With the skinny boards changing the game in so many ways, what to use in the Surf now? Modified DW style board-6'8*26*6?
My short/wide/high volume SUP feel like dogs after using a skinny board.

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martyman said..
With the skinny boards changing the game in so many ways, what to use in the Surf now? Modified DW style board-6'8*26*6?
My short/wide/high volume SUP feel like dogs after using a skinny board.

Yep ... I am chasing that too .. with no success so far.

I have a 7'10 x 19 110 l Barracuda style board ... and the glide into waves is very addictive ... but ... whilst they surf better then expected ... the novelty wears off surfing them as they are pretty ordinary on a wave compared to a dedicated surf foil sup.

I did a 6'6 x 21 95 l cudda style .... and the glide was all but gone.

Have not been able to find any production board that comes close. Had the 5'10 Egg and it was fun on a wave, but for me the wave had to be peaking to paddle in. Can't drive on to it like have got used to with the cudda style.

Love to hear if anyone has found something, size/shape/volume that is a good compromise.

I am a bit intrigued by the look of this board ... a short but very thick cudda style ... still seems to have glide and yet maybe okay on a wave. Has anyone tried getting glide from volume/thickness rather then waterline?



6'6 x 20.5 x 7 123 L

I am making a DIY 6' x 18" x 40ltr Kalama inspired board.
Lenght is lenght and i am not expecting miracles but i think it will be a good compromise of glide&surfability.

I was interested in how the cudda shape would work as a prone last year.

So did a 5'6 x 19 x 36 L

It was okay ... I didn't really feel any significant increase in paddle power over a standard 4'4 prone of the same volume. You could feel the tail lift as the wave came under you and that helped wave catching a bit, but no real "glide"

I imagine you still need to pack the volume in to 50+ L even at sub 6' length to get any real jump in paddle power?

I think it's more about the commitment to a deeper displacement shape, that hunk of foam still looks like a flat panning board, just with some side cuts and a point on the bottom.

in boat design displacement hulls are good at displacement, planing hulls are good at planing, hybrid designs are good at nothing.

Since getting my KALAMA barracuda Iv not used my prone 4'6 . loving the versatility of it for SUP, prone and downwind. I find the length projects you forward. I got a 8 for 1 prone on my 7'10 Cuda with a 850 front wing & 10" tail. As for SUP foil my go to is the KALAMA E3 6'1 x 23 I find it performs incredibly well and paddles up super easy. Here's two clips of the two:

www.instagram.com/reel/Cs-_bj-JWfM/?igshid=Y2IzZGU1MTFhOQ==

www.instagram.com/reel/CtyPu4LorOH/?igshid=Y2IzZGU1MTFhOQ==

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bjhjames said..
I was interested in how the cudda shape would work as a prone last year.

So did a 5'6 x 19 x 36 L

It was okay ... I didn't really feel any significant increase in paddle power over a standard 4'4 prone of the same volume. You could feel the tail lift as the wave came under you and that helped wave catching a bit, but no real "glide"

I imagine you still need to pack the volume in to 50+ L even at sub 6' length to get any real jump in paddle power?

Well,not noticing a 25% increase in lenght is dissapointing :(

But i can feel a difference in paddling with normal surfboards and just a few inches, and with Wingfoil boards too ,so we will see.

Adding volume has less effect in glide speed than adding lenght,IMHO that has been tried and tested with surfboards.



I still want to duckdive in my atlantic beachbreak conditions so 40ltrs is max anyway.

Very nice build BTW , what distance from tail did you place the tracks?.Standard 10in or the 40cm chinooks?.

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mcrt said..

bjhjames said..
I was interested in how the cudda shape would work as a prone last year.

So did a 5'6 x 19 x 36 L

It was okay ... I didn't really feel any significant increase in paddle power over a standard 4'4 prone of the same volume. You could feel the tail lift as the wave came under you and that helped wave catching a bit, but no real "glide"

I imagine you still need to pack the volume in to 50+ L even at sub 6' length to get any real jump in paddle power?

Well,not noticing a 25% increase in lenght is dissapointing :(

But i can feel a difference in paddling with normal surfboards and just a few inches, and with Wingfoil boards too ,so we will see.

Adding volume has less effect in glide speed than adding lenght,IMHO that has been tried and tested with surfboards.

I still want to duckdive in my atlantic beachbreak conditions so 40ltrs is max anyway.

Very nice build BTW , what distance from tail did you place the tracks?.Standard 10in or the 40cm chinooks?.

Don't get me wrong, you notice it, but its not like the diff of paddling a 6' short board to the glide you get when you paddle say a 9' mal ....and its that type of glide I was hoping for. The feel difference was more going from a 6' short board to a 6'6 step up, you catch a wave a bit easier, but no catching green waves.

Futures 101/2" boxes 16" or 420mm from the tail. I ride lift foils so fair way forward.

Tks for the link on volume v length. I will watch it.

cheers

I actually made a vid a while ago that i just uploaded that also talks a little about this. Might help a little

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paul.j said..
I actually made a vid a while ago that i just uploaded that also talks a little about this. Might help a little

Tks Jacko, that is a great summary.

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paul.j said..
I actually made a vid a while ago that i just uploaded that also talks a little about this. Might help a little

Solid summary
The thing is for us, is our spot is at a river mouth with lots of current, winds and bump. My last board was 5'6*29 120L- it was too slow and really frustrating 50% of the time. One before that was 5'9*29 125L and it was prob the best of em but really big.
Anyone can throw in on this- will cutting width to 26 increase the Glide in a meaningful manner, knowing full well its gonna be tippy...

Glad this came up because I have just started to run into this. Bought a 7'7 x 21 , 122L downwind board to start riding some of the unbroken waves at my local break on the east coast of Florida. On days it fires, there is a specific area it breaks. But there are also some better looking sections where it does not break. There are also days where it jacks up but does not break but then the swell continues in. If you could initially catch it the bump, rides can be a minute or so. It is next to an inlet so always adjusting for the current being about 500 meters out and moving water. And it can get choppy out there with even a slight wind. The choppiness is what worries me with the cuda style DW boards. Normally I ride my Armstrong 6'4 x 32 132l out there. Never cared about going any smaller. The place has a lot of sharks.

The other day I had the chance to go after these smaller unbreaking waves out there. Session did not go very well. Figuring everything with the DW board. But it was calm and a learning experience. Said the hell with and went to a different beach break and would just use the 6'4 in the small mushy beach break. WOW! I felt so slow and hard to paddle coming off the Dw board. I was expecting some that but not as drastic as it felt.

Yesterday I caught the beach break in small glassy conditions. Took the DW board out and what a blast. The beach break is nothing special. Basically racing down the line and maybe a turn. Had on a new big foil so I was getting accustomed to that also. Changing way too many things at once but with the clean small conditions I wanted to go for it. Waves were thigh to waist high. I was catching small unbreaking waves and riding them past the first sandbar through the trough area and to the beach. Then the wind picked up from nothing to about 15 mph with visible whitecaps and about a 1 foot chop mixed in. It sucked. Standing on the board became very tiresome very quick. Sitting down and waiting to pop up at the last second before the wave came while trying to manage the chop while popping up was not very good either. When I was able to accomplish that, catching the wave was easy but getting bounced around in the process knocked me off most waves and it became an effort just to catch a wave in to leave.

Gave me a lot of questions. Yes the DW boards have changed how we look at catching waves for surfing. But that depends a lot on your local the conditions there. The longer water lines with the increased speed for catching the waves is great. You are IMMEDIATELY sucked in by the paddle speed. It is awesome! But the narrowness sucks in any kind of chop. All these dreamy videos of people surfing DW boards in glassy conditions, yeah sure not a problem and easy. Where are the videos of them surfing the choppy conditions. Not downwinding. I understand that is going to be in choppy conditions but they are continually moving with the sea. Where for surfing we will be standing/sitting in one direction. Turning to paddle to catch or go chase a wave to catch. Lots of times where the board will be broadside or at different angles to throw off balance easily.

There was a race with SUP surf boards to go as small as possible to get that shortboard "feel". A lot of people regretted that pursuit. I wonder if we are kinda heading that direction a little here. Granted we are using these for something other than what they are intended for. But it is working really good for it. Guys that can go out several times a week might not have a problem as they can be more consistent. Guys that only get to go out a few times a month may get it but take a lot longer or just give up.

It seems all the DW boards are roughly 19 to 21" wide across the spectrum of sizes and manufacturers. Gotta keep up with the Jones'. For the surfing aspect of these boards I have been looking at the wider DW boards that could be a great compromise to this. Boards more in the 24 to 26" widths. A compromise to get more paddling speed to catch more waves with a slight loss in performance while possibly up on the waves. The sunova pro's that are wider that seemed like they were instantly discredited for their width. A would prefer their dimensions if they could drop the volume on these a little. The new Naish DW wind boards look really good being the same length and volume as a lot of others in their range but they are also a few inches wider.

I wish I had the time and ability to shape some these and try a lot of these theoretical shapes.

The Egg (orange board in Paul's vid) is a great SUP foil board. I've owned the 92L for a few years and initially gave up on the idea of surfing it but after persisting with it I'm pretty comfortable from a balance perspective now. I'm easily paddling into most types of smaller waves and even late takeoffs are no problem because the thick rounded nose will bounce rather than nosedive. Easy to paddle straight and amazingly light board. I'm 70kgs. I'm not yet pumping back out yet but it's definitely achievable even for an old bastard.

I have found the BEST board for the SUP Foil SURF job, but I had to make it.

6' 9" x 26" x 5" @ 115 liters 11 lbs (5 kg) - The BumbleBee

I first built a Barracuda style board 7' 10" x 21" x 6" @ 128 liters weighing 9 lbs 14 oz - The Sailfish My theory being that WEIGHT Matters.

After ~ 120 sessions, 75 on the Sailfish and 50 on the Bumblebee I have concluded that the following are the key ingredients to catching waves both for downwinding and in the surf.

1) Board Shape - If its 8 feet x 21" you almost can't mess it up
2) Paddle Technique - Study everything Jeremy Riggs
3) Hydrofoil design - High Aspect, and BIG. Learn BIG (for me Axis 1300)
4) Balance: This just takes time, as in 10-20 sessions
5) Board Weight - 10 lbs DREAMY, 12 lbs GREAT, 14 lbs - OK, 16+ lbs - TOO HEAVY (Par would be 12 lbs for 120 liters HL Factor = 10.0)

The journey started when my local foil amigos started to make boards. I weighed some of their stuff and yelled at them to make them lighter. They gave me a blank, 7' 10" x 21" wide, and said "Ok tough guy you make a board." So I did. I taught them how to vacuum bag, and to weigh every ingredient. They forced me into a downwind discipline that I considered ambiguously unnecessary. I was committed to making an ultralight board, less than 10 lbs. The Sailfish came in at 9.75 lbs for 128 liters giving it an HL factor of 7.6 (that is lbs per Hectoliter). But the Sailfish was a nightmare to balance on. It took me 10-20+ sessions to get semi-comfortable in any chop. Now I CAN stand on it in pretty terrible conditions but it wears me out.

Enter the Bumblebee. I started making it while I was still figuring out the downwind shape. Once I got more comfortable on the 21" wide board I thought I might have been making too wide a board.Now if there is any chop, or wind, or if the waves have real energy I will grab the Bumblebee.

With good technique I can take off 150 - 200 yards outside of the long boards. Last year I was getting better at doing 2 for 1 waves. This week I got a 7 for 1 on the Bumblebee with Axis 1201. Light is right. Bumblebee HL Factor = 9.6 (lbs / 100 liters).

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TooMuchEpoxy said..
I think it's more about the commitment to a deeper displacement shape, that hunk of foam still looks like a flat panning board, just with some side cuts and a point on the bottom.

in boat design displacement hulls are good at displacement, planing hulls are good at planing, hybrid designs are good at nothing.

I agree wholeheartedly :)

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that guy said..

TooMuchEpoxy said..
I think it's more about the commitment to a deeper displacement shape, that hunk of foam still looks like a flat panning board, just with some side cuts and a point on the bottom.

in boat design displacement hulls are good at displacement, planing hulls are good at planing, hybrid designs are good at nothing.

I agree wholeheartedly :)

Flat planning board, sidecuts,point on the bottom...yeah,totally ridiculous concept.
Thx for setting me straight you experts :).

As for the hybrid hulls in boat design being good at nothing i think some dude called Bruce Farr would disagree with you.
He made a pretty successful career out of exactly that concept.
Pretty much every racing sailboat since IOR has been a hybrid of displacement/planing hull.

Anyway, in my post i clearly say that i do not expect miracles out of a 6 footer.No matter how narrow you go or how round you make the shape it is still a 6 foot waterline.
Going narrower than 18" would affect the popup stability for me, deeper hull(more vol) would make it impossible to duckdive and rounder sections suck water as soon as you get to your max hull speed,hence the chine design.


So if your conditions and abilities let you enjoy a 4' 25ltr bodyboard shape by all means enjoy it, i just need more paddle speed.



Photo is Jeremy Riggs on a Kalama Barracuda.

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ninjatuna said..
Glad this came up because I have just started to run into this. Bought a 7'7 x 21 , 122L downwind board to start riding some of the unbroken waves at my local break on the east coast of Florida. On days it fires, there is a specific area it breaks. But there are also some better looking sections where it does not break. There are also days where it jacks up but does not break but then the swell continues in. If you could initially catch it the bump, rides can be a minute or so. It is next to an inlet so always adjusting for the current being about 500 meters out and moving water. And it can get choppy out there with even a slight wind. The choppiness is what worries me with the cuda style DW boards. Normally I ride my Armstrong 6'4 x 32 132l out there. Never cared about going any smaller. The place has a lot of sharks.

The other day I had the chance to go after these smaller unbreaking waves out there. Session did not go very well. Figuring everything with the DW board. But it was calm and a learning experience. Said the hell with and went to a different beach break and would just use the 6'4 in the small mushy beach break. WOW! I felt so slow and hard to paddle coming off the Dw board. I was expecting some that but not as drastic as it felt.

Yesterday I caught the beach break in small glassy conditions. Took the DW board out and what a blast. The beach break is nothing special. Basically racing down the line and maybe a turn. Had on a new big foil so I was getting accustomed to that also. Changing way too many things at once but with the clean small conditions I wanted to go for it. Waves were thigh to waist high. I was catching small unbreaking waves and riding them past the first sandbar through the trough area and to the beach. Then the wind picked up from nothing to about 15 mph with visible whitecaps and about a 1 foot chop mixed in. It sucked. Standing on the board became very tiresome very quick. Sitting down and waiting to pop up at the last second before the wave came while trying to manage the chop while popping up was not very good either. When I was able to accomplish that, catching the wave was easy but getting bounced around in the process knocked me off most waves and it became an effort just to catch a wave in to leave.

Gave me a lot of questions. Yes the DW boards have changed how we look at catching waves for surfing. But that depends a lot on your local the conditions there. The longer water lines with the increased speed for catching the waves is great. You are IMMEDIATELY sucked in by the paddle speed. It is awesome! But the narrowness sucks in any kind of chop. All these dreamy videos of people surfing DW boards in glassy conditions, yeah sure not a problem and easy. Where are the videos of them surfing the choppy conditions. Not downwinding. I understand that is going to be in choppy conditions but they are continually moving with the sea. Where for surfing we will be standing/sitting in one direction. Turning to paddle to catch or go chase a wave to catch. Lots of times where the board will be broadside or at different angles to throw off balance easily.

There was a race with SUP surf boards to go as small as possible to get that shortboard "feel". A lot of people regretted that pursuit. I wonder if we are kinda heading that direction a little here. Granted we are using these for something other than what they are intended for. But it is working really good for it. Guys that can go out several times a week might not have a problem as they can be more consistent. Guys that only get to go out a few times a month may get it but take a lot longer or just give up.

It seems all the DW boards are roughly 19 to 21" wide across the spectrum of sizes and manufacturers. Gotta keep up with the Jones'. For the surfing aspect of these boards I have been looking at the wider DW boards that could be a great compromise to this. Boards more in the 24 to 26" widths. A compromise to get more paddling speed to catch more waves with a slight loss in performance while possibly up on the waves. The sunova pro's that are wider that seemed like they were instantly discredited for their width. A would prefer their dimensions if they could drop the volume on these a little. The new Naish DW wind boards look really good being the same length and volume as a lot of others in their range but they are also a few inches wider.

I wish I had the time and ability to shape some these and try a lot of these theoretical shapes.

Perfectly said! 100% for my similar favourite surf foiling location. I like to compromise between comfort & performance. I still use my 7ft x 31 x 115L SUP that I converted at the beginning years of foiling. Its a heavy log compared to foil SUPs now. But soooo comfortable in choppy conditions when everyone has left. As for riding. I don't shred or pump back out. Just enjoy my carving rides.
Then enjoy my rest as I use my paddle to get back out.
Yes, its a dog for paddle speed so I have to catch the break. But as soon as the rocker of the board leaves the surface of the water, its up & away!
I love the exaggerated front rocker anyway for taking the drop on steep waves without getting up on foil. It feels safer. Once at the bottom & balanced I kick my foil into play.
But in smaller, calmer, weaker conditions. Yes I would go as narrow & light as possible to catch bumps. And as small & short as possible for surfing walling often breaking waves in these same conditions.