I tried a minus 2 board for fun and was blown away by how easy they get on foil, I didn't love kneeling starts at all, the board I tried had a concave deck and my knees where on the higher ridges, it was ok at 20knts when I could get up in almost one motion but the lulls where very painful, has anyone decided on the formula for smallest yet stable? Maybe plus 10 square rails?

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Jedibrad said..
has anyone decided on the formula for smallest yet stable? Maybe plus 10 square rails?

Easy: minus 30.



... minus 30 years for the rider, I mean :-)

This is plus 10 liters square rails, flat deck. A couple of knee starts in the video. 66 years old.

That's great DWF ...do you do a stand up start too?

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Jedibrad said..
That's great DWF ...do you do a stand up start too?

No. Impossible. Even a SUP can be near impossible in rough seas. You need to learn knee starts to be in this sport.

I don't need to learn to do knee starts because I can already...
Question was what's the minimum to stand start?
These Wingdings excel in gusty conditions, big boards limit you to a large front wing so you lose your top end which is essential to slide onto swells. So on the 75 liter board I couldn't even lift my ass off the board when the wind dropped out, board is fully underwater(board is only 21.5 inches wide), when the wind was on, up and riding on foil in about two seconds.

By the way learning this at 66 is inspirational !

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Jedibrad said..
I don't need to learn to do knee starts because I can already...
Question was what's the minimum to stand start?
These Wingdings excel in gusty conditions, big boards limit you to a large front wing so you lose your top end which is essential to slide onto swells. So on the 75 liter board I couldn't even lift my ass off the board when the wind dropped out, board is fully underwater(board is only 21.5 inches wide), when the wind was on, up and riding on foil in about two seconds.

Easier to help you if we know how much you weigh

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Jedibrad said..
I don't need to learn to do knee starts because I can already...
Question was what's the minimum to stand start?
These Wingdings excel in gusty conditions, big boards limit you to a large front wing so you lose your top end which is essential to slide onto swells. So on the 75 liter board I couldn't even lift my ass off the board when the wind dropped out, board is fully underwater(board is only 21.5 inches wide), when the wind was on, up and riding on foil in about two seconds.

I don't understand what you mean by standing start. Are you talking about a sinker board?

Ive got a 74ltr board by DWF and at my 65kgs I can uphaul start if I really wanted to in light/moderate choppy seas. No point to that though with a quick knee start as the better option.

Finding the magic foot placement is key for balancing without power in the wing in light winds. If it was any smaller than the +9 liters, I would probably be grabbing my +40L SUP for light wind sessions.

Looking forward to stepping down -30L to my 35L prone during prime conditions next.

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Dommo49 said..

Jedibrad said..
I don't need to learn to do knee starts because I can already...
Question was what's the minimum to stand start?
These Wingdings excel in gusty conditions, big boards limit you to a large front wing so you lose your top end which is essential to slide onto swells. So on the 75 liter board I couldn't even lift my ass off the board when the wind dropped out, board is fully underwater(board is only 21.5 inches wide), when the wind was on, up and riding on foil in about two seconds.

Easier to help you if we know how much you weigh

Minus 2 which means 2 liters less than my weight in kgs
Plus 10, weight in kgs plus 10 in liters

If I wanted a board to just stand up on, and avoid knee starts most of the time, then dimensions would be primary, then volume.

A SUP can be 29 or 30 wide and stable enough for standing starts, and equal to your weight in volume.

While a wing board is designed to be as short and narrow as possible, with thickness maxed out to reach the volume needed to avoid sinking too much. Stability is not a concern, because the wing board user expects to always knee start. That is why wing boards can be dimensionally very small, and feel very high performance, while having similar volume to SUPs.

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DWF said..
If I wanted a board to just stand up on, and avoid knee starts most of the time, then dimensions would be primary, then volume.

A SUP can be 29 or 30 wide and stable enough for standing starts, and equal to your weight in volume.

While a wing board is designed to be as short and narrow as possible, with thickness maxed out to reach the volume needed to avoid sinking too much. Stability is not a concern, because the wing board user expects to always knee start. That is why wing boards can be dimensionally very small, and feel very high performance, while having similar volume to SUPs.

This.

You are not going to be able to stand on anything significantly smaller than +0 unless you are going for a sinker start.

I still don't understand the difference between a standing start and a kneeling start. To do a standing start, don't you still have to climb up on the board and go from prone to squatting (or kneeling) to standing? The steps are pretty similar to a kneeling start but with less control of the wing.

Standing start....put both hands on the deck and just stand. Then pick the wing up off the water. Day one beginner method.

OK, I am 6'2" and 90kg.

My preferred ride is 110ltrs (Naish Hover 110 CU). I disagree with the quote about big boards and speed.

The maths I do, 92kg (me in a full wetty and wet) + 8kg (board with straps and leggy wet) + 3kg (Foil) = 103kg.

So I guess I am riding really plus 7.

Now, I couldn't get up on 35ltrs although I got very close. Maybe more wind, but that is not realistic as you can ride anything in "more wind". As the board is lighter, lets call this 98kg/35ltrs = -63

I got up quite easily on 45lts. This blew my mind. Only need about 15kn. Again light board. so 98/45= -48

I couldn't get up with 75ltrs. Way too hard to setup. Board a inbetween, so 100/75= -25

I can ride, but it is very challenging on 95ltrs. I wouldn't want to go too far or have the wind drop out. 101kg/95ltr = -6

So I would say to people who want to ride in real world conditions (less than 20kn), that either +10 or 50% are good numbers to start with skills permitting.

Ride safe,.

JB

For us to be able to share information in a meaningful manner, we have to agree to some conventions. A 90 Kg rider on a 110 L board is +20.

This is my homemade coffin board, all wood, 130cm (4'3" long). Estimated volume is about 82-83l. I weigh about 75 to 77kg, so with a wet wetsuit about 78-80. Board weighs 5.3kg. Foil setup floats so I don't count that. So all-in pretty much bouyancy neutral. The second photo is this compared side by side with my learning board, a 5'5" 104l wavechaser.
Comparing the two: Easier to get onto my knees on the wavechaser. But not a drama on the coffin. I anyway use the leading edge of the wing to balance on. Slighty harder to get foil overhead on the coffin - less stable without wing support. Surprisingly, easier to get from kneeling to standing on the coffin. Because it sits so low, it bobs around less in the chop, a lot of the chop just washes over it. A very flat rocker and square rails also helps - it doesn't roll from side to side easily at all. Getting on the foil - still fine tuning the diff on that. Once on the foil, the smaller size is such a pleasure - difference is immediate and obvious - so much more manoeuvrable.
I think +10 is a good number. i.e. bouyancy neutral. Less than that you'll have a harder time in lighter wind. And I'm a very average rider with average to a little above average athletic ability and talent, new to wing foiling, though a proficient kite foiler.
Not yet tried submerged starts, hope to get to that some time, but for now I've found a reasonably practical limit for knee starting. Less than this I thought would get harder for not much benefit without going whole hog to submerged.

That wood board is cool is it hollow framed plywood Glassed over. and if ply what thickness Thanks

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tomooh said..
That wood board is cool is it hollow framed plywood Glassed over. and if ply what thickness Thanks

Thanks!
It's hollow framed all paulownia, glassed over. Plywood is just too heavy for this. The stringers and struts are 6mm the skin about 4mm. I'm hoping it's strong enough, feels good so far.I put some photo's up here if you want to see the build:
www.instagram.com/p/CBnVBl4lo2BKY8J2ASW6Q9HPaSXqhFQ1mOC5Rs0/?hl=en

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JB said..
OK, I am 6'2" and 90kg.

My preferred ride is 110ltrs (Naish Hover 110 CU). I disagree with the quote about big boards and speed.

The maths I do, 92kg (me in a full wetty and wet) + 8kg (board with straps and leggy wet) + 3kg (Foil) = 103kg.

So I guess I am riding really plus 7.

Now, I couldn't get up on 35ltrs although I got very close. Maybe more wind, but that is not realistic as you can ride anything in "more wind". As the board is lighter, lets call this 98kg/35ltrs = -63

I got up quite easily on 45lts. This blew my mind. Only need about 15kn. Again light board. so 98/45= -48

I couldn't get up with 75ltrs. Way too hard to setup. Board a inbetween, so 100/75= -25

I can ride, but it is very challenging on 95ltrs. I wouldn't want to go too far or have the wind drop out. 101kg/95ltr = -6

So I would say to people who want to ride in real world conditions (less than 20kn), that either +10 or 50% are good numbers to start with skills permitting.

Ride safe,.

JB

So that's interesting JB, basically the board needs to be either big enough to float you standing ,or small enough to sink and control comfortably,but not so small that it sinks too much needing lots of power to get going.I wonder if planing area plays a role here as well. Burt Burger from Sunova has stated in regard to surfboards that planing area is more important than volume in making a surfboard that catches waves easily. Just adding volume doesn't help the same area size board get up on the plane, but adding surface area does.

Did the 45 ltr board have as much or more surface area than the 75 lts one ?

Another consideration but may not be significant on very small boards for this activity is:
A very light board of equal volume has way more flotation benefit than a heavy equivalent.
Board width also makes a big difference.
But mostly in my case it's the rider skill.
So the rule of thumb is a guide only as are most measurements.

JB, on the 45l did you underwater stand? Like tow surfing ?

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kobo said..

JB said..
OK, I am 6'2" and 90kg.

My preferred ride is 110ltrs (Naish Hover 110 CU). I disagree with the quote about big boards and speed.

The maths I do, 92kg (me in a full wetty and wet) + 8kg (board with straps and leggy wet) + 3kg (Foil) = 103kg.

So I guess I am riding really plus 7.

Now, I couldn't get up on 35ltrs although I got very close. Maybe more wind, but that is not realistic as you can ride anything in "more wind". As the board is lighter, lets call this 98kg/35ltrs = -63

I got up quite easily on 45lts. This blew my mind. Only need about 15kn. Again light board. so 98/45= -48

I couldn't get up with 75ltrs. Way too hard to setup. Board a inbetween, so 100/75= -25

I can ride, but it is very challenging on 95ltrs. I wouldn't want to go too far or have the wind drop out. 101kg/95ltr = -6

So I would say to people who want to ride in real world conditions (less than 20kn), that either +10 or 50% are good numbers to start with skills permitting.

Ride safe,.

JB

So that's interesting JB, basically the board needs to be either big enough to float you standing ,or small enough to sink and control comfortably,but not so small that it sinks too much needing lots of power to get going.I wonder if planing area plays a role here as well. Burt Burger from Sunova has stated in regard to surfboards that planing area is more important than volume in making a surfboard that catches waves easily. Just adding volume doesn't help the same area size board get up on the plane, but adding surface area does.

Did the 45 ltr board have as much or more surface area than the 75 lts one ?

Interesting. Yes the 45 ltr board had a longer water line and similar width to the 75ltr. The 35ltr is longer waterline also but a little narrow than the 45lt and 75ltr.

I do think there is a general trend to going a little longer again, as it does make life a lot easier in many ways.

JB

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Jedibrad said..
JB, on the 45l did you underwater stand? Like tow surfing ?

Yes, Found sinking the board under me and using the wing like a tripod to stabilize the easiet. Then when your puff comes, swiftly pull it up over your head and sheet in, this pops you most of the way up, then 3 or 4 good pumps and you're off.

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JB said..Yes, Found sinking the board under me and using the wing like a tripod to stabilize the easiet. Then when your puff comes, swiftly pull it up over your head and sheet in, this pops you most of the way up, then 3 or 4 good pumps and you're off.

Way too energetic I will stay with the +15 of my SUP I feel way more secure in waves knowing I can easily get back on board.

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hilly said..

JB said..Yes, Found sinking the board under me and using the wing like a tripod to stabilize the easiet. Then when your puff comes, swiftly pull it up over your head and sheet in, this pops you most of the way up, then 3 or 4 good pumps and you're off.

Way too energetic I will stay with the +15 of my SUP I feel way more secure in waves knowing I can easily get back on board.

Yes, I love the 110. It's a fun novelty when I know there's an easy retreat to go small, but for the big missions I will be going back to my old faithful.

Ride safe,

JB

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DWF said..
This is plus 10 liters square rails, flat deck. A couple of knee starts in the video. 66 years old.

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JB said..

hilly said..

JB said..Yes, Found sinking the board under me and using the wing like a tripod to stabilize the easiet. Then when your puff comes, swiftly pull it up over your head and sheet in, this pops you most of the way up, then 3 or 4 good pumps and you're off.

Way too energetic I will stay with the +15 of my SUP I feel way more secure in waves knowing I can easily get back on board.

Yes, I love the 110. It's a fun novelty when I know there's an easy retreat to go small, but for the big missions I will be going back to my old faithful.

Ride safe,

JB

Upmost respect JWb 66yrs & Warick 70+yrs.
Still frothing at 64 hoping to get my teeth into winging as part of loving everything surfing,kiting,foiling now wing Sup and prone.
Excellent videos to progress.
This post on rider weight V board length,
width or surface area,thickness,or volume ltrs.
Then add wind strength,wing size mtrs and
foil size cm2,mast length 70-80-90cm
Also riders background .
Add locations,surface conditions,obstacles boats,jetty's.
Seems daunting but thanks to helpful information above makes the learning curve more doable.
cheers