said...

Might even throw the Angulo Shaka
http://angulodesigns.com/boards/shaka/ into the equation.

Now your talking.....................

if you look at the latest designs most are going for minimal displacement and almost a dishy type nose. take the starby ace and most of their old and new ocean range, the dc nsp, lahui kai and even fanatic seem to be heading in this direction. sic have stuck with their time and race proven planning nose and rockers and have them all documented

the idea is to cut a bit of chop but they are looking for the nose to float on the bump in front and even go over it.

the idea of a displacement nose cutting through the bump sounds good but a sup is just to wide to do this . ski and oc1 can because they are much narrower.


i've been fan planning nose types for dw for a while now and for me its great to see these dishy planning type noses coming through.

i believe they will only get better and better, how ever it is a real science to get it right so i would recommend production and semi hand crafted companies that do the hard yards with their r and d. not those that just put a board out there to cash in

cheers

Thanks lacey. From someone who knows little about the sport a surf type nose seems to make sense in the ocean to me, particularly if you are ever tempted to drop into a big lump.

Now I'm thinking whether to go 12'6" or 14'. Would a suitably designed 12'6" do the open ocean rough stuff OK or do you really have to go to a 14' to do this sort of DW SUPing? Just thinking of the easier lugging, easier storage and general convenience of a shorter board. Will be demoing a few in near future.

A 12'6" will work in the open ocean and on downwinders in the same way a BMX bike will work on a mountain bike ride.. Do'able but NQR.

Even big 14' boards start to feel very small when the conditions get wild and 12'6" boards become much more technical to make them work because you need to move around on the board more.

Boards like the 12'6" Glide and 12'6" Jav will do both very well (OO and DW) but IMO a 14' board is still the better choice.

DJ

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DavidJohn said...
A 12'6" will work in the open ocean and on downwinders in the same way a BMX bike will work on a mountain bike ride.. Do'able but NQR.

Even big 14' boards start to feel very small when the conditions get wild and 12'6" boards become much more technical to make them work because you need to move around on the board more.

Boards like the 12'6" Glide and 12'6" Jav will do both very well (OO and DW) but IMO a 14' board is still the better choice.

DJ

Im not anywhere close to DJ's level/experience in downwinding, however i dont think i quite agree with this. I find that 12'6'' boards dont need to be walked anywhere near as much as 14's and its easier to track with a 12'6'' (as its easier to turn from standing possition).

14's are definately faster and hold their glide for longer but i find that a 12'6'' for me is more fun and easier to DW.

it might just be the conditions we have on the sunny coast (as we never get runners like DJ's videos, ours always have chop and backwash and never run straight from start to finish).

i also found this in the 12 towers race on the weekend, i dont think i would have been any faster on a 14.

any other theories as to why??

...and then there's rider size. Tall and heavy? go the 14.

That said, nearly everyone down here in Melb, tall, short, thin, fat, light, heavy...chooses 14s for downwinders and all but the shortest/choppiest technical races.

Thanks, sounds like 14' s getting the nod. 85kg +.

in saying that im 92kg at the moment, there are plenty of high volume 12'6''s that work pretty well

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RJK said...

DavidJohn said...
A 12'6" will work in the open ocean and on downwinders in the same way a BMX bike will work on a mountain bike ride.. Do'able but NQR.

Even big 14' boards start to feel very small when the conditions get wild and 12'6" boards become much more technical to make them work because you need to move around on the board more.

Boards like the 12'6" Glide and 12'6" Jav will do both very well (OO and DW) but IMO a 14' board is still the better choice.

DJ

Im not anywhere close to DJ's level/experience in downwinding, however i dont think i quite agree with this. I find that 12'6'' boards dont need to be walked anywhere near as much as 14's and its easier to track with a 12'6'' (as its easier to turn from standing possition).

14's are definately faster and hold their glide for longer but i find that a 12'6'' for me is more fun and easier to DW.

it might just be the conditions we have on the sunny coast (as we never get runners like DJ's videos, ours always have chop and backwash and never run straight from start to finish).

i also found this in the 12 towers race on the weekend, i dont think i would have been any faster on a 14.

any other theories as to why??

a 'typical' say snapper/ kirra to alley/ burleigh run has the 12'6s running better in the shorter chop. at about tugun the swells start stretching out and 14' plus boards start pulling ahead with their extra glide.

i can be ahead of a mate of mine on a 12'6 who has a 17'4 bullet then at tugun ish its just see you later.

typical run being at 15 knots. less wind i stay in front longer. 12'6's get more glides more often but its hard to match a longer boards glide when conditions are on

however the elite freaks on 12'6 s is a different ball game altogether

Thanks. To me it will be about which is more fun to downwind. I see the SIC 12'6" Bullet is an inch wider than the 14' so might be a bit more stable in the cross chop.

I talked with a bloke who has surfed a 12'6" Bullet out at Makaha (Long Reef Sydney) on small days (an exposed fattish wave when small) and said he can cut back and have fun actually surfing this board a little. Another bloke I spoke to said he preferred the shorter length for DW especially in short period wind swell (which we often get on the NSW coast and in places like Pittwater, Lake Macquarie or Nelson Bay.)

I wonder if you could do this sort of surfing
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/Sic-126-bullet/ on a 14'? Being able to surf a DW board like this makes it a pretty good all round board. Looks like fun.

Then again, other blokes say if you are heading out onto a windy ocean a 14' is definitely the go. I can see this. Seems like opinion is divided.

Guess I will go with something and work from there. Not another toy intensive hobby!

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enuenu said...
Thanks. To me it will be about which is more fun to downwind. I see the SIC 12'6" Bullet is an inch wider than the 14' so might be a bit more stable in the cross chop.

I talked with a bloke who has surfed a 12'6" Bullet out at Makaha (Long Reef Sydney) on small days (an exposed fattish wave when small) and said he can cut back and have fun actually surfing this board a little. Another bloke I spoke to said he preferred the shorter length for DW especially in short period wind swell (which we often get on the NSW coast and in places like Pittwater, Lake Macquarie or Nelson Bay.)

I wonder if you could do this sort of surfing
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/Sic-126-bullet/ on a 14'? Being able to surf a DW board like this makes it a pretty good all round board. Looks like fun.

Then again, other blokes say if you are heading out onto a windy ocean a 14' is definitely the go. I can see this. Seems like opinion is divided.

Guess I will go with something and work from there. Not another toy intensive hobby!

i had a 12'6 bullet and yeah it's a great surfing board. a very good moderate dw er too.