I'm wondering if they licensed the tech, both are Gorge based companies. Although this one doesn't have the PVC leading and trailing edges which are a big selling point on the Cedrus.

Personally I'd rather they went for a "foot" which was easier to machine a fuselage for (like Starboard or Moses style).

Grantmac said..
I'm wondering if they licensed the tech, both are Gorge based companies. Although this one doesn't have the PVC leading and trailing edges which are a big selling point on the Cedrus.

Personally I'd rather they went for a "foot" which was easier to machine a fuselage for (like Starboard or Moses style).

less of a feature for me. Never really had a problem with the leading or trailing edge of any mast ever. I personally would rather 100% of my profile and mass be directed structurally. Based on the No Limitz weight i see significant savings there.

Looks pretty thin! I'm getting one ASAP i'll post a review!

TooMuchEpoxy said..

Grantmac said..
I'm wondering if they licensed the tech, both are Gorge based companies. Although this one doesn't have the PVC leading and trailing edges which are a big selling point on the Cedrus.

Personally I'd rather they went for a "foot" which was easier to machine a fuselage for (like Starboard or Moses style).

less of a feature for me. Never really had a problem with the leading or trailing edge of any mast ever. I personally would rather 100% of my profile and mass be directed structurally. Based on the No Limitz weight i see significant savings there.

Looks pretty thin! I'm getting one ASAP i'll post a review!

have one landing Thursday, I'll keep ya posted!

martyman said..

Grantmac said..
They mention the ends being glued on. I wonder if they will offer tuttle options or convertible like Fanatic does. Would make for a sweet windfoil cross over mast.

Hopefully they have the galvanic corrosion figured out, aluminum and carbon in constant contact are not a good mix.

I'm guessing they probably float at that weight too.

I'd bet with 30 years of aerospace fabrication they might have a clue about Galvanic Corrosion-just a guess though lol

Most of whats happeneing with electrolitic corrosoion id dependent on the carbon, how well sealed it is, are fibers exposed to the water. They're probably taking care of their end but if your using it with Lift or whatever it might be a problem.

The next part of electrolitic corrosion is not having any water getting between carbon and aluminum parts, its not time in the ocean thats causing the damage, its when its sitting in your car for 4 days with half an ounce of water trapped between the wing and the fuse. Filling connections with sealant or something like lanocote to displace that water is going to help alot.

the next thing i'd say is have a portion of a big aluminum part (like the fuse) uncoated. How much corrosion occurs is dependent on exposed carbon but where it occurs is dependent on exposed aluminum. If you have a annodized and coated part with one little scratch all the corrosion goes crazy in that small area and decimates that small area(i've seen moses fuses pitted deeply enough like this to cause structural problems). If the whole fuse is raw aluminum you'll get a thin coating of corrosion everywhere that can be brushed off with a handful of wet sand.

My DIY completely uncoated fuselage is showing almost no corrosion. Factory fuselages seem to be attacked heavily anywhere the coating has been breached which is impossible to avoid at threaded connections etc. Then again I don't leave it connected to anything carbon.

Aerospace stuff generally doesn't get thumped against rocks and left uninspected in damp bags for weeks. Not saying this mast will have issues but a sacrificial anode really would be a good idea. Alpine include one on their fuselage.

Great user feedback FoilAddict. Thanks

FoilAddict said..
all the permanently bonded aluminum bottom connections I've tested fell apart within weeks to a few months. I would assume he gave his mast a good run of testing before releasing. If I had to guess, there might be fiberglass or g10 between the aluminum and carbon, I've had success avoiding corrosion like this. If there's a problem it'll hopefully start showing soon.

That said, I tried one winging on a phantasm high aspect and it was awesome! It's a fast, stiff, fairly light mast that performs at least as well as what foil brands sell (phantasm mast is better though). Committing to one bottom connection is a hard choice vs the Cedrus, the Cedrus is stiffer and probably lighter. The Nolimitz baseplate is much safer than Cedrus.
Nolimitz is also way faster and more efficient. Neither mast has bad ventilation issues, but the Nolimitz should be better in this because its thinner.

I haven't had problems with carbon mast bases getting stuck to alu fuselages, only the bolts getting stuck.

If you're looking for a mast upgrade, get the Nolimitz. If you want to save money switching between brands get the Cedrus.

Great info,thx!.

MFC is moving back to alu fuses, they say the weight increase (100g) is negligible compared to the gain in torsion resistance,which is pretty big.
I asked about the corrosion between carbon mast&fuse and they said the mast had external layers of fiberglass to keep alu&carbon apart but that it would still require some maintenance (i understand he meant periodically dissassembling,rinsing and tef gel or similar).

Maybe the NoLimitz mast has the same concept as you say,some sort of isolating material.

For me this is super important,i am fortunate as i can leave my foil always mounted.
Saves time and saves the mating surfaces from wearing down and loosening up.
I am a bit OCD with the tightness of connections,the tiniest bit of flutter and i bring out the epoxy :).

jondrums said..

Grantmac said..
I'm unsure why Nolimitz went for a separate aluminum top plate that's bonded on vs a monolithic setup.
Likewise molding a few different carbon or G10 "feet" that could be glued on a universal mast seems more logical than aluminum of all things.

I guess time will tell

This was exactly my thought too - the all carbon masts that transition the layup directly into the top-plate are lighter and probably a good bit better structurally. My dream would be a carbon mast with a layup directly into the top-plate like Armstrong, Axis, or Lift with a Cedrus style bottom mount so I can run a few different foils. I might end up buying an Axis carbon mast and making a custom aluminum fuse for my Takuma foils.

According to the Cedrus guy a single piece all carbon mast&top plate is not the best solution.

projectcedrus.com/general/solid-mechanics-composites-101/

"The tapered top mount helps at the board attachment, but you are still primarily stressing the epoxy resin at the mount, NOT the carbon fibers. I have had a surprising number of people ask me to make a carbon board mount. I have tried to explain many times that there is a very good reason for my aluminum board mount: It would take so much more carbon fiber than metal to properly size this joint to keep stress low, that there would be no weight benefit to using carbon. The reason stress must stay low is because of a type of stress called inter laminar tension, which occurs when you try to straighten fibers that are bent or curved. You are basically relying on the strength of epoxy to hold the mast together, not the strength of the carbon fibers. As you can see in the photo above, all you have in the middle of that flared structure is a ball of resin and fibers in random directions. It's a nightmare to manufacture, and has extremely variable strength because who knows what's going on inside there."

TooMuchEpoxy said..

Grantmac said..
I'm wondering if they licensed the tech, both are Gorge based companies. Although this one doesn't have the PVC leading and trailing edges which are a big selling point on the Cedrus.

Personally I'd rather they went for a "foot" which was easier to machine a fuselage for (like Starboard or Moses style).

less of a feature for me. Never really had a problem with the leading or trailing edge of any mast ever. I personally would rather 100% of my profile and mass be directed structurally. Based on the No Limitz weight i see significant savings there.

Looks pretty thin! I'm getting one ASAP i'll post a review!

Project Cedrus claim their 100+cm with the Axis adapter (~200grams) is just about 2Kg. The NoLimitz 93cm is 1.33kg with the Takuma fitting.

I wonder what would be a direct comparison for a 93cm (overall with adapter) of the the Cedrus mast with the Takuma adapter which
seem much smaller than the Axis. Rough estimate puts it at around 1.75Kg

Can someone corroborate? That's not a lot of extra weight for the added benefits and the proven track record of the product.
They will make a compatible fuselage to fit my GoFoil wings as well for $250.

Right now the NoLimitz compatibility seems very limited.

mcrt said..

According to the Cedrus guy a single piece all carbon mast&top plate is not the best solution.

projectcedrus.com/general/solid-mechanics-composites-101/

that entire blog post is rubbish and outdated. I love the Cedrus product and paid to own it - BUT Kyle should be ashamed of himself for posting it. Some of the older carbon kite foil masts were poorly designed and broke like that. But who here has ever heard of a Lift, Armstrong, or Axis carbon mast breaking at the mount??? Take one look at the armstrong mast (and several others too) and you can see the fibers at the top well aligned with the loads.

Kyle doesn't want to make it that way because it is really hard to manufacture. Neither does GoFoil, who still insist on glueing a composite mount to their standard tuttle-style mast. Heavy. Some of the other brands have invested heavily in making really nice masts, but unfortunately they also decided on their own fuselage interfaces so you're stuck with their system. I don't blame them to much for that - its good business.

I can't modify my post above. - Kyle reached out to me to say that actually my post is rubbish (but he was much nicer about it). So consider my opinon is from "some guy on the internet" vs. The founder of Project Cedrus who is an aerospace engineer

Hey everyone, Kyle with Project Cedrus here and wanted to chime in since this thread has gotten a little personal.

First, I knew it was only a matter of time before someone used similar technology to what is found in my mast. My goal from this project since day 1 has been to advance the technology of our sport, and it's nice to see I have succeeded in that. Competition essentially validates what you are doing, so I'm happy to have other players in the universal mast market. What I was not expecting however, was a blatant copy of my website and specifically the benefits of a lighter and stiffer mast. I find that a little obnoxious, but wish Steve the best of luck with his endeavor.

There are some technical things I want to address. As I've said before, with a zero/non-existent marketing budget, forums are valuable for me and there is some misinformation here that I would like to address. I also believe it's ok to challenge ideas and question them. But don't attack the person or make assumptions.

1. Project Cedrus' non-structural edges are there for a variety of reasons. Yes safety is one. If you don't need them for safety, great! I have some customers however who have expressed gratitude for the soft edges after getting bonked on the head following a crash. They also improve damage tolerance of the mast, as they are impossible to chip like a thin section of carbon. They are also lighter than carbon! Yes, the material is approx. 1.4 g/cc, while carbon is 1.8 g/cc. They are also a lot cheaper than carbon. Because edges lie close to the neutral axis of the beam, they do not offer much structural benefit to the mast. Fun fact: Airplane (aerospace) leading and trailing edges are non-structural! So if you'd like carbon edges that are heavier, more prone to chipping, and more expensive, there are plenty of other carbon masts on the market for you. But please understand the reasons for my decision and do not make assumptions about why I designed the mast the way I did.

2. Secondly, someone is comparing the weight of my 93cm Clydesdale to the 93cm NoLimitz mast. This is not a fair comparison. The 93 assembles to 97+cm, and as mentioned is heavier because the board connection is a lot stronger. My 90cm Classic (94 assembled) with takuma adapter and mount is 1525 grams, not 2kg. 150grams is a small price to pay for the other features like compatibility and non-structural edges. My design is also 4 years old. If you want to save 150g, I completely understand. I have been a weight weenie in every sport:) But just be sure you have the correct data.

3. I have never had a single failure of a bonded joint in nearly 200 masts sold over the last 4 years, so I think the design is proven. I am very familiar with galvanic corrosion and use very expensive processes to prevent it. I don't know how NoLimitz is prepping their aluminum, but assume they know what they're doing (and won't make assumptions). I see a major benefit to the removeable mounts and adapters, because I have had some customers break adapters, screws, or mounts due to hitting things or undersized M6 titanium hardware (not my design). Fortunately, in all cases, masts were unharmed and/or easily repaired.

4. It continues to amaze me that riders want a monocoque carbon mount, despite my repeated justification for an aluminum board interface. My blog entry is not outdated and I am not ashamed; I was offended by that comment. The mast featured in said blog post is very new from a major brand. Out of respect for the brand, I changed colors and tried to hide design features. I have nearly 20 years of experience in composite joint design, and assure you that for equivalent strength at the board mount using tapered carbon, it would be heavier. And more expensive! Another guy, this time with claimed 30 years of experience (NoLimitz), offers a similar design, and you still question the logic? Once again, there is good reason behind this decision. If you want a monocque carbon mast, buy one. But if you want to use your mast with different boards, want it to be stronger, and lighter, then understand why Project Cedrus was designed the way it was. I don't do it the way I do because "it's hard to manufacture." I assure you that I have solved much harder manufacturing challenges with Project Cedrus than a tapered monocoque carbon board mount.

Project Cedrus is not perfect and it never will be. That's the fun part of design/engineering. But I will continue to work to make it as awesome as possible. And if it's not for you, totally no worries! Just please don't make assumptions about me or the design. I have been very transparent on my blog, on forums, and on the site, about why the mast is designed the way it is. I am always happy to answer questions. I'm sorry I get a bit defensive when I see people making assumptions or personal attacks; this has been a huge investment (financial and emotional!) so thank you for your understanding.

BayAreaKite said..
Hey everyone, Kyle with Project Cedrus here and wanted to chime in since this thread has gotten a little personal.

First, I knew it was only a matter of time before someone used similar technology to what is found in my mast. My goal from this project since day 1 has been to advance the technology of our sport, and it's nice to see I have succeeded in that. Competition essentially validates what you are doing, so I'm happy to have other players in the universal mast market. What I was not expecting however, was a blatant copy of my website and specifically the benefits of a lighter and stiffer mast. I find that a little obnoxious, but wish Steve the best of luck with his endeavor.

There are some technical things I want to address. As I've said before, with a zero/non-existent marketing budget, forums are valuable for me and there is some misinformation here that I would like to address. I also believe it's ok to challenge ideas and question them. But don't attack the person or make assumptions.

1. Project Cedrus' non-structural edges are there for a variety of reasons. Yes safety is one. If you don't need them for safety, great! I have some customers however who have expressed gratitude for the soft edges after getting bonked on the head following a crash. They also improve damage tolerance of the mast, as they are impossible to chip like a thin section of carbon. They are also lighter than carbon! Yes, the material is approx. 1.4 g/cc, while carbon is 1.8 g/cc. They are also a lot cheaper than carbon. Because edges lie close to the neutral axis of the beam, they do not offer much structural benefit to the mast. Fun fact: Airplane (aerospace) leading and trailing edges are non-structural! So if you'd like carbon edges that are heavier, more prone to chipping, and more expensive, there are plenty of other carbon masts on the market for you. But please understand the reasons for my decision and do not make assumptions about why I designed the mast the way I did.

2. Secondly, someone is comparing the weight of my 93cm Clydesdale to the 93cm NoLimitz mast. This is not a fair comparison. The 93 assembles to 97+cm, and as mentioned is heavier because the board connection is a lot stronger. My 90cm Classic (94 assembled) with takuma adapter and mount is 1525 grams, not 2kg. 150grams is a small price to pay for the other features like compatibility and non-structural edges. My design is also 4 years old. If you want to save 150g, I completely understand. I have been a weight weenie in every sport:) But just be sure you have the correct data.

3. I have never had a single failure of a bonded joint in nearly 200 masts sold over the last 4 years, so I think the design is proven. I am very familiar with galvanic corrosion and use very expensive processes to prevent it. I don't know how NoLimitz is prepping their aluminum, but assume they know what they're doing (and won't make assumptions). I see a major benefit to the removeable mounts and adapters, because I have had some customers break adapters, screws, or mounts due to hitting things or undersized M6 titanium hardware (not my design). Fortunately, in all cases, masts were unharmed and/or easily repaired.

4. It continues to amaze me that riders want a monocoque carbon mount, despite my repeated justification for an aluminum board interface. My blog entry is not outdated and I am not ashamed; I was offended by that comment. The mast featured in said blog post is very new from a major brand. Out of respect for the brand, I changed colors and tried to hide design features. I have nearly 20 years of experience in composite joint design, and assure you that for equivalent strength at the board mount using tapered carbon, it would be heavier. And more expensive! Another guy, this time with claimed 30 years of experience (NoLimitz), offers a similar design, and you still question the logic? Once again, there is good reason behind this decision. If you want a monocque carbon mast, buy one. But if you want to use your mast with different boards, want it to be stronger, and lighter, then understand why Project Cedrus was designed the way it was. I don't do it the way I do because "it's hard to manufacture." I assure you that I have solved much harder manufacturing challenges with Project Cedrus than a tapered monocoque carbon board mount.

Project Cedrus is not perfect and it never will be. That's the fun part of design/engineering. But I will continue to work to make it as awesome as possible. And if it's not for you, totally no worries! Just please don't make assumptions about me or the design. I have been very transparent on my blog, on forums, and on the site, about why the mast is designed the way it is. I am always happy to answer questions. I'm sorry I get a bit defensive when I see people making assumptions or personal attacks; this has been a huge investment (financial and emotional!) so thank you for your understanding.

Thanks for the good read and clearing some of the noise! 150 Grams is not even a close to a deal breaker for me.
My fractured shin bone could have used the safer leading edge.

I'm selling mine-too much flex f/a 90kg guy. Light as a feather stiffer than all the other masts except, gofoil and cedrus but I'm just going back to my Axis 19mm.

PM me if interested. 78cm. used 4 times

burchas said..
Revisiting thesubject.

Now that I have time on both Cedrus and NoLimitz masts I can say the difference is noticeable.
The abilityto ride same foils on these two masts back to back helpsinidentifyingthe differences.

NoLimitz is a well made mast and at 1250g with an F-One titan fitting it is lighter than the Cedrus by 300grams for 85cm.
The difference in drag is noticeable but so is the flex for my 85kg. The combination of both add some nervousness to the ride
that I haven't been able to shake off yet. I'll give some time to adapt but I will sell it if the feeling remains.

Cedrus is as stiff as f*ck and offers much more relaxed ride and although I've settled on F-One foils for now, I do like the
fact that if I dig another system in the future, this mast is going to be compatible. The NoLimitz is limited on that department

What do you mean by a "more relaxed ride" on the Cedrus?

Sounds like you prefer the Cedrus, is that right?

I've got a Cedrus and I am loving it (never ridden NoLimitz). There is more drag vs Takuma and Lift if I drop too low on the foil, but the solidity makes it extremely predictable and stable.