Hi Everyone,

I am posting this again in this forum as it was brought to my attention that it wasn't appropriate for the general SUP forum.

I got such a positive response last time so I though I'd get your opinions again! This weekend I tried out the NSP 10'2x32" Element and found it very tippy. I couldn't stand up for more than a minute on it without toppling over the side. Now, this could be in part due to my inability to balance well. The conditions were a bit blowy so I will let that take some of the blame also! Either way, I found it hard to stand up and maintain my balance.

Having found the NSP a bit hard to balance on, it has been recommended that I try a Mana 10'5 due to the dramatic increase in width and the 251 litres of volume. All the reviews I have read (mostly on this site) seem to indicate that the 10'5 is like a log in the water, hard to turn and hard to get up speed on. The person I talked to reckons that if you're heavy like I am, then turning isn't an issue and that the Mana's in general are made to take into the waves. Another issue is that there is no one around Geelong/Torquay that has this board to demo, so I would have to buy it blindly in hopes that it is the right board for me. I wanted to try out the Mana 10'0 but was told that the NSP would be more stable due to its larger rails. Another board that I was looking into was the PSH 10'2, but was told that 1) no one stocks them in my area, 2) they are a cheaper build and 3) have a poor resale value. But from what I have read, they are very stable and great for surfing.

Does anyone own the Mana 10'5, or tried it out? How does is perform in the surf? Is it maneuverable if you have the weight? Lastly, how does it perform on flat water? Same questions for the PSH 10'2. I am 6'4'', 115 kg, not a surfer but want to eventually take the SUP into the surf. And yes, I am fully aware of the dangers SUP's represent in the surf with other surfers being present and a novice behind the wheel so to speak. I grew up body boarding and body surfing, just not board surfing, so I have some experience with surf etiquette. I want to get into SUP for fitness and fun, and that means flat water paddling and surfing.

Hi Aramathorn, I've got the 10'2 Hull Paddler sitting down the sideway at home. I bought it new. They are heavy, Chip easily and at the moment the grub screw that was holding in the side fins is half way out but the head of it's stripped. That can be easily fixed. On the up side when I hopped on this board at 110 kg (when I bought it ) I couldn't believe how easily it turned , how well it paddled and how stable it was. I paid $1200.00 for it new with a fibreglass paddle that snapped after 6 months. If you can be bothered putting in the sidebiter (I'll put the centre and other sidefin back in for you) you can have it for $250.00 if you like it. No Paddle for it though and as I said some chips out of the enamel covering. There are no dings or anything. I'm going down the west coast tomorrow (Monday) and probably Thursday if your interested. If not I'll give the board to my sister [probably ideal for learning on. I'm on a 9'2" Allwave nowadays. Next stop someting sub 9 after my Hip operation next Friday

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Leroy13 said..

Hi Aramathorn, I've got the 10'2 Hull Paddler sitting down the sideway at home. I bought it new. They are heavy, Chip easily and at the moment the grub screw that was holding in one of the side fins is half way out (the head of it's stripped.). That can be easily fixed. On the up side when I hopped on this board at 110 kg (when I bought it ) I couldn't believe how easily it turned , how well it paddled and how stable it was. I paid $1200.00 for it new with a fibreglass paddle that snapped after 6 months. If you can be bothered putting in the sidebiter (I'll put the centre and other sidefin back in for you) you can have it for $250.00 if you like it. No Paddle for it though and as I said some chips out of the enamel covering. There are no dings or anything. I'm going down the west coast tomorrow (Monday) and probably Thursday if your interested. If not I'll give the board to my sister [probably ideal for learning on. I'm on a 9'2" Allwave nowadays. Next stop someting sub 9 after my Hip operation next Friday

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Leroy13 said..

Leroy13 said..

Hi Aramathorn, I've got the 10'2 Hull Paddler sitting down the sideway at home. I bought it new. They are heavy, Chip easily and at the moment the grub screw that was holding in one of the side fins is half way out (the head of it's stripped.). That can be easily fixed. On the up side when I hopped on this board at 110 kg (when I bought it ) I couldn't believe how easily it turned , how well it paddled and how stable it was. I paid $1200.00 for it new with a fibreglass paddle that snapped after 6 months. If you can be bothered putting in the sidebiter (I'll put the centre and other sidefin back in for you) you can have it for $250.00 if you like it. No Paddle for it though and as I said some chips out of the enamel covering. There are no dings or anything. I'm going down the west coast tomorrow (Monday) and probably Thursday if your interested. If not I'll give the board to my sister [probably ideal for learning on. I'm on a 9'2" Allwave nowadays. Next stop someting sub 9 after my Hip operation next Friday

Hi Leroy,

I've just sent you a message. I am interested for sure!

Hi Aramathorn

I'm a novice - beware. But I am 6'5" and 112kgs - in other words I have about the same effect that you have on a board. Smaller people just can't relate. Even ShireSup, who was 120kgs plus when he started, is sub-six feet (as I recall) and has so much less leverage on the board it just doesn't matter.

I researched like crazy, like you. I'm in Canberra and I bought a Starboard Touring 12'6" 32" wide for the flat water here and it is great - but I get severely upset by uneven water - when I was a real mug I used to get the wobbles from a kayaker passing me. And the Touring is still a real challenge for me unless the water is totally flat. Down the coast - that's a whole nuther affair. I simply cannot stay standing even when it's fairly calm.

So I researched, like I said, and not just in Oz, and I bought a Starboard Avanti, and it's excellent. I'm still a total mug, but I CAN catch a wave standing, and ride it out, and turn and paddle back out, rinse and repeat - still standing. Not often, and only on tiny waves, but I can do it - and it's fun. And that's the key. If it was hard it wouldn't be as much fun, and I'd stop, and I wouldn't learn as much.

And don't worry, it's still super-hard - my legs are totally stuffed in a fairly short time. I mean TOTALLY.

The Avanti is built for big guys. And it can turn - if you have the weight and the leverage to do it, and you do have that. There are five or six videos on line, including one of Shire's. A few of those show a couple of big powerful guys turning it.

In my opinion you are above the weight scale for all the other boards you have mentioned in both of your threads, and I don't think the short and light guys can give you much relevant advice. You asked in the other thread if 10kgs above the weight range was a concern - it absolutely is, and when you multiply that by the increased leverage you have by being taller than the tiddlers it blows the little guys' boards out of contention.

Also: you said, as I recall, you can't pop to your feet easily on your longboard, or something like that. Anyway, I got the impression you're not quite a nimble gymnast. So it supports the idea that you need a board you can just get out there and have fun on, that you can stand up and paddle, not stand up and fall off.

You need a "go to" board that you can grab and KNOW you're going to have fun on. Not one that you're going to be apprehensive about.

And if someone gives you advice, ask them "Weight and height?" and if they aren't similar to you (and me) then discount their advice by a lot.

If I imagine me with my weight being seven inches shorter - I could ride an Ace! If I was four inches taller than I am now I'd find the Avanti a challenge

Go for fun, research from a big bloke's perspective.

Try to buy an Avanti second hand, but I think everyone just keeps them - a great board for challenging water, even better if you want I introduce someone to supping. I can't imagine ever selling mine, except maybe to replace it with a carbon model. On that front: you'll see some people whinging that its heavy - rubbish. Our types seriously are strong enough!!!

Do I know of any other stock board suitable for you? Nope.

Hope this helps.

From the PSH website for the 10'2" x 33":

WEIGHT RECOMMENDATIONS
Beginner-up to 250 lbs
Experienced-up to 275 lbs
Expert-up to 325 lbs

You're 260 lbs, prob 265lbs on the board and kitted up, and a beginner, the board is rated "up to 250 lbs" so it's sweet spot is probably around 220lbs, and you ain't gonna be paddling in smooth water. And you have 6'4" of leverage. If you're fit and agile and a fast learner - go for it. Dont under-estimate the difference that your height plays in this. Its not as though you're 5'10"!

Otherwise - keep researching.

Hi NeilInOz,

Thanks for the input, will add the Avanti to the list of boards to consider/try. The problem is that there are not many boards to demo around here, especially the Starboards. Naish and NSP are the major brands currently, with Starboard coming in, and as there isn't a huge amount of interest (although it's growing), it means that what is available to demo is severely limited. To bad you're not around the Geelong region. Leroy13 has kindly offered to lend me his PSH 10'2 for a month to try out. I will give it a go and see if I can get the hang of it. I reckon that if I can't get the balance right on it, then I will be looking at the Avanti or something of that size.

It's great to hear from the point of view of another big guy. You are right in that I'm not a nimble gymnast, but neither am I a couch potato (not that you implied that). No matter how much weight I lose, I will still be a big guy with limited flexibility and a poor center of balance, especially on the water. I think sometimes people forget that when you're 6'4-6'5, your center of gravity suffers, at least for me. Did you try out any smaller boards fist?

I have been doing heaps of research on this topic, for about a month now and as with most things, the possibilities are endless. Everyone has their preferences and valid points (which I enjoy hearing about as I think that some people think similarly to me). One thing I am coming to realize is that I will most likely have to buy something without having been able to demo it first.

Thanks again for your advice! Much appreciated and lot more to consider.

Armathorn
2 suggestions

#1 - buy leroys board... at that price, you can't go wrong... heck you'll spend that much on a few dinners out. If its a bit tough for you now... keep it to work into after your first Big Boy SUP.

#2 - if you struggle on that board, Try the Avanti. I was 120 kg and wobbly... it was my first SUP... rock solid, surfs great. Easy learner for a big guy, and a great flat-water paddler as well. Search this sight... I have made a few posts about the Avanti.

Enjoy your demo from leroy... it doesn't get any better that that deal.

Leroy... best wishes on your hip replacement! Heal well and quickly

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supthecreek said..
Armathorn 2 suggestions #1 - buy leroys board... at that price, you can't go wrong... heck you'll spend that much on a few dinners out. If its a bit tough for you now... keep it to work into after your first Big Boy SUP. #2 - if you struggle on that board, Try the Avanti. I was 120 kg and wobbly... it was my first SUP... rock solid, surfs great. Easy learner for a big guy, and a great flat-water paddler as well. Search this sight... I have made a few posts about the Avanti. Enjoy your demo from leroy... it doesn't get any better that that deal. Leroy... best wishes on your hip replacement! Heal well and quickly

Thanks supthecreek, I think you've hit the nail on the head! After looking into NeilInOz's suggestion of the Avanti, it has caught my interest big time. Leroy's offer is very generous and he has dropped off the board for me to try out already. Will give it a solid try before deciding further, but I think your recommendation is spot on.

Leroy has some Good Karma coming his way,for his generosity,so the hip should be sweet .All the best for the op and speedy recovery.

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waxer said..

Leroy has some Good Karma coming his way,for his generosity,so the hip should be sweet .All the best for the op and speedy recovery.

Yes, I agree with that. There's not many people that would give you a lend of a board like that, and drop it off to boot!

I hope your op goes well Leroy, make sure those nurses look after you!

Thanks guys. It seriously is no biggie!! Unfortunately for me sometimes for everything nice deed I do two bad things happen I can't explain why. I promised myself it wasn't going to stop me trying to do the right thing so hopefully I'll get the good Karma in my next life, or I will have repaid what I must have done in my last one.. My life hasn't been that bad anyway, so I really shouldn't whinge

Thanks guys. It seriously is no biggie!! Unfortunately for me sometimes for everything nice deed I do two bad things happen I can't explain why. I promised myself it wasn't going to stop me trying to do the right thing so hopefully I'll get the good Karma in my next life, or I will have repaid what I must have done in my last one.. My life hasn't been that bad anyway, so I really shouldn't whinge

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supthecreek said..

Armathorn
2 suggestions

#1 - buy leroys board... at that price, you can't go wrong... heck you'll spend that much on a few dinners out. If its a bit tough for you now... keep it to work into after your first Big Boy SUP.

#2 - if you struggle on that board, Try the Avanti. I was 120 kg and wobbly... it was my first SUP... rock solid, surfs great. Easy learner for a big guy, and a great flat-water paddler as well. Search this sight... I have made a few posts about the Avanti.

Enjoy your demo from leroy... it doesn't get any better that that deal.

Leroy... best wishes on your hip replacement! Heal well and quickly

Hey Rick, Thanks for the good wishes. Sorry I haven't been on 'The Zone' Lately I've been busy and pretty zonked out! If my leg comes good though I'll be stoked. Hopefully I'll be on to one of them 8'11" Allwaves!! Some of the photos I've seen posted of you are amazing!! I feel like saying act your age!! A 65 year old surfing like a 25 year old!!!! I've fallen off the 'Primal' diet a little but hope to get back on whilst I'm doing rehab. I'll PM you a week or so after the OP and start posting again. Take care and keep on ripping superstar!!!!!!!

Hi everyone,

No more pondering and trying out.....My wife is interested in SUP and has said that if the board is too wobbly for me she will use it and learn on it and I can get another one. Once Leroy gets back to me, he'll be getting some cash coming his way!

Thanks again Leroy, your generousity is much appreciated!

Leroy, you deserve the good karma! Aramathorn: that's a great result. You can't lose, you'll have heaps of fun - all good!

And I'm not around Geelong, but my son is coming down to play golf if a few weeks in the school kids champs - maybe I'll be there. If I am then I'll bring both the Avanti and the Touring. Just don't laugh too hard when you see me "surfing".

And you're going to have fun on the PSH, and your legs will learn how to do this.

Researching is good, being on a board is great.

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NeilInOz said..

Leroy, you deserve the good karma! Aramathorn: that's a great result. You can't lose, you'll have heaps of fun - all good!

And I'm not around Geelong, but my son is coming down to play golf if a few weeks in the school kids champs - maybe I'll be there. If I am then I'll bring both the Avanti and the Touring. Just don't laugh too hard when you see me "surfing".

And you're going to have fun on the PSH, and your legs will learn how to do this.

Researching is good, being on a board is great.

That sounds great, be sure to let me know if you come down. Hopefully by that time I will be stable on something. Hanging out now for Friday, rain or shine I will be out giving the PSH a go.

Good Karma since I helped Chicken 396 ( See his post, last week, not mine, I didn't know he was on Seabreeze, I would have done the same for a Longboarder), while he was having a heart attack in the water:
1./ $80.00 to drive through Sydney because of $10.00 'Admin costs' for each $2.76 section. The Motel owner said it would go onto my City link account it didn't.
2./ $8000.00 excess at the hospital where I am having my hip done. Apparently HCF have some sort of exclusion on the hip replacement even though I'm supposed to have the highest cover (HCF) I'm ringing them after this post.
3./ Blocked in to a car parking spot (for over an hour with a tired kid) at Monash Uni after driving my 14 year old to a State hockey training, because we were told by a Campus Information representative from their campus centre, that we were allowed to park anywhere, I repeat anywhere after 5.00 pm. This was confirmed by the guy ringing the Parking administration office and double checking, at my insistence..
4./There are a pile of other little things that I won't go into.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GOOD KARMA. That will still never prevent me from trying to do the right and nice thing to spite the power that is I was either Hitler in a past life, or I've run over God's cat and broken God's mirror. Manically he LOLs. Rant over. The way things are going I'll end up being a quadraplegic after the operation because the operating table collapsed during the procedure!!! If so it's been nice knowing you all!!

The reality check: GUYS. WE COULD HAVE ALL BEEN BORN A WOMAN IN AFGHANISTAN, (Plus a million other things)!!

Aramathorn

New developments. I'm ordering a carbon Avanti. I can see my self never being without one, and what the hell: if I can't afford a bit of luxury something is wrong!

But . . .

I was down at Moruya rivermouth on Sunday, and the Avanti got nicked by my daughter and I got stuck with the Starbord touring flat water board, so I might be keeping both Avantis!

Every time I get on it I love it more.

Nice Neil, the new Carbon looks pretty sweet! I am ordering a 2014 Avanti which will be the updated version of the silver and should be here in mid to late October.

That is great news about getting the Carbon Avanti, after lugging the PSH down to the water in windy conditions, I can appreciate how a lighter board would be very welcome! And the cool Carbon graphics aren't to bad either. Is the carbon being imported into Australia? I have been told there is only one Avant coming in, though maybe that one is the only one for October and more to come later.

I have been taking the PSH out a few times but it's difficult to keep my balance on flat water. Even with practice, I find that I topple over the side very easily. Interestingly, I was at Strapper Surf in Torquay looking at possibly getting a larger centre fin today and was told that the PSH 10'2 Hull Paddler is a great board for surfing, but will be a big challenge to learn on, especially for someone of my size. It was pointed out to me the rail (foil?) width decreases the actual surface area of the bottom when in flat water. So even though it measures 33" wide, you only get around 29" of width sitting in the water. I forget the exact terms, but essentially the board is made for the surf and should be great on the waves. So I will continue to play around on the PSH until the Avanti comes in. Once I have built up enough skill on the waves with the Avanti, I will give the PSH a go for some more maneuverable riding.

Hey Rob, I'm amazed that you still are having problems in flat water. I'm not sure who you spoke to but they actually have it wrong. In flatwater you have the 33" in the water on a wave you have 29" because of the Chines. Has anybody come with you to have a look at what the problem may be? If you go to Eastern beach, around the pool you will find nice flat water. Do you have the fin all the way back? Also the board has what is called good primary and secondary stability, so if you start to feel like you are going to tip try and apply minimal pressure to the other side of the board. Your feet should be about 15-20 inches apart and parallel roughly where the handle is. When I'm allowed to drive I'll arrange a time with you and come down and have a look. They are seriously considered to be a very, very, very stable board. The guy at Strapper probably has it confused with the Hull Rippers which where a performance board. The Paddler's where built primarily to paddle and secondarily surf. The Rippers where built primarily to surf and secondarily to paddle. If it was Rich at Strapper, I'd be amazed. Whilst the Avanti is a great board be careful of sales people, it's they're job. If you want I'll give you you're money back and pick up the board in a couple of weeks. It seems like you could possibly use a lesson from an instructor as seriously you are not that big and balance should not be an issue on the Paddler Are you sure you not venturing into the surf again??LOL. Go tomorrow morning and have fun by standing up slowly and staying centred Grasshopper once you are up paddle as it's easier to maintain your balance whilst moving.

Hi Leroy, that was the term I was looking for, Chines, and yes, it was Rich at Strapper that told me that. I am happy to keep the board, so no need to worry about that end of things. I haven't been out heaps of times, more like a few times. It does seem that every time I go out, it is very windy and choppy, so that may contribute to things. No doubt I could use a lesson or two, but I do only go to Cozy Corner or Fisho's in Torquay so i am not trying it out in the waves. Balance has never been my strong point, so that's why I say that I will keep trying, and doing so with a positive attitude as I know that the more time spent in the water, the better I will get. The sales people never bring up the Avanti, I almost always get the pitch to go for a Naish 10'5.

I will be going out tomorrow morning, but might try Barwon river this time. Rich did also tell me where my feet should be planted and I found that helped a little when I was out this morning.

Don't worry, I am happy to keep plugging away. My comments are made with any negativity, just observations on how I feel my time with the board is going.

Hi Rob, all the places you have mentioned have moving water. This will affect your initial ability to find your sweet spot. Please try Eastern Beach or one of the completely still water places close by. I promise it will make a difference Scouts honour.

Rob, you're gonna get lots better real fast. The first time I went for a long-ish paddle (40 minutes:)) on the Touring on water that was almost glass I nearly got thrown off by a kayaker going past! On Sunday I stayed upright when a few jet skis were giving it a bit of stick in the ocean. Same board, just more hours on the board.

I'm pretty sure that if you really want something then someone will bring it onto the country for you. They might have to call in a few favours, but it will happen. Funny thing - I emailed the WetSpot in Canberra on Wednesday to ask them to grab a carbon for me, got told that after Moruya on Sunday Scott had figured I was going to buy it so had already nabbed it for me. It's good client service when the guy knows what I'm going to buy before I do!

So I'm backing Leroy up here. Find some glass, get some hours into your legs in multiple sessions - that is crucial. Like learning piano or anything - three twenty minute sessions is way better than one sixty minute session.

But I'm also certain that unless someone has the same leverage as you, with a similar experience level, then there's a bit of an understanding gap. A guy that works for me is 6'2" or so, 135 kgs. I'm 6'5", was 120 kgs first time on a SUP, now 114 :).

I reckon there's a leverage thing happening here. Makes sense to me. Imagine some long skinny guy, 6'10" and 95 kgs. Now imagine a 5'10" guy, 160kgs. I reckon they'd be like us, and I reckon that a 5'10" 93kg guy, whether he's been SUPping forever or for three hours, has NO COMPREHENSION WHATSOEVER what it's like for us. And we can't imagine what it's like for them either.

There are plenty of big blokes (lots on Standupzone) who can add input too.

And Leroy: you need a couple of good things to happen, mate! New hips these days can be fabulous - I'm backing you to get a ripper of one.

And I'm not a sales bloke for Starboard - it's pure fluke that the first one I got was one - it should have been the Naish Glide, and I just preferred the bamboo and the sexier nose of the Touring. The Avanti, on the other hand, was the result of many, many hours of reading and researching and asking and digging. By the way - I don't even reckon its heavy - it's lighter than the Touring. Never weighed it, but if you're big enough to need one then you're strong enough to carry one. Why the carbon? Same reason as I have a Trek Madone with Dura-Ace. Because I can!

By the way: My next board is possibly:

A DC custom flat water cruising board, maybe anything up to 17'
A Surftech Bark Eliminator

But not likely to be a Starboard. (People might think I was biased!)

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Aramathorn said..

Hi Leroy, that was the term I was looking for, Chines, and yes, it was Rich at Strapper that told me that. I am happy to keep the board, so no need to worry about that end of things. I haven't been out heaps of times, more like a few times. It does seem that every time I go out, it is very windy and choppy, so that may contribute to things. No doubt I could use a lesson or two, but I do only go to Cozy Corner or Fisho's in Torquay so i am not trying it out in the waves. Balance has never been my strong point, so that's why I say that I will keep trying, and doing so with a positive attitude as I know that the more time spent in the water, the better I will get. The sales people never bring up the Avanti, I almost always get the pitch to go for a Naish 10'5.

I will be going out tomorrow morning, but might try Barwon river this time. Rich did also tell me where my feet should be planted and I found that helped a little when I was out this morning.

Don't worry, I am happy to keep plugging away. My comments are made with any negativity, just observations on how I feel my time with the board is going.

Hey Aramathorn, very windy and choppy conditions are difficult for anyone to paddle in. Try and get out when the weather is better and you will notice a big difference. The hull paddler is known as a stable board so you have the right equipment (at a great price thanks to Leroy's generosity). Cosy or fishos will be fine on a nice day but can be trickier than they look if there is a bit of swell and wind around. Number one thing is to keep at it and know that it's just time and practice. Don't be afraid of asking other paddle boarders around for a few tips, we're a pretty friendly crew around Torquay. I'll keep an eye out for you. The plus side is if you are taking this up to increase your fitness, nothing like a lot of falling off and climbing back on to get you fit!

Thanks guys for all the input!

I spent about two hours today on the board, and it is getting better. I won't say where I went or Leroy will be very unhappy with me! It was enough to convince me once and for all to stick with the flat stuff and learn to get my balance sorted out (even though it is so much fun in the waves!). I spent most of the time on my knees, but even that felt more controlled compared to the first time out. Will definitely be heading out to Eastern Beach for the next few paddles.

Thanks MickMc for the friendly words, will definitely keep an eye out for other paddle boarders when I am in Torquay.

I agree with you Neil, everyone has a different background and experience level. Each person knows roughly their own strengths and weaknesses. And even though something might work for one person, it might not for another. I think the main thing is to practice a lot and as everyone has suggested, demo as many boards as you can until you find one that suits you. When I was out today, I met 3 guys on paddle boards and got to have a go on a 11'4 or 11'6 Naish. I thought it would be super stable compared to my PSH, but (I hope you are reading this Leroy) I actually found the PSH to be more stable when just standing up. At least more stable in the side-to-side category. The Naish had some awesome glide though! You could see how easy it would be to get up some speed on it. It was much narrower than the PSH as well, and I found that I really like the extra width.

Either way Leroy, I am enjoying the PSH and each time I take it out, I am reminded of your generosity.

I agree big time with the camaraderie among suppers. My first long river mouth ride (on the Touring because my daughter had pinched the Avanti) happened because while I was struggling to stay upright Scott saw a wave and said "Neil, four hard paddles on the left!" And I rode it like, forever! Easy eight kilometres, might have been sixty. It gets longer every time I tell it. :):):)

Keep gettin' out there Rob. You get so much better so fast it's ridiculous.

Oh you guys Firstly Rob, listen to Neil and Mick. Secondly Neil I thought it was the the guys at the shop selling the Avanti because of the mixed up info on the Paddler. Thirdly your a very naugfhty boy Rob ( but I also understand why!) Fourthly Mick is one of the best Suppers on the West coast so if you can arrange a time with him it would be well worth while ( i'll give you a ten next time I'm judging)Lastly HAPPY FATHER"S DAY!!!I look forward to going out paddling and surfing with you Rob. Practise in the flat and you'll hve the balance to surf in small waves around two hours of not falling offin flar water. I'll put money on it. There just ain't no short cuts. Take care and have fun