Hi guys. Today I went and tried my Large Neilpryde foil on my JP 6ft 8" X 26 wide foilboard. 2018 MODEL I think. Set the foil most of the way back in the track towards the tail with an 8mm wedge.
What a slog trying to get it to lift. And when it did I was way off balance backwards.
So back to shore & bumped the foil with wedge still attached, about 3/4 of the way forward. So was better to get up & ride. But would have been better most of the way forward with wedge attached. Or a chance maybe without the wedge.
Big difference in feel to my original 7ft board that I custom inserted a track box.
This board is an old Coreban Hyper that had heaps of nose & tail rocker. So I had to put a 15mm wedge under that. Absolutey perfect in small & overhead waves. I can keep it down when at high speed & pop it up easily. And this board is twice the weight of the JP.
But obviously the JP felt better to pump & turn easily.
The JP is used mainly for WingDing and felt easier to control with the 8mm wedge with XL Neilpryde foil set almost all the way forward to help reduce over balance backwards.
So just letting you guys know that maybe a wedge may give you a better feel.

Thanks Seajuice , I'm thinking of trying a wedge on my 6'8 fanatic which has tail rocker too , how did you calculate the wedge thickness and did you make the wedge yourself. I also use a prone fanatic board with tail rocker too but it seems to perform fine as is ,but maybe it would be even better with a wedge .

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kobo said..
Thanks Seajuice , I'm thinking of trying a wedge on my 6'8 fanatic which has tail rocker too , how did you calculate the wedge thickness and did you make the wedge yourself. I also use a prone fanatic board with tail rocker too but it seems to perform fine as is ,but maybe it would be even better with a wedge .

Kobo. The time when I got my board I heard some guys on this site say it needed a wedge around 6mm I think. So after setting my foil up on the board at home I could see that it may need one. So I made some out of plastic filler applicators.
Cut a long story short. I finally made a wedge out of epoxy & some matting. Was quite simple by making a mold out of plastic sign material that looks like a cardboard sheet. It was just a rectangular mold the same size as the mast plate. I smeared Vaseline around its edges to stop the epoxy sticking. It was marked at one end at around 8mm thickness with permanent marker before applying the vaseline. Put some epoxy in then some matting and then more epoxy etc. The mold has to be packed up at one end so the right thickness is at the other.
Then you just file & drill the holes.
Just make sure the mold is fully taped at the outside corners to stop any epoxy leakage.
I think these boards have been tested with foils all the way forward before their production. And after all. It may be the best position for best performance. But I would rather my JP board be similar to my custom without the need for a wedge.
But hey. No big deal now that I know it needs a wedge around 8mm thick at front end with foil pushed most of the way forward.
So yeah. Try a wedge. It might make a difference. Even more so if you decide to take on the WingDing.

Interesting.
NP Glide works well on flat tail rocker boards, even their freestyle, SSport, x-cite, and slalom boards.
With the windsurf fuselage.
On a rocketed board like a RRD pocket 180, windsurf fuze, the foil is all the way back or use the tuttle box....farther back.

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Seajuice said..

kobo said..
Thanks Seajuice , I'm thinking of trying a wedge on my 6'8 fanatic which has tail rocker too , how did you calculate the wedge thickness and did you make the wedge yourself. I also use a prone fanatic board with tail rocker too but it seems to perform fine as is ,but maybe it would be even better with a wedge .

Kobo. The time when I got my board I heard some guys on this site say it needed a wedge around 6mm I think. So after setting my foil up on the board at home I could see that it may need one. So I made some out of plastic filler applicators.
Cut a long story short. I finally made a wedge out of epoxy & some matting. Was quite simple by making a mold out of plastic sign material that looks like a cardboard sheet. It was just a rectangular mold the same size as the mast plate. I smeared Vaseline around its edges to stop the epoxy sticking. It was marked at one end at around 8mm thickness with permanent marker before applying the vaseline. Put some epoxy in then some matting and then more epoxy etc. The mold has to be packed up at one end so the right thickness is at the other.
Then you just file & drill the holes.
Just make sure the mold is fully taped at the outside corners to stop any epoxy leakage.
I think these boards have been tested with foils all the way forward before their production. And after all. It may be the best position for best performance. But I would rather my JP board be similar to my custom without the need for a wedge.
But hey. No big deal now that I know it needs a wedge around 8mm thick at front end with foil pushed most of the way forward.
So yeah. Try a wedge. It might make a difference. Even more so if you decide to take on the WingDing.

Thanks Seajuice, I do wing ding so I will give it a try , obviously gunnaneed longer bolts for the back fixing with the wedge.

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Seajuice said..

kobo said..
Thanks Seajuice , I'm thinking of trying a wedge on my 6'8 fanatic which has tail rocker too , how did you calculate the wedge thickness and did you make the wedge yourself. I also use a prone fanatic board with tail rocker too but it seems to perform fine as is ,but maybe it would be even better with a wedge .

Kobo. The time when I got my board I heard some guys on this site say it needed a wedge around 6mm I think. So after setting my foil up on the board at home I could see that it may need one. So I made some out of plastic filler applicators.
Cut a long story short. I finally made a wedge out of epoxy & some matting. Was quite simple by making a mold out of plastic sign material that looks like a cardboard sheet. It was just a rectangular mold the same size as the mast plate. I smeared Vaseline around its edges to stop the epoxy sticking. It was marked at one end at around 8mm thickness with permanent marker before applying the vaseline. Put some epoxy in then some matting and then more epoxy etc. The mold has to be packed up at one end so the right thickness is at the other.
Then you just file & drill the holes.
Just make sure the mold is fully taped at the outside corners to stop any epoxy leakage.
I think these boards have been tested with foils all the way forward before their production. And after all. It may be the best position for best performance. But I would rather my JP board be similar to my custom without the need for a wedge.
But hey. No big deal now that I know it needs a wedge around 8mm thick at front end with foil pushed most of the way forward.
So yeah. Try a wedge. It might make a difference. Even more so if you decide to take on the WingDing.

Where I said: But hey. No big deal now that I know it needs a wedge around 8mm thick at front end with foil pushed most of the way forward.

I meant 8mm thick at tail end or back end of the mast plate.

Just tried a 6 mm wedge on my fanatic prone 4'8 and I did feel more lift than before which made pumping easier on the 1050. Only downside seems to be on bigger steeper takeoffs as it wants to lift earlier and therefore buck you off sooner, really keen to try it on my 6'7 fanatic SUP for dinging. So even though in theory a mast wedge shouldn't make any difference it does somehow, I guess it's really the angle that the board travels at when up on foil that is changed, but for a takeoff where the board is forced to sit flat on the water and the foil is forced to stay at the angle the tail rocker sets, this would reduce the angle of attack and reduce lift at that point in time.

I have not tried the JP Australia foil 6'8, however I have been using the JP Australia 7' foil for over 2 years and have not felt the need for a wedge. The only adjustment I need is where to place the foil in the tracks whether it be supfoing, wing foiling or wind foiling. Also the foil position on the board maybe affected by the foil design, ie mast, wings etc etc.

It's just in my opinion that a large foil midway in a mast track should be easily pointed up to fly in average waist high waves without the need to pump. But for me to continue to fly I found myself crouched down with weight at the back. Totally unrelaxed. If I stood up I would have lost balance & fallen backwards. But with foil almost all the way forward it felt ok but I still needed the effort to pump it up to fly and again I still felt a little unbalanced backwards but was able to manage it quite easily with the 8mm wedge.
On my custom Corban Hyper I can start with my large foil a little further back than mid way and my medium about midway in the mast track. And in overhead waves my medium foil is basically 1 inch or 25mm back from midway.
When wingdinging with my JP with XL NPryde foil I place the foil mast just about 1 inch or 25mm back from the very front of the track and with the 8mm wedge it seemed to lift better & reduced that feeling of falling backwards on the lift & stalls.
BUT in saying all this it may be a matter of muscle memory body adjustment being used to what you have been using.

What I have realised also is TAIL ROCKER might be an important part of getting easy lift.
When a board sits flat on water a tail with excessive rocker sits above the water surface which I would think would make the board easier to point upward with back foot pressure must more easier than no tail rocker. But when up on the fly it may not make any difference.

You would think once you are up flying that the foil would takeover and set its own level , which would mean a board with tail rocker would fly nose higher than a board without rocker.

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kobo said..
You would think once you are up flying that the foil would takeover and set its own level , which would mean a board with tail rocker would fly nose higher than a board without rocker.

No I don't think so. Not with a wedge and not on my custom Coreban SUP. The tail rocker is mainly the hull of the board not on the top deck.
But nose rocker will point up. And same with a wedge. Yes basically the foil will set its level that should be near level as the board deck in front & behind your stance only. The tail & nose doesn't really matter.
It's all about being flat underfoot when underway. And not tipping too far back on very first stepping pump. If you know what I mean.

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Seajuice said..
It's just in my opinion that a large foil midway in a mast track should be easily pointed up to fly in average waist high waves without the need to pump. But for me to continue to fly I found myself crouched down with weight at the back. Totally unrelaxed. If I stood up I would have lost balance & fallen backwards. But with foil almost all the way forward it felt ok but I still needed the effort to pump it up to fly and again I still felt a little unbalanced backwards but was able to manage it quite easily with the 8mm wedge.
On my custom Corban Hyper I can start with my large foil a little further back than mid way and my medium about midway in the mast track. And in overhead waves my medium foil is basically 1 inch or 25mm back from midway.
When wingdinging with my JP with XL NPryde foil I place the foil mast just about 1 inch or 25mm back from the very front of the track and with the 8mm wedge it seemed to lift better & reduced that feeling of falling backwards on the lift & stalls.
BUT in saying all this it may be a matter of muscle memory body adjustment being used to what you have been using.

I have used the NP foil L for wingfoiling and found it very easy to fly without a wedge and easy to pump. With any of the foiling disciplines, i always feel there is the need to pump the board onto foil even if just one pump. The main factor to get onto foil is creating sufficient board speed. The faster the board speed, the easier it is to pop up. It would be interesting to see a side profile video of you riding to see the angle of your board (with wedge) when you are up and riding. If the wedge is making it easier for you to fly onto foil, definitely use it, however I think you should try without (possibly wingfoiling) and see how you find. Naturally there might be a bit of an initial adjustment not using the wedge, however i feel you should have better control when up and flying. Having the board pop up without the need to pump is interesting... My guess is that there will be even more front foot pressure once up and and foiling when using the wedge on the JP.

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IWB said..

Seajuice said..
It's just in my opinion that a large foil midway in a mast track should be easily pointed up to fly in average waist high waves without the need to pump. But for me to continue to fly I found myself crouched down with weight at the back. Totally unrelaxed. If I stood up I would have lost balance & fallen backwards. But with foil almost all the way forward it felt ok but I still needed the effort to pump it up to fly and again I still felt a little unbalanced backwards but was able to manage it quite easily with the 8mm wedge.
On my custom Corban Hyper I can start with my large foil a little further back than mid way and my medium about midway in the mast track. And in overhead waves my medium foil is basically 1 inch or 25mm back from midway.
When wingdinging with my JP with XL NPryde foil I place the foil mast just about 1 inch or 25mm back from the very front of the track and with the 8mm wedge it seemed to lift better & reduced that feeling of falling backwards on the lift & stalls.
BUT in saying all this it may be a matter of muscle memory body adjustment being used to what you have been using.

I have used the NP foil L for wingfoiling and found it very easy to fly without a wedge and easy to pump. With any of the foiling disciplines, i always feel there is the need to pump the board onto foil even if just one pump. The main factor to get onto foil is creating sufficient board speed. The faster the board speed, the easier it is to pop up. It would be interesting to see a side profile video of you riding to see the angle of your board (with wedge) when you are up and riding. If the wedge is making it easier for you to fly onto foil, definitely use it, however I think you should try without (possibly wingfoiling) and see how you find. Naturally there might be a bit of an initial adjustment not using the wedge, however i feel you should have better control when up and flying. Having the board pop up without the need to pump is interesting... My guess is that there will be even more front foot pressure once up and and foiling when using the wedge on the JP.

Basically I'm saying that I'm surprised that my large NPryde foil set in the centre of the mast track of my 6ft 8" JP board with the 8mm wedge was very difficult to unstick the board from the water surface. Yet on my custom board with foil in centre of track the same size wave & speed it was just a matter of putting a bit of body weight on the rear & up it goes easily.
What I'll try next is to put the foil all the way forward without wedge. I think it will work. But then cannot understand why have the rest of useless track towards the tail. Surely the Npryde Wing angles wouldn't be much different to other foils. It's been a great foil for me.
I have in the past been told by a mate that I seemed to stand too tall when riding. But that was at my learning stage.
But anyway I'm hoping one day to get a shot or video from the side to see the angle of my boards when riding.

If you check, you will find almost every different foil company uses different COE's of front foil.
Then you add windsurf fuze which locate the font wing even more forwards.

Rocker at foilbox and/or Wedge at mast plate determine the Angle of attack at takeoff.
I would place the mast at the "balance" point of the whole setup ,(if possible) as KD Maui said in a Podcast:
-Board on flat floor ,upside down with foil mounted and mast track screws abit loose.
-Put thumb under foil center of pressure (in line with fuse, at 1/3 of max width from front of main wing)
-Lift up.If board bottom stays parallel to ground you are good.If nose drops move foil forward an viceversa.
-Ride it like this and wedge mast if needed for good take off behavior.

Ps: in longish boards the foil box is often too far back to balance like this.Just move it all the way fwd.

I've got the 7'0 x 28" JP Foil SUP, with NP XL foil. Would be interested to hear if anyone has experience with a similar setup while trying to flatwater paddle the board up onto foil. I use the foilmount mast shims at 9mm tall wedge, and set the mast all the way forward in the tracks. Extremely difficult so far.

i had some issues with my early set up (axis foil on a Fanatic Stubby foil 8'7" sup board). This is a somewhat rediculous beginner sup foil board with so much nose and tail rocker the thing looks more like an oversized banana than surfcraft.

My initial attemps went ok but i found it hard to paddle around (no glide), impossible to catch small waves and significant back foot stomping required to lift up onto the foil. This led to me charging headhigh surf for a few days which was great fun but the inevitable wipeouts led to a bent mast and lots of ridicule from seabreezers when i posted about it on another thread ;)

anyhoot i investigated the shim approach and now I am rocking an 11mm shim at the tail end of the mast plate, set as far forward as it will go in the tracks. this has solved the above issues and is quite remarkable how much easier it is to paddle and catch small waves, so im no longer the big wave charger i was a few weeks ago :)

Not knowing any better i figured out my own simple approach to working out the required shimm angle/thickness. It worked for me and I thought it might be useful for others.

i set the board upside down and propped it up so that the centre area of the bottom of the board was level (the area under the deck handle, where your feet are placed for most paddling around the lineup). I measured this with a short spirit level to make it as close to level as possible.

I then put the foil on the tracks, and measured the bottom surface of the front wing with the same spirit level, and in my case it was completely on the piss, not even close to level. so i then wedged up the tail end of the mast plate until the foil was level (and parralel with the main paddling area of the board). This required 11mm lift at the back end of the board.

Shimm was just a few strips of plastic, duct taped together to make a wedge. it works fine. I did need longer mast plate bolts also.

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mcrt said..
Rocker at foilbox and/or Wedge at mast plate determine the Angle of attack at takeoff.
I would place the mast at the "balance" point of the whole setup ,(if possible) as KD Maui said in a Podcast:
-Board on flat floor ,upside down with foil mounted and mast track screws abit loose.
-Put thumb under foil center of pressure (in line with fuse, at 1/3 of max width from front of main wing)
-Lift up.If board bottom stays parallel to ground you are good.If nose drops move foil forward an viceversa.
-Ride it like this and wedge mast if needed for good take off behavior.

Ps: in longish boards the foil box is often too far back to balance like this.Just move it all the way fwd.

Hey don't quite get point two. gonna try it.

Where is your thumb going when you lift? A third of the way from the front center of your front wing towards the tail end of the fuse ?

that being the max width of your front foil ?

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eppo said..

Hey don't quite get point two. gonna try it.

Where is your thumb going when you lift? A third of the way from the front center of your front wing towards the tail end of the fuse ?

that being the max width of your front foil ?

Yes and yes.One third of the Max Chord is kind of eyeball but it tends to be the center of pressure of most foils.

Here is more info :
-Post from Kane de Wilde:
www.foilfeed.net/forums/topic/foil-placement/

-And Robert from Blueplanetwith pic:
www.blueplanetsurf.com/blogs/news/foil-board-setup-tips-board-foil-foil-placement-fo/

Cheers bro

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Seatrue said..
I've got the 7'0 x 28" JP Foil SUP, with NP XL foil. Would be interested to hear if anyone has experience with a similar setup while trying to flatwater paddle the board up onto foil. I use the foilmount mast shims at 9mm tall wedge, and set the mast all the way forward in the tracks. Extremely difficult so far.

I think the longer board design will possibly add to the difficulty of pumping the board off flatwater, sup paddling. Saying that, it might be possible with the right person and right foil combo.

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beefarmer said..
i had some issues with my early set up (axis foil on a Fanatic Stubby foil 8'7" sup board). This is a somewhat rediculous beginner sup foil board with so much nose and tail rocker the thing looks more like an oversized banana than surfcraft.

My initial attemps went ok but i found it hard to paddle around (no glide), impossible to catch small waves and significant back foot stomping required to lift up onto the foil. This led to me charging headhigh surf for a few days which was great fun but the inevitable wipeouts led to a bent mast and lots of ridicule from seabreezers when i posted about it on another thread ;)

anyhoot i investigated the shim approach and now I am rocking an 11mm shim at the tail end of the mast plate, set as far forward as it will go in the tracks. this has solved the above issues and is quite remarkable how much easier it is to paddle and catch small waves, so im no longer the big wave charger i was a few weeks ago :)

Not knowing any better i figured out my own simple approach to working out the required shimm angle/thickness. It worked for me and I thought it might be useful for others.

i set the board upside down and propped it up so that the centre area of the bottom of the board was level (the area under the deck handle, where your feet are placed for most paddling around the lineup). I measured this with a short spirit level to make it as close to level as possible.

I then put the foil on the tracks, and measured the bottom surface of the front wing with the same spirit level, and in my case it was completely on the piss, not even close to level. so i then wedged up the tail end of the mast plate until the foil was level (and parralel with the main paddling area of the board). This required 11mm lift at the back end of the board.

Shimm was just a few strips of plastic, duct taped together to make a wedge. it works fine. I did need longer mast plate bolts also.

That is basically how I double checked mine after putting a track box in mine.
I know when I measered the inside of the square hole I had cut, it was about 13mm short in height at the tail end when measuring from the underside of the deck to the bottom of the board because of its excessive tail rocker.
So a 13mm thick wedge was made and was perfect. And still is after 3 years riding knee high to overhead waves.
Remember not to take into account the nose rocker. It is mainly the planing surface which should be under the riders feet stance.
And I have found that some tail rocker makes it easier or a little more sensitive to pump the board up on foil due to not needing to bury the tail under water. I have noticed board designs change over time from having cut out recess under the tail to virtually no tail behind the mast.
Looks like I jagged it in the early days putting a foil on a 7 foot board with excessive nose & tail rocker. The only main negative is the board weighs a ton. Although feels great to carve & glide. Also to catch whitewash when needed.