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Adrian Roper said..

Piros said..
Yes true we have far from ideal conditions , did my first real DW with Jacko & Marcus both very very good at it , they left me for dead , I'm still learning and was on the GF 280 it was really windy Northerly but ****ty . I found the gaint GF 280 really hard in the cross chop it was stopping me from getting on BUT with practice it does get easier , I would rather something bit smaller so I can balance easier to start the pump .

But agree for bigger guys (I'm 83kg) and marginal conditions biggest is best.

I suspect a lot of your problem was mast flex and not being connected to the front wing, so loosing control or ability to actually drive the big wing. I know that you have less swell to downwind but the guys in Maui use the 820 and 920 only for downwind, never the 1020 as they feel it is too slow and too much lift. Remember that most of the rigs out there use the 15mm kite mast which kind of worked for a 530mm wide wing span. The wider the span the more the mast becomes an issue.

The flex is not good but not really the main problem, it's just a time thing for learning DW. I have used the 280 alot for DW and even with the flex it works fine and maybe only at top speeds it really becomes a issue.

Trying to learn DW on to small a wing is impossible for 99% of people unless of course you live in Maui and it blows 30 knots everyday. Everywhere i travel i talk to people struggling to DW and the one reason is they get talked into to small of wing for the first part of the learning curve.

It's easy to blame the flex but really i have used the flexy Gofoil and can DW fine on it, would it be better if it was stiffer? yes of course but everyone is still learning and the wing size is the main thing for this right now.

Piros will get it he just needs to pick the right days and get his timing better and stay on the big wing for now, i can 100% say if he tries using a smaller wing with a stiffer shaft he will paddle his 7ft board the whole way dragging the wing.

Jacko Said:- i can 100% say if he tries using a smaller wing with a stiffer shaft he will paddle his 7ft board the whole way dragging the wing.

Haha already done that , I hear you Jacko I'll give the 280 another crack .

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Adrian Roper said..

another way to think about it, get the 1020 AXIS, maybe not big enough for your weight to downwind in small bumps, but at least you have a setup that you can surf on and learn . New wings will come and there will be more options in the future. At least you will have a solid setup to learn to drive on

I have a setup that I can surf on and learn already, I want something that I can learn to downwind as easily as possible on.

I guess I have 3 choices, put in the hard yards learning on something like the Axis 1020 or Naish Thrust XL, get the big Go Foil (complete with bendy mast) or wait and see what other options come up.

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tightlines said..

Adrian Roper said..

another way to think about it, get the 1020 AXIS, maybe not big enough for your weight to downwind in small bumps, but at least you have a setup that you can surf on and learn . New wings will come and there will be more options in the future. At least you will have a solid setup to learn to drive on

I have a setup that I can surf on and learn already, I want something that I can learn to downwind as easily as possible on.

I guess I have 3 choices, put in the hard yards learning on something like the Axis 1020 or Naish Thrust XL, get the big Go Foil (complete with bendy mast) or wait and see what other options come up.

Testing the new Gong Allvator - its huge and pretty well priced - I dont have the skills to say how good it is yet

"This wing, in size L (1675cm2 projected area, 1925cm2 developped), with a thick profil (volume: 3,12L) has a very good lift since low speed. This setting is perfect for beginner and intermediate foilers as it allows great carving and playful character without the high speed reached by pro foilers."

The quality is OK - I rode it with a kite as theres no swell at present - its certainly slow and you can really pump it ( compared to the Naish large)

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icharus said..
The quality is OK - I rode it with a kite as theres no swell at present - its certainly slow and you can really pump it ( compared to the Naish large)

Note that you can enhance its speed (a bit) and "pumpability" (more than a bit) - at the expense of some stability - by using the kite stabilizer instead of the SUP/Surf one.

Not to divert the thread but can someone post a review of that Gong foil? I'm curious about it as the price, even with shipping to the US is pretty incredible. We need a demo unit here in SoCal. (I'm happy to host it of course.) ;)

But seriously who's ridden it, start a thread please.

Bump - this is way too useful a thread - perhapssome kind souls can update it

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surfcowboy said..
Not to divert the thread but can someone post a review of that Gong foil? I'm curious about it as the price, even with shipping to the US is pretty incredible. We need a demo unit here in SoCal. (I'm happy to host it of course.) ;)

But seriously who's ridden it, start a thread please.

I am also very interested, just ordered a kite from them.

Agreed, it would be great to make this thread stick & update as necessary.

I have been riding the 80 for a few months now. I have limited access to decent surf - but practise a lot with a kite to make sure I have it nailed. I like it a lot. I have a large collection of foils and would rate this one pretty highly. I am pretty crap at surf foiling - as sup is completely new to me but when I do get it on a wave it works very well.

I have also been using the 80cm Gong foil for several months. It has been great to learn on with plenty of lift (once I dialled in my foot positioning). It is stable, gives great feedback before breaching and is plenty fast enough for me. Comparing it to my Chinese Takuma clone foil it is far superior. I have ordered one of Gong's new XXL 100cm wings and will probably invest in one of their 90cm wings as well. I will try and weigh my foil in the next few days. I think it will be similar to the big name foils. They are great value for money, spares are easy to get hold of and Gong have always been a pleasure to deal with. Check out their forum for more feedback/info.

I'm Mainly into sup and prone foiling in the surf and Never really got into the downwinding thing as I've always felt well under gunned with my setup and our conditions here in Jervis bay..
Have been lucky enough to be lent the axis 102 for a week now and OMG 10-12knots in the bay with no swell and it's up and away Paddling in on the sup..
I'm pretty light at 70kgs but downwinding in 12 knot chop is defiantly not a issue..

Yeah for DW the Axis 1020 cream of the crop .

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coxy31 said..
I'm Mainly into sup and prone foiling in the surf and Never really got into the downwinding thing as I've always felt well under gunned with my setup and our conditions here in Jervis bay..
Have been lucky enough to be lent the axis 102 for a week now and OMG 10-12knots in the bay with no swell and it's up and away Paddling in on the sup..
I'm pretty light at 70kgs but downwinding in 12 knot chop is defiantly not a issue..

Hey Brad, merry Christmas
Saw the Axis range at Merimbula last month when Adrian Roper had them all laid out to see. Wasn't good conditions to try them, but was impressed with the design features and quality so I ordered a selection of surf/SUP foils and some boards. Didn't order a 1020 foil as I wasn't sure who would want one on Jervis Bay. Sounds like it will be in the next order!

Did you just paddle out in to the bay for the downwinder or get dropped off upwind? Keen to try myself but not keen to paddle out or find someone to drop me off. Was thinking about a really small foil kite I could use to get out into the bay in good downwind conditions then pack it up and paddle onto the wind chop.
Must catch up over summer, have fun, Dave (Dr Surf)

You really need good wind and swell to learn to DW , having a backpack full of wet gear will make it impossible to learn. The hardest part is actually paddling onto the swell . 10 times harder then you imagine and don't be surprised for the first couple of DW attempts you catch nothing plus it's absolutely exhausting so keep the runs short. A good little tester is to catch a wave out the back and then pump out into the swell line and get a few shirt runs , this is how the prone guys are doing it and just walk back and repeat.

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Piros said..
Yeah for DW the Axis 1020 cream of the crop .

they're good, but not all the cream

I'd be interested to know where the more experienced folk would put the Naish L and XL, compared to the Go foils and Axis wings? Just going on surface area, (projected) the Naish appear to be smaller. I know there is more to it and I've only had the XL wing (1572 cm sq) I've only had out a few times, but it feels huge compared to the L (1236 cm sq).
So is the XL equivalent to something like the Iwa (1700 cm sq) ? or is the L more equivalent, because surface area is only part of the equation?

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Mwstard said..
I'd be interested to know where the more experienced folk would put the Naish L and XL, compared to the Go foils and Axis wings? Just going on surface area, (projected) the Naish appear to be smaller. I know there is more to it and I've only had the XL wing (1572 cm sq) I've only had out a few times, but it feels huge compared to the L (1236 cm sq).
So is the XL equivalent to something like the Iwa (1700 cm sq) ? or is the L more equivalent, because surface area is only part of the equation?

Just bumping this. Naish, Go Foil and Axis are some of the most popular foils. It would be great to hear some thoughts from those that have used them.

It would be good to see a photo of the Naish XL next to the GoFoil M200 or Axis 1020 for comparison too.

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gybeski said..

Mwstard said..
I'd be interested to know where the more experienced folk would put the Naish L and XL, compared to the Go foils and Axis wings? Just going on surface area, (projected) the Naish appear to be smaller. I know there is more to it and I've only had the XL wing (1572 cm sq) I've only had out a few times, but it feels huge compared to the L (1236 cm sq).
So is the XL equivalent to something like the Iwa (1700 cm sq) ? or is the L more equivalent, because surface area is only part of the equation?

Just bumping this. Naish, Go Foil and Axis are some of the most popular foils. It would be great to hear some thoughts from those that have used them.

It would be good to see a photo of the Naish XL next to the GoFoil M200 or Axis 1020 for comparison too.

Hey Gybeski

From what I have seen the Naish XL is around the the same size as the Axis 82cm wing in surface area. The GoFoil M200 and Axis 92cm are around the same size. The Axis 102cm is almost the same width as the GoFoil 280 but has a thinner cord, the GF280 gets up a little earlier but the Axis has way more top speed.

Thanks. Sounds like Naish need an XXL in their range.

They have.
aspect ratio: 5:1
wingspan: 100 cm
surface area: 1954 cm2

JB & Andy from Windgenuity have used it extensively.

A few South Aussies have checked this XXL front wing out.

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ShaneOC said..
They have.
aspect ratio: 5:1
wingspan: 100 cm
surface area: 1954 cm2

JB & Andy from Windgenuity have used it extensively.

A few South Aussies have checked this XXL front wing out.

Sounds awesome. I think I'll have to get one. Can't see it listed anywhere though. I'm in QLD.

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gybeski said..
Thanks. Sounds like Naish need an XXL in their range.

They do have a XXL.

www.instagram.com/p/BsTYoasFfBl/?utm_source=ig_share_sheet&igshid=jkk3x049r9kl

Looks like the cat is out of the bag

Yes, Naish have build a XXL. It is essentially a 2020 model wing that a few of us have managed to bribe Robby to let us have for 2019 Season.

There is limited stock of these wings available now through your local Naish Dealer. To help with deciding, I thought I'd take a second to run through the differences, as certain wings will appeal to different people for different reasons.

Let's start with the current focus point, the XXL. This wing is big, at 100cm wide, it covers a lot of real estate. And although it states 1954cm2 of projected area, looks bigger than Malliko 200 when you put them on top of each other. This wing is primarily a down winding wing. It delivers mind blowing lift at super low speeds (I can fly high and stable at 13kmph+/-) and is still controllable into the mid and high 20's. There is limitations as far as use in waves as it does not like steep or breaking waves at all. The sheer leverage and lift of a wing like this does not make it suitable for general every day surf foiling. Swell riding and ocean DW foiling are this wings forte'. Although it is rideable in some of these conditions, a quick ride back on its little brother and you will quickly admire a reinvigorated relationship for your XL or L. The XXL (in my opinion should only be ridden with the XL rear).

Next down the line is the XL. This wings design is to deliver the best lift to grab ratio. And this it does. It has a specific feel which is different to the Large and can take some getting used to, but for a wing that can easily ride waves, turn quite hard, flat water pump and loop pump as well as DW Foil. It really is a real world type of wing. It;s speed range is higher than the XXL making it far more suitable for actual wave/swells, and you will enjoy riding consistently in the 20's and maxing out in the upper end of the 30's kmph. Also to this wings adaptability is the tuning of the rear wing. I usually ride the XL with the STD rear wing in generally most surfing conditions. I tend to use the XL for DW or when there is lots of pumping required. I also find trimming the rear wing upwards (to create more lift response) works well with the wing. I suggest using 1mm up as a starting point and riding as high as full lock up depending on your weight and skill level. Possibly one of those wings (along with the Large) that if you had to travel with just one wing, it would be your best option.

The Large is next in order, and probably (again in my opinion) the best wing in the line up. This is the wing I rode this morning even though it was under knee high and onshore slop. The Large is so loose, fast and delivers punch at call lift. The wing also amazes with a stunning low end speed, not too far off the XL, but boasts a scary top end speed of how big are your balls! I have clocked just short of 44kmph on GPS and likely faster without. Turns on this wing will make you think you're riding at an amusement park, delivering mind blowing G-Forces and carve arcs that would impress any shortboarder. Still perfectly suited for pump arounds to those that can un-weight and have good technique, your laps will be fast and cadence high. Given that I have all the wings in my quiver, I would say that my top 10 best glides have all been on the Large. Along with its little brother, the large offer up performance like no other. And as mentioned above, if you had to travel with one wing, this would be one definitely for consideration.

The Medium is really the gun of the line up. And many turn away from it as it's not for the guy that just wants to sit on a slow angle and float across the ocean in a straight line. The Medium is action packed and ready for action. Amazingly fast and capable of turns and riding waves that are definitely unrideable on other foils, this foils can easily out performance anything. Somewhat like a top shortboard, it does take a little more input but the pay back is epic. Pump arounds are totally possible on this wing, but you have to keep your speed up. Not the wing to learn pump arounds on. But if you love to carve, enjoy going fast and riding in a more shortboard like manner, this is the wing for you. You will notice that the most impressive riders around are riding medium wings as their go to wing (Such as the East Coast Foil Club).

I hope this helps a little, as I know there is a lot of pressure for everyone to just go straight to the biggest wing you can find. While this is a good option of a small few of you, it's likely not the best option to get you where you want/need to be.

In conclusion,

- XXL - Essentially the Wing for down wind foiling. Down wind foiling is difficult, and not as easy as grabbing a large wing and off you go. It takes a lot of foil knowledge, skills and tones of fitness. Not an ideal option for foil surfing.
- XL - The Real world wave and mutli crossover option. Ticking the boxes in every category. Easy to use, fun to surf, stable and DW'able.
- L - Still my favourite. Performance to boot! Every time I go back from riding bigger wings I fall in love with it.
- M - Mind blowing performance. If I were a tad lighter, this would be my goto wing.

Please note the above is just a loose guide and not a bible. You can foil anything in any condition. But when you ride the right wing in the right conditions, the fun/stoke level is much higher.

Please get in contact with you local Naish Dealer for more info,

Kind regards

JB

Thanks JB for breakdown of the Naish foil range - I'd comment that consideration of riders weight is perhaps most important in deciding which foil (size) suits you. Big guys can and are surfing the bigger wings and vice versa.

Really helpful and fits with my limited experience of the L and XL. Have been surprised at how different they are in use.
Need to put more time in on the XL, but the L just feels "right" so pretty much always go with that. Thanks.

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PeterP said..
Thanks JB for breakdown of the Naish foil range - I'd comment that consideration of riders weight is perhaps most important in deciding which foil (size) suits you. Big guys can and are surfing the bigger wings and vice versa.

Hey Peter, yes big guys and small guys alike are "riding" big wings for "surfing". The main point I make is, the actual style of riding is still driven by the wing and model to a very large extent. Essentially you can technically ride anything and call is surfing/Foilsurfing. But certain wings are far more fun when put in the correct application. I like to use the analogy of surf craft with wing sizes (kind of regardless of your size),

Naish M - The performance shortboard. Mind blowing speeds and near limitless potential for those willing to put in the effort and have the skills.

Naish L - The Performance Fish or Stepdown Shorty. Bridging the gap between required rider input and effort with amazing performance (especially for bigger guys).

Naish XL - The Mini Mal or Performance Mal. A generous return of performance for less work. Great for the cruiser rider. Lots of lift and good turns at call.

Naish XXL - The logger or raceboard. Sometimes fun top surf in tiny conditions, but really designed for riding swells and DW'ing.

I guess what I am trying to get across is that is your intention in foiling is power turns and fast riding, buying the correct setup will help in reducing multiple purchases down the track (A bit like buying a longboard to learn to shortboard, you're going to end up disappointed). However, certainly a multiple wing quiver is the ultimate to cover more bases. But I certainly find the L and M far more exciting than the XL or XXL when it comes to surfing. But the XL and XXL offer up better pumping and Down Winding. But all wings can doo everything under the correct feet.

Ride safe,

JB

Some really interesting info here about wing design. Now I'm 'winging' this but my interpretation is that a line between different designs is drawn for Naish between the thrust large and XL and for Gofoil between the Iwa and the Maliko 200. As I understand, the higher aspect wings above that line just dont really feel right/fun for surfing 'rail to rail'. What about Axis foils though? arent they all higher aspect? yet the smaller ones all look like theyre good in the waves. So is the reason that the bigger foils dont surf as nice down more to the size or the aspect/design? I'm guessing the answer is a combination of both but seeing higher aspect wings (like Axis) surf really well in the smaller sizes suggests its more down to the size.

At the moment there's little overlap in wing design... perhaps in future naish will have a low aspect surf wing with more surface area than their smallest high aspect 'downwind' wing. Maybe thrust XL and XXL needs a different model name to the medium and Large. Same with gofoil... perhaps they'll end up with something in the maliko range thats smaller than the IWA

I use the naish large on a 6'5" SUP mainly, sometimes 4'6" prone. I'm also pretty light (68kg). I often think about getting a bigger wing but perhaps thats because like lots here, we're all a bit obsessed with new gear. The question I ask myself is "but why though?" because if I manage to get onto anything resembling a wave I always have plenty of lift with the large. Either I'm on a wave with plenty of lift or I'm pumping (or attempting) to pump to the next one. Sounds like based on what has been said above, a little bit more pump ability from a bigger wing is going to affect carving and fun too much to warrant it... particularly at my weight. In other words, lift on the wave (no matter how small) is never the issue. Sounds like if your light to medium weight and want to carve hard then youve got to decide whether you want to be a foil surfer or a foil pumper

Great analogy. Thanks. Foiling seems to be developing very quickly, and there are many different types of foil coming out, so it's hard to keep up. But I love all the options and the challenge of something new.

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mattllew said..
Some really interesting info here about wing design. Now I'm 'winging' this but my interpretation is that a line between different designs is drawn for Naish between the thrust large and XL and for Gofoil between the Iwa and the Maliko 200. As I understand, the higher aspect wings above that line just dont really feel right/fun for surfing 'rail to rail'. What about Axis foils though? arent they all higher aspect? yet the smaller ones all look like theyre good in the waves. So is the reason that the bigger foils dont surf as nice down more to the size or the aspect/design? I'm guessing the answer is a combination of both but seeing higher aspect wings (like Axis) surf really well in the smaller sizes suggests its more down to the size.

At the moment there's little overlap in wing design... perhaps in future naish will have a low aspect surf wing with more surface area than their smallest high aspect 'downwind' wing. Maybe thrust XL and XXL needs a different model name to the medium and Large. Same with gofoil... perhaps they'll end up with something in the maliko range thats smaller than the IWA

I use the naish large on a 6'5" SUP mainly, sometimes 4'6" prone. I'm also pretty light (68kg). I often think about getting a bigger wing but perhaps thats because like lots here, we're all a bit obsessed with new gear. The question I ask myself is "but why though?" because if I manage to get onto anything resembling a wave I always have plenty of lift with the large. Either I'm on a wave with plenty of lift or I'm pumping (or attempting) to pump to the next one. Sounds like based on what has been said above, a little bit more pump ability from a bigger wing is going to affect carving and fun too much to warrant it... particularly at my weight. In other words, lift on the wave (no matter how small) is never the issue. Sounds like if your light to medium weight and want to carve hard then youve got to decide whether you want to be a foil surfer or a foil pumper

Hey Mattlew,

I don't want to you to think that going larger than the Large will stop the carving of the foil, but imagine it like a sliding scale. This is pretty much with all things, as you gain in one category, you have to give up something else. Bigger wings a re good for pumping and smaller wings a good for carving at speed and the scale slides in between. Now this will obviously vary dependant on conditions you ride, weight of the rider and so on. But if you're loaded on a Large and do not need any more lift and main focus in foiling is carving, then the Large is ideally your perfect wing. I you really want to do more pumping and linking up, then an XL would be a worthy addition to you quiver.

The higher aspect discussion is a little more complex, but in essence, bigger wings need to get higher aspect to reduce drag, otherwise the drag coefficient becomes too high and the wings a dog. But in general with higher aspects you have less manoeuvrability and stability per area than a lower aspect but greater speed. But again, this is all very generalised and there is so many factors at play.

As I've likely mentioned. I do ride XL and XXL wings quite a bit, but I am also riding a lot of waves that are not breaking, and doing a lot of pumping around as well as DW foiling. As soon as get back on my Large wing, I remember that buzz and hence still think it is my favourite wing (I also like the Medium, but mainly when there's a bit more push).

Your last line kind of sums it up! And as I put it above. Do you want to ride like a longboarder or a shortboarder. Both styles are achievable to a degree on any wing, but some wings are definitely better suited and higher performing for the job.

Ride safe,

JB