In another thread, estingo was asking a question on the difference between some Gong boards, but I think this is not specific to the Gong brand, and deserves its own subject: (I will only speak of Gong models, as they are the ones I know best, but you can apply it to most brands lines)

What are the differences between boards designed for horizontal and vertical surfing?

Basically, SUP "shortboards" (as opposed to longboard SUPs) can be classified in 2 categories, depending if they favor:
- Horizontal surfing, such as cutbacks where you stay roughly on the same height on the wave during the turn and want to maximize glide and speed.
- Vertical surfing, where you want to go straight up & down the face for radical rollers, and want to tighten the trajectory to the max at the expense of speed: you can see how rider "pinch" the tail at the end of the bottom turn to force the board to suddenly get vertical.

In the Gong line, the Mob and Karmen are designed for Horizontal surfing, the Fatal and Alley for vertical surfing. And Mob and Fatal are shorter so more adapted to slower/smaller waves, while Karmen and Alley to faster/bigger waves.

"Vertical" boards are less stable, as stability will prevent the board to rock 'n roll quickly to tighten the curves to the max to go vertical. This is done by plenty of shape details: curved outline, pulled-in nose and tail, centered volume, thin rails at nose an tail, more rocker... When you put your foot off-center on a vertical board, you expect it to react a lot by rotating longitudinally (rocking) and/or laterally (rolling). Vertical boards are the ones you see people use most of the time in contests, unless in hellish conditions.

"Horizontal" boards are more stable: When you put your foot off-center you expect the board to resist and the result is that your force will "squeeze" the board on he water and translate this push in an added burst of speed for a carving turn instead of braking and whipping the board full vertical. Fishes and SImmons are examples of Horizontal shapes.

The problem in chop is that a "Vertical" board will also react a lot to pushes by the chop as well as with your feet. And even more if they are short. What will happen is when the nose hits a chop, it will rock more the board than an "Horizontal" board, slowing you and putting you off balance. But more experienced riders will still manage a Vertical board by anticipating more the chop, and being able to correct things easier, as it will react quickly to their input.

Basically, after the first steps on a big, longboard-like board, you want continue your surfing progression on Horizontal boards, and only attempt Vertical boards when you feel ready to begin trading stability for performance. (as a guesstimate, it takes roughly 2 years for many people) And It is nice to have both in your quiver, anyways, even if they are similar in dimensions.

I would add that you do not need to "progress" to Vertical boards. Horizontal boards work in all conditions, and will be help you tackle all conditions: their speed and stability will help make fast sections, have the speed for carving turns, etc... They can be your trusted functional companion(s) that you can rely on and enjoy all the time.

Surfing Vertical boards is akin to "showing off", to put you in critical places and displaying your expertise. It is fun, but it is in no way mandatory to be a competent and happy surfer.

Thank you Colas for opening this new thread!

It makes more sense to me to place the "pro" boards that are in general narrower in the "vertical" category even though there come a lot more shape options to play for a "vertical" board than just the width. So my drop down after 2 years of an all wave 9'0 @ 159 liters (Horizontal board) to a Gong Fatal 7'6 @ 120 liters (Vertical board) was even after the guestimate from Colas for me a too big step. I didn't want to sell it and I learned it the hard way and I didn't had joy in supping because I was just trying to balance this "thing" after a half a year, watching clips and reading on lateral balance did I managed to enjoy the fatal and wasn't it burden for me anymore to take it.

but when I was having a session and someone asked if he could try the Fatal and in return did I got my hands on a Naish 8'3 with 130 liters was if for me clear I want something like that, 29 fewer liters as the all wave but just as stable and not worrying about this stability thing. To put it in the metaphor perspective was that a "horizontal" board (the Naish).

Now back to my current quiver, I have the Quatro 8'0 x 28,5 which is a "vertical" board and not very well for choppy conditions, even though I think if you practice well and get used to it, it's do-able but again the slighly fun factor is dropping because you need to focus on balancing that thing rather than surfing it. Which will result in a much tiring session then when on a Horizontal board, however on the wave it's better to be always on the "vertical" board. So I can 100% agree that I'm trading the stability for performance.

My "horizontal" board for wind and choppy conditions is the 7'10 x 32" it's so stable and I am very comfortable on it, just like the feeling I had on the all wave. Before this one I had the RRD Cosmo pro 8'5 x 32" with 130 liters, awesome looking board with wings and nice carbon finish but it was a bit too stable, I had the feeling I was standing "above" the water. Didn't want to sell it but I did, got the Naish for it.

Now looking at a third option, that's what this thread started off at the Sunova Speeed, to consider if it's my third option, longer, narrower, etc. But as it is a more "vertical" board do I think it's maybe not the one I'm looking for. Maybe I just need to test it in Dutch choppy waves and see what it gives to my experience. Anyway, I believe my third option should be a "horizontal" one that still is fun enough to take.

Again thanks for all the rising questions that I have and I hope I could share my thought on my search using the words, idea, and theory of Colas.

slsurf said..
How about someone like Moritz Mauch on a lower volume karmen (more carving shape) getting vertical? Not sure how much stability he gains from the shape at that size, maybe more range of waves. Definitely small board with pulled in nose tail is easiest for vertical and hardest to stand on. For most short wide is the way to go for sharper turns, I briefly tried a 6'10 mini simmons version and it was super turney not much carve and easy to stand on.

Do you think it takes 2 years practice using a small "vertical" board to get good standing balance and paddling or do you mean 2 years of sup surfing total?

As always, it is not clear cut. A pro rider will be able to go vertical with an horizontal board, and make fast sections with a vertical board. And the Karmen is not as "Horizontal" as say a Mob, it is a bit more like a kind of hybrid.
And a pro may not fall a lot in chop on a vertical board, but he can get more quickly tired, and paddle less efficiently.

I was thinking 2 years of being at ease really surfing on an horizontal board, let's say under the 1.3 guild factor (ratio board volume in liters / rider weight in kg). At least that's what I needed with 2 to 3 sessions per week. For instance I consider the 9'0" 159 liters board that estingo mention is for his weight still a beginner board, it was too early to go directly to a vertical board from it.

Also, A vertical board will need to be pumped in turns to generate speed, and will amplify mistakes, so it is not just a question of paddling stability, you also need to properly surf a board, with a good flexion/extension of the body in turns. Otherwise it will just hamper your progression.

estingo said..
Thank you Colas for opening this new thread!

It makes more sense to me to place the "pro" boards that are in general narrower in the "vertical" category even though there come a lot more shape options to play for a "vertical" board than just the width. So my drop down after 2 years of an all wave 9'0 @ 159 liters (Horizontal board) to a Gong Fatal 7'6 @ 120 liters (Vertical board) was even after the guestimate from Colas for me a too big step. I didn't want to sell it and I learned it the hard way and I didn't had joy in supping because I was just trying to balance this "thing" after a half a year, watching clips and reading on lateral balance did I managed to enjoy the fatal and wasn't it burden for me anymore to take it.

but when I was having a session and someone asked if he could try the Fatal and in return did I got my hands on a Naish 8'3 with 130 liters was if for me clear I want something like that, 29 fewer liters as the all wave but just as stable and not worrying about this stability thing. To put it in the metaphor perspective was that a "horizontal" board (the Naish).

Now back to my current quiver, I have the Quatro 8'0 x 28,5 which is a "vertical" board and not very well for choppy conditions, even though I think if you practice well and get used to it, it's do-able but again the slighly fun factor is dropping because you need to focus on balancing that thing rather than surfing it. Which will result in a much tiring session then when on a Horizontal board, however on the wave it's better to be always on the "vertical" board. So I can 100% agree that I'm trading the stability for performance.

My "horizontal" board for wind and choppy conditions is the 7'10 x 32" it's so stable and I am very comfortable on it, just like the feeling I had on the all wave. Before this one I had the RRD Cosmo pro 8'5 x 32" with 130 liters, awesome looking board with wings and nice carbon finish but it was a bit too stable, I had the feeling I was standing "above" the water. Didn't want to sell it but I did, got the Naish for it.

Now looking at a third option, that's what this thread started off at the Sunova Speeed, to consider if it's my third option, longer, narrower, etc. But as it is a more "vertical" board do I think it's maybe not the one I'm looking for. Maybe I just need to test it in Dutch choppy waves and see what it gives to my experience. Anyway, I believe my third option should be a "horizontal" one that still is fun enough to take.

Again thanks for all the rising questions that I have and I hope I could share my thought on my search using the words, idea, and theory of Colas.

Always good to respond to your own reactions. Anyway, I'm down to find my third option for a "horizontal" board, check out the options:

So what have we got here, from left to right:
- RRD Cotan 7'6 x 28" 110 liters 6,9 kg
- Gong Mob 7'6 x 29,8" 105 liters 6,4 kg
- Redwoodpaddle 7'6 x 30.5" 115 liters 8,2 kg
- Redwoodpaddle7'1 x 30" 100 liters 7,7kg
- SPG 3D Comp 8'0 x 29" 106 liters ??kg
- Kazuma Tanto 7'4 x 30" 105 liters ??kg
(www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/Kazuma-Tanto?page=1)
- Sunova Shroom 7'9 x 30" 105 liters 7,6 kg
(www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/Sunova-Shroom-3?page=1#9)
- F-one Papenoo 7'7 x 29" 110 liters 7,7kg
- custom Hypernut7'2 x 28,3"96liters 7-8kg?
- custom SPG7'6 x 29"102liters 7-8kg?

After multiple times of emailing and sending messages with a lot of experienced suppersdid we made some conclusions. The Tomo shape will work good in in Dutch choppy waves with a period of max 6 to 7 seconds. How wider the tail the more stable the board wil be, together with the Parallel rails. Volume would be the best around the same as my Quatro so between 105 - 110 liters.
To make this list are credits to Colas, Kami and Reuben.

Curious if there are any other recommendations out there? or experiences that I missed on this forum here

Just been checking out the Gong range, pretty impressed actually with the way boards are explained in detail and more over the detail of everything. Pricing after conversion to aud is very impressive as well, not sure how it would pan out after transportation but I suspect it would still give the big boys a run for their money.
really like the look of the 7'8" Karmen in carbon.
Sorry don't mean to divert to making this about gong but it looks so damn good.

colas said..
Nice list!

I will just add that you should not focus only on having a square nose end. Horizontal boards can also have wide but still rounded noses (or semi-pulled-in), trading a bit of stability for better paddling speed and turning radius. It is really the fast rocker, parallel rails, spread out volume distribution and powerful tail that makes a horizontal board. For instance in the Gong line the Fatal and Mob behave quite differently, although they could seem similar from their outline.

Thanks Colas!

And I think I understand, for instance, I'm also considering a Jimmy Lewis Detroyer 8'0 30" @ 115 liter as I had the feeling that there is also a wide nose and more a board that can do it all kind of thing. I'm not only watching Tomo/stubby shape sups but I have to say I get indeed more attracted to it. Your comparison with the Fatal and the Mob is something that I would really want to find out for myself even though I believe it immediately if you say so.

estingo said..
I'm also considering a Jimmy Lewis Detroyer 8'0 30" @ 115 liter as I had the feeling that there is also a wide nose and more a board that can do it all kind of thing.

Yes, the longboard rockers packed into a short length (sub-8') make great horizontal boards: you get the glide of the shape plus the nimbleness of the short length.

Board update, I found a new Hypernut 7'8 x 30" @115 liters for a decent price that I had to buy and try out (not the pro version). The length is maybe still a bit longer compared to the boards that I have listed a while ago and the volume is good between my other boards.

I have only one surf in clean conditions with shoulder-high waves so I can't really judge too much other than it's a nice fast board. You have to adjust a little with catching a wave because of its stubby nose but not that I missed a wave because of the shape. After some waves in will I review it over here: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Review/Hypernut-7-8--review?page=1#4

Comparision pictures of my quiver:
Quatro carve pro 8'0 x 28,5" @109 liters vs Starboard Hypernut 7'8 x 30" @115 liters

Naish Hokua 7'10 x 32" @121 liters vs Starboard Hypernut 7'8 x 30" @115 liters