Kai's new race fin vid, just found this on supracer.com
What's people's thoughts?

Love it.. Thanks for the vid.

DJ

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AndyR said..

Kai's new race fin vid, just found this on supracer.com
What's people's thoughts?

Things to pick up from this video:

-Kai's top hand is quite high above his head

-Prominent bend at the waist which clearly promotes a very long reach

-Very high cadence

-Very noticeable how he engages his upper torso in a wave like motion

-Very noticeable how the legs and in particular the knees come into play to the extent that it appears to me at any rate that he is pulling himself forward with his legs.

Conclusion: poetry in motion.

Cheers Ozzie

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DavidJohn said...
Love it.. Thanks for the vid.

DJ

Would you use something like this for downwinding DJ ? I think I remember a post from you about different fins awhile back but couldn't find it to see what fins you use now ??

Select to expand quote

ghost4man said..

AndyR said..

Kai's new race fin vid, just found this on supracer.com
What's people's thoughts?

Things to pick up from this video:

-Kai's top hand is quite high above his head

-Prominent bend at the waist which clearly promotes a very long reach

-Very high cadence

-Very noticeable how he engages his upper torso in a wave like motion

-Very noticeable how the legs and in particular the knees come into play to the extent that it appears to me at any rate that he is pulling himself forward with his legs.

Conclusion: poetry in motion.

Cheers Ozzie

ahh, i haven't watch kai do this, but the abs torso thing is something i've been working on for nearly 2 months. what i've found is your stoke doesn't start at the top. it starts from the finish of your stoke while the paddle is in the water. thats when i now engage my lower abs. as i lift the paddle up my abs 'raise' and roll up under my rib cage.

so when i start to engage my paddle in the water i have a lot of energy/power stored to be released on the 'stoke stage'.

i've notice big improvements at training. when the heats on or on i a can now stay or be in contact with the gun crew. breath control improves too

i rapt to see that vid and watch that carefully.

it does take some disciple for a while because it seems so strange. i've all so notice dw ing this method highly improve balance because your core stability is coming from the right place and your legs a free to do there stuff.

prone paddler do this action to get the reach they need. no wonder they take to sup so well

cheers

ps actually my abs are fully engaged the whole time now

Select to expand quote

AndyR said..

DavidJohn said...
Love it.. Thanks for the vid.

DJ

Would you use something like this for downwinding DJ ? I think I remember a post from you about different fins awhile back but couldn't find it to see what fins you use now ??

Fins are my thing.. All my custom windsurfing wave boards had Multi fins logo's on them and I spent a lot of time with the Multi fins guys in Byron Bay learning about fins and testing them... To start with I hate big fins.. I believe you should always use the smallest fin that you can get away with.. IMO for SUP'ing the fin does two main things.. Gives stability and helps with tracking.. They also have a big effect on turning and speed.... along with collecting weed if that's an issue where you live.. I think the reason that fins works so well for Kai is that his LE Jav's don't have tracking or tippy issues for him (because he's so good.. and so light) so he just needs something small there to stop the tail sliding about.. I think a small/short and wide base dolphin fin would do pretty much what this fin does but wouldn't look as cool.. IMO this fin will wont work for anyone who has any kind of stability or tracking issues.. (and that's most of us).. But going bigger to help with stability and tracking comes at a cost and that's being slow.. Making the board harder to turn.. and being a problem in shallow water.

I'm using the new smaller Gladiator Pro fin on my 12'6".. I'll be using the new Aercor fin on my new 14' Glide unless it's very choppy and only light winds and then I'd use a big 10" dolphin fin.. or my Gladiator.. and I'm thinking about using the a Ninja on my new LEx26 when I get it but I'm thinking about cutting it down so it's shorter.. I'll see what works best.. btw.. The new Naish fin that comes on the 12'6" and 14' boards is a big improvement over their past dagger fin.

Fins are a personal thing.. It's great to see boards these days coming with much better fins on them.. There's been some shockers in the past like the Naish dagger fin and Starboards bamboo hatchet fin.

DJ

if your a elite paddler- go for it




if your not a elite paddler- FORGET IT

Cool thanks for that info DJ all very interesting

Select to expand quote

laceys lane said..

ghost4man said..

AndyR said..

Kai's new race fin vid, just found this on supracer.com
What's people's thoughts?

Things to pick up from this video:

-Kai's top hand is quite high above his head

-Prominent bend at the waist which clearly promotes a very long reach

-Very high cadence

-Very noticeable how he engages his upper torso in a wave like motion

-Very noticeable how the legs and in particular the knees come into play to the extent that it appears to me at any rate that he is pulling himself forward with his legs.

Conclusion: poetry in motion.

Cheers Ozzie

ahh, i haven't watch kai do this, but the abs torso thing is something i've been working on for nearly 2 months. what i've found is your stoke doesn't start at the top. it starts from the finish of your stoke while the paddle is in the water. thats when i now engage my lower abs. as i lift the paddle up my abs 'raise' and roll up under my rib cage.

so when i start to engage my paddle in the water i have a lot of energy/power stored to be released on the 'stoke stage'.

i've notice big improvements at training. when the heats on or on i a can now stay or be in contact with the gun crew. breath control improves too

i rapt to see that vid and watch that carefully.

it does take some disciple for a while because it seems so strange. i've all so notice dw ing this method highly improve balance because your core stability is coming from the right place and your legs a free to do there stuff.

prone paddler do this action to get the reach they need. no wonder they take to sup so well

cheers

ps actually my abs are fully engaged the whole time now

Looking at the video on several occasions I noticed the following as well:

Kai's bottom hand is very low, which is a combination of the extra reach he gets from bending at the knees as well as bending at the waist. If you notice on the through stroke at the beginning, his bottom hand is actually in line with his calf which is below the level of his knees! From this you can gather that he really does engage the entire body and abandons the intuitive notion that ones upper torso should remain upright. This is simply not the case with his motion.

My impression is that Kai remains quite loose in his arms during the entire motion. This becomes important in terms of being able to engage the appropriate muscle groups. So think about it this way: if you tense your arms then you do so at the expense of other parts so the emphasis here is to let go of your attention on engaging the arms thus giving greater weight to using the core. By remaining loose in the arms this also enables a higher cadence which you could not facilitate by being overly tight in that area.

Whilst Kai remains very bent at the waist, he maintains a straight back throughout as well as ensuring that his head remains upright at all times which would in itself enable more efficient breathing. The thing that struck me more than anything however was the rolling or waving motion of his upper torso. He almost seems to uncoil during the reaching out phase of the stroke.

Excellent video which I think a lot of people would do well to look at and mimic.

Do you see anything else Lacey that I havent commented upon mate? Appreciate your insight.

Cheers Ozzie

One thing I found interesting was that Kai used practically no rotation/twisting with the hips and knees in his stroke. His hips and knees remain pointed squarely forward the whole time. Generally speaking, two main sources of power come from hinge-related motion (what Kai uses almost exclusively) and hip rotation (used extensively by some other technique gurus like Larry Cain, Jim Terrell, etc.). Most people use some degree of both. Kai's not getting as much power per stroke as he could since he's not using hip rotation but he gains advantages of faster stroke rate and better balance in rough conditions. When conditions get rough, it's harder to use hip rotation since strong rotation is more likely to cause you to lose balance. Rotation also tends to slow down your stroke rate a bit.

Kai's stroke looks incredibly smooth and powerful and is especially effective for sprinting as seen in the video.

Great idea for the fin as well. It would make me faster - as long as I didn't have to go in a straight line. Or just change sides more often. Could be good on a downwinder.

Select to expand quote

ghost4man said..

laceys lane said..

ghost4man said..

AndyR said..

Kai's new race fin vid, just found this on supracer.com
What's people's thoughts?

Things to pick up from this video:

-Kai's top hand is quite high above his head

-Prominent bend at the waist which clearly promotes a very long reach

-Very high cadence

-Very noticeable how he engages his upper torso in a wave like motion

-Very noticeable how the legs and in particular the knees come into play to the extent that it appears to me at any rate that he is pulling himself forward with his legs.

Conclusion: poetry in motion.

Cheers Ozzie

ahh, i haven't watch kai do this, but the abs torso thing is something i've been working on for nearly 2 months. what i've found is your stoke doesn't start at the top. it starts from the finish of your stoke while the paddle is in the water. thats when i now engage my lower abs. as i lift the paddle up my abs 'raise' and roll up under my rib cage.

so when i start to engage my paddle in the water i have a lot of energy/power stored to be released on the 'stoke stage'.

i've notice big improvements at training. when the heats on or on i a can now stay or be in contact with the gun crew. breath control improves too

i rapt to see that vid and watch that carefully.

it does take some disciple for a while because it seems so strange. i've all so notice dw ing this method highly improve balance because your core stability is coming from the right place and your legs a free to do there stuff.

prone paddler do this action to get the reach they need. no wonder they take to sup so well

cheers

ps actually my abs are fully engaged the whole time now

Looking at the video on several occasions I noticed the following as well:

Kai's bottom hand is very low, which is a combination of the extra reach he gets from bending at the knees as well as bending at the waist. If you notice on the through stroke at the beginning, his bottom hand is actually in line with his calf which is below the level of his knees! From this you can gather that he really does engage the entire body and abandons the intuitive notion that ones upper torso should remain upright. This is simply not the case with his motion.

My impression is that Kai remains quite loose in his arms during the entire motion. This becomes important in terms of being able to engage the appropriate muscle groups. So think about it this way: if you tense your arms then you do so at the expense of other parts so the emphasis here is to let go of your attention on engaging the arms thus giving greater weight to using the core. By remaining loose in the arms this also enables a higher cadence which you could not facilitate by being overly tight in that area.

Whilst Kai remains very bent at the waist, he maintains a straight back throughout as well as ensuring that his head remains upright at all times which would in itself enable more efficient breathing. The thing that struck me more than anything however was the rolling or waving motion of his upper torso. He almost seems to uncoil during the reaching out phase of the stroke.

Excellent video which I think a lot of people would do well to look at and mimic.

Do you see anything else Lacey that I havent commented upon mate? Appreciate your insight.

Cheers Ozzie

hi, same as the guy said above. i think if your really using your ab's ,hip rotation become near impossible. i was never one for it even when i was advised to. to me it seems like your breaking the core or your shape - kinda thing. to me there's more power to developed from a strong frontal position use core/abs rather then 'break' by rotating the hips i believe you still have shoulder rotation. loose hands-yes. if you are really gripping the paddle hard it tends to transfer into your arms too, which isn't very strong compared to your torso.

'short' muscles are made for repetition- long muscles aren't.


to be honest kelly margetts has been telling us at training for a long time, but i never really fully understood it and took it on board till recently.

high cadence and controlled breathing using your ab's like 'kai' takes some practise, but being able to tap into a high stroke rate when needed is a pretty cool thing

when i first started high cadence paddle training it took me a little while to get it. to find the right angle of attack. because first up i felt like i was paddling all arms

I saw the pic that came out from the BOP that had Kai and the funny looking fin and I thought maybe we should be experimenting with fins. Just to put this all into context, I am not a big believer in just doing stuff because an elite athlete does it. As a matter of fact I think that most normal grade sportspeople can actually go backwards trying to imitate an elite athlete.

So I thought maybe if I just used a smaller fin in my Fanatic 14 I might see some improvement. So I grabbed my 170mm Starboard surf fin that was hanging around the garage and went off to paddle. What did I notice. My board speed was way faster, I was averaging 8.6km per hour and that was up from a normal sort of 8-8.2km per hour. This speed was held over 5k (well actually my fitness came into play and I started to die on the third km). Turning on the board was insane, the turning radius around the buoys was so fast, which I think helped my overall time and board speed reading on the GPS.

The downside to all this is that directionally the board is a bit harder to keep going in a straight line, but I think that is just a case of getting used to the smaller fin. So I am now officially a believer and I will be ordering the Kai super fin, cause I think in this case even a hacker like myself will notice the change in performance.

I love fins.. This new Kai fin has caught my attention.. I like the idea.. but IMO there's a few things I don't like or could be made better.. Dont't like the point on the tip so it will catch instead of drag when it does touch.. I don't like the point at the rear.. I'm not a fan of points on fins because they are dangerous enough without having points.. and I'd like to see a little more area in the tip of the fin because that's the area that's working for you the most.. After giving all this some thought I've come up with a DJ version and I'm hoping that John from Glide fins in Torquay will make it for me.. It should work well on my 12'6" Glide because tracking and tippy are not issues on that board.. I'm hoping it might even work on my new 14'x26" LE Jav that I have on order..

The DJ race fin..

DJ

Select to expand quote

DavidJohn said...
I love fins.. This new Kai fin has caught my attention.. I like the idea.. but IMO there's a few things I don't like or could be made better.. Dont't like the point on the tip so it will catch instead of drag when it does touch.. I don't like the point at the rear.. I'm not a fan of points on fins because they are dangerous enough without having points.. and I'd like to see a little more area in the tip of the fin because that's the area that's working for you the most.. After giving all this some thought I've come up with a DJ version and I'm hoping that John from Glide fins in Torquay will make it for me.. It should work well on my 12'6" Glide because tracking and tippy are not issues on that board.. I'm hoping it might even work on my new 14'x26" LE Jav that I have on order..

The DJ race fin..

DJ

Ha.. Interesting.. Do they only make those in FCS side fins?

Just checked.. Looks like they do but with the biggest being only 4.9" I'm thinking that's a bit small for a sup race board.

I'm thinking absolute 6" min.

DJ

Some of the local guys use these in there performance sups. I'm pretty sure they come with a sliding centre. Multiple sizes too. Haven't use them myself but the large are like big twinnies

hey guys i would be interested in a centre box c drive fin if you can find them

dj you make good 'point' about the points on that fin. with bop races being held in big conditions and injuries starting to come through. collisions are part and parcel and is encouraged. a sharp pointed fin could do some real damage.

maybe some rules need to come like the clubby board fins that must be blunt or something

I've made a slight change to my fin design..

DJ

One of these might be handy

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rager said..

One of these might be handy

Maybe.. Except those C drive fins are a bit too small IMO..

DJ

Cant beat a few million years of evolution