As someone who has been trying to get a flatwater paddleup for a year now, and intending to stay the course, I am continuing to work on my technique. And while my equipment probably has the potential to achieve this, I wanted to see if I could bring in a few of you to spitball on optimization of gear as any advantage going forward is key at this point. Not getting any younger.

I look at this in three parts, foil, board, and foil to board coordination.

For this thread I am asking about foil optimization for the purpose of a flatwater paddleup assuming the board and foil/board coordination is already optimized for this and the operator has at least the minimal level of sup skill to achieve lift off. I have worked with two foils, the low aspect Gofoil GT2600 and the Higher aspect Gong Curve 6XL that is 186 cm wide and has a surface area of about 3600 cm2.

I am starting to question if going with a foil so large in area is optimal with regard to the Gong. Is it possible that while the lift is greater, the drag from the size of the foil competes with that when only paddle power is being used to generate the speed needed. Seeing as I probably only have maybe 15 strokes to reach max speed, perhaps a foil with less drag would be optimal despite having less lift. I see some of you who weigh more than me paddling up on foils with less area like the Axis 1401 and the Naish Glide 1800 and while I am not forgetting about skill and practice, perhaps there is still an optimization of gear that can give a better chance to the kooks among us to achieve the goal.

Is there some point where a foil has adequate lift to fly an average to larger person over 80kg and going beyond that does not help and might actually hurt the process due to drag (and less speed being able to be generated in that first 10 strokes) produced by additional surface area, thickness of the front face of the foil etc? Is it possible that even though the Gong might have a lower lift off speed, it is actually easier to overcome the drag of the smaller Axis, get more speed, and achieve the lift off speed of that foil?

It is looking like higher aspect wings are better for this, with wider wingspan but with lower front face width (thickness of front facing edge of foil) but perhaps there is a diminishing return or even negative return when it comes to increased surface area past a certain point with regard to drag.

I still have some time to figure this out but appreciate any input on this before considering any next moves for gear aquisition.

Post video of yourself paddling across the frame so we can see your paddle technique. If you're buying gear, buy the biggest KT or Code foils. They are proven to work.

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Hdip said..
Post video of yourself paddling across the frame so we can see your paddle technique. If you're buying gear, buy the biggest KT or Code foils. They are proven to work.

Video will help detemine where you are at - I'd recommend going bigger than the KT and Code options for that initial lift-off. I've tried the Code 1540 and there are easier options for sure. The Axis 1310 and AK 2050 Plasma are possibly some of the easiest foils to paddle up for guys from 70-100kg. The AK pumps a bit better but both are awesome for learning. Match with 8'2 or longer board (longer allows more speed in displacement mode) and you are off to the races.

I haven't tried the Gong 3600 for flat paddle-ups but would imagine it's pretty tricky on in the lift off phase as it will toss you to one side unless you are perfectly balanced on it. The two foil options above also take some getting used to in this regard but totally manageable.

Anyone can learn it on the right gear, but it can take time, so just keep at it.

Board is important to help generate speed, paddle choice and technique - more to it than just the foil. I paddled up the 1675 armstrong's APF easily but that was on a 16 and 3/4 wide, 8.2 DW performance board. The 1350 APF was easier in a way because of that higher aspect less resistance thing you were talking about. I stopped there though as got in the ocean bumps and down to the 780ha /140 dart so no real point at the moment.

So many old clips of Jeremy riggs and crew paddling up the GT2600. Due to its characteristics its all about legs and not a great deal of paddle. Yes its very slow and draggy but considered to be the type of foil where all the flat water started.

They seem to just pump that sucker off the water in a few strokes.

I'm paddling up Gofoil GL 240 (1865 cm ) 17 FTL, 750 mast ,Dragonfly KT 8,2 x 21"x120ltrs
70kgs 63yrs .Theres some great videos on YouTube .Keep at it ,it's very rewarding and opens
up other foiling options,like paddling onto boat wakes ,Best of luck

Thanks for all the suggestions. I will be looking at some of these foils as it could be the case that going as huge as possible might not have been the best move. I am not an engineer so take any numbers I throw out with a pepper flake but using the lift equation for a hydrofoil, my largest wing does not achieve enough lift to raise 100kg until its moving at over 7 mph which probably aint happening. Perhaps there is some "point of engagement" that a foil will hit when it is producing a certain percentage of the load in terms of lift but I doubt that would be something I would be able to find or figure out.

Bottom line is I think that while a smaller foil in the 1500 - 1800 cm2 range might not have as much lift potential, it can give enough lift for engagement, lots of videos to prove that, and maybe the smaller profile, narrower leading edge, shorter chord allows for better pump synchronation to align with the sine wave involved.

Most of the successful videos I have watched show a paddle rate of 95 to 120 strokes per minute in the take off phase with around 110 being the most common representing a frequency of 1.82 herz for the wave path. Reducing chord width, lowering surface area etc with a smaller foil might just be more conducive for this situation.

I am going to give the GT2600 another go as the center of lift aligns with the center of gravity with my board better than the giant gong but as I will never have Jeremy's or Toma's skill I might need to give something else a try pretty soon. The axis 1401 could be the one I will take a serious look at first but the others mentioned look like good possibilities as well. Thanks again!

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LastFledgling said..
The axis 1401 could be the one I will take a serious look at first but the others mentioned look like good possibilities as well. Thanks again!

I could be wrong as I have not tried it but I think the PNG 1300v2 might be easier to paddle up.
I have a PNG 1300v1 and the 1401 and have managed to paddle them both up......just.
I have only done it a few times as I am an old guy and flat water is definitely not my thing but I can say the 1401 still needs a fair bit of paddle speed to get flying.
I think the PNG 1300v2 has more of a lift profile that would fly at a lower speed.

What paddle are you using? How is your paddling technique? Post a video and we can tell you if you need a different foil, or to just keep working on paddling. Cadence is king, don't pull the paddle back past your front foot.

Get your technique down and do plenty of warm up before full sprints. You can really damage your upper shoulder and in the end, paddling up in bumps is easy by comparison. Keeping the paddle length less than head height really helped me. Can't believe how many small pieces of that shaft I cut off and am now happy at 5cm under my height.

At some point I would like to post a video and personalize this in another thread. I know I need to keep working on technique - funny story, about six months ago I was convinced I needed to switch from regular foot (stance used for thirty years surfing and snowboarding) to goofy. Well that took three months to get down and now I actually feel equally competent on both sides. Part of the fun of going out now is alternating between reg and goofy in both the flats and the bumps I can get on the other side of the jetty. Hard to tell if having strong leg and arm in the front or in the back is better, both feel equally comfortable and so far both equally unsuccessful at this endeavor.

But this thread was meant as an attempt to generalize what would make for the easiest route in terms of foil design regardless of age, strength, or ability. And this has been helpful for me in that regard. The ginormous foils can work, but it looks like less surface area and chord width might be the way to go to have a foil that can give some engagement of lift at human paddle speeds but be agile enough to sync with human cadence ability and therefore provide the level of "apparent lift" needed to get the friggin board off the water. Not sure if it is an exact fit of terms but I am borrowing the word "apparent" from my kiteboard days when apparent wind was used from kite dives and cycling to get going in lighter winds.

Slower stall speed help, but if the span is so wide that your connection/mast twist tooo much, it's too wide and you will loose a lot of control...and when you learn...you usually not going subtile on foot pressure.

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check out Lee on YouTube, I think he might use similar Gong foil. charts his journey from falling off continually to 100m on foil. Worth a watch for guys like me who are old and have little skill. I've worked on it over uk summer with zero success, waiting for it to warm up again for round 2.

Yes! I watched his videos as they came out. Very inspiring. He is on the Sirus 5XL which has a whopping 249 cm wingspan.

Spent the morning paddling with the GT2600 after not using it since July or so. Here are some observations:

The GT, being significantly lighter than the Curve 6XL made the board feel a lot more peppy. I am not measuring my speed but I think I was able to get the board moving just a bit faster. Unfortunately, not having that extra half meter of wingspan as well as the additional stability the added weight of the Gong brings (it is also a bit less buoyant than the GT), my balance was not quite as good and my ability to keep the board on an even keel was compromised, but that can be worked on.

Still, each paddle stroke felt like it was bringing more power and I felt, for just a second, the foil start to engage in a way I never felt with the Curve. I felt this in regular stance once a little prominently, but I am starting to think that learning to go goofy was a good move as having that sync between the stronger back leg and the dominant hand giving the pull at the lower position on the paddle had a more powerful feel. But jury is still out on that one.

Another factor that could end up being a big deal was where the center of lift on the GT landed with respect to the center of balance on the board. The V2 GoFoil mast allowed me to move things further forward and at the farthest I could go without having the rear bolts end up in the T nut entry slot, those two centers were lined up. With the Curve the center of lift was about 4 or 5 inches behind the center of balance when positioned all the way forward in the tracks. Probably not as much of a factor when external power is being used but for unassisted flatwater paddling that might be playing a role. Any purchase moves, whether board, foil, or both, I think I will be making sure those can align.

So with this board, which is looking like I had made with the tracks a little too far back, the GoFoil with V2 mast might be more optimal than the Gong. I am looking at the GoFoil P1500 as a possibility but with a 11 cm narrower chord I will need to see where the (approximate) center of lift will land relative to the board. Unlike the GT it has a stem but I do not know if that will be enough. Also 1500 cm2 is at the very lower edge of where I would like to be and even though it has an AR of about 10 the wingspan is 10 cm narrower than the GT2600 which may or may not be something to consider.

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LastFledgling said..
Spent the morning paddling with the GT2600 after not using it since July or so. Here are some observations:

The GT, being significantly lighter than the Curve 6XL made the board feel a lot more peppy. I am not measuring my speed but I think I was able to get the board moving just a bit faster. Unfortunately, not having that extra half meter of wingspan as well as the additional stability the added weight of the Gong brings (it is also a bit less buoyant than the GT), my balance was not quite as good and my ability to keep the board on an even keel was compromised, but that can be worked on.

Still, each paddle stroke felt like it was bringing more power and I felt, for just a second, the foil start to engage in a way I never felt with the Curve. I felt this in regular stance once a little prominently, but I am starting to think that learning to go goofy was a good move as having that sync between the stronger back leg and the dominant hand giving the pull at the lower position on the paddle had a more powerful feel. But jury is still out on that one.

Another factor that could end up being a big deal was where the center of lift on the GT landed with respect to the center of balance on the board. The V2 GoFoil mast allowed me to move things further forward and at the farthest I could go without having the rear bolts end up in the T nut entry slot, those two centers were lined up. With the Curve the center of lift was about 4 or 5 inches behind the center of balance when positioned all the way forward in the tracks. Probably not as much of a factor when external power is being used but for unassisted flatwater paddling that might be playing a role. Any purchase moves, whether board, foil, or both, I think I will be making sure those can align.

So with this board, which is looking like I had made with the tracks a little too far back, the GoFoil with V2 mast might be more optimal than the Gong. I am looking at the GoFoil P1500 as a possibility but with a 11 cm narrower chord I will need to see where the (approximate) center of lift will land relative to the board. Unlike the GT it has a stem but I do not know if that will be enough. Also 1500 cm2 is at the very lower edge of where I would like to be and even though it has an AR of about 10 the wingspan is 10 cm narrower than the GT2600 which may or may not be something to consider.

Stick with the foils you have ;lean to paddle them up before spending more money,A tail wind and and a bit of a wave,is a good way to lean .??stick with it

Stop pulling with your bottom hand. Focus on pushing down with your top hand. Get the paddle out of the water at your front foot.

Still at it, gonna get this one way or another, either flatwater popup or chop popup so made a move on the Frank board 8'6" x 17" 120 liter and have taken it out in the flats twice.

This board feels a lot different (as in way more foil engagement than prior boards) and I am getting the nose to start slapping but still have a ways to go. I really think the prior board had the tracks set too far back based on the range of where I can set the mast on the new Frank.

The board has a warning to only use M8 30mm bolts which rules out the giant Gong (M6 bolts and quite a bit of foil) so I stuck the GoFoil GT2600 on it. Plan was to stick with that at least for a while but I noticed some serious wobble in the front wing today. I know this can be managed with aluminum tape or even wax but with wearing out body parts I want to give myself the best shot at this I can get.

And maybe matching up an Axis board with an Axis foil is the way to go. I looked up the V2 1300 PNG as was suggested and it has the same span as the GT2600 but 1000 cm less in area but based on everything I am seeing 1600 to 1800 cm2 should be more than enough area.

Anyone out there getting flatwater pops with the 1300 V2 and can anyone suggest a mast/fuse/stab rig up to go with it? Do not mind spending more at this point but Axis has some high modulus gear that is seriously pricey and perhaps the lower priced options in their lineup would work just fine.