First time poster here, lurked for quite a while. I have to say, awesome community here with everyone sharing stoke, experience and info.

Wondering your thoughts on how much foil designs have improved in the last 2-3 years, and how I could make the best progression in foiling. Let me elaborate.

My story getting into foiling is the following: about 3 years ago a buddy of mine who had just gotten into kite-foiling took me wake-foiling on his slingshot kite setup. I was able to control the foil and get it to steady flight and I instantly fell in love with the feeling of flying above water and knew I HAD to get into it.

Problem was, I didn't kite (still don't) nor did I own a boat so that I could wakefoil. Prone-foiling hadn't really taken off yet either at that time (it was just some videos of Kai Lenny ripping on small boards). I'm a competent surfer and have surfed since my teens (15+ years), so I wanted to get into foiling to ride waves. At the time (3 years ago) the way to do that seemed by riding a SUP. I remember seeing Keahi de Aboitiz's SUP foil videos and was mesmerized.

So at the end of 2017, I bought a Takuma BX 7'10 138L SUP and a Naish Thrust L (1236cm2) foil (55cm mast) in order to learn. Problem was: I hadn't SUP'd before in my life, so I had to go through the learning curve of learning to SUP AND learning to foil at the same time. I did one session behind a jetski on the SUP and the Naish, and it went ok. I remember how "big" and heavy the SUP felt though, didn't really make any turns. A few more sessions in the ocean, but then I injured my back and was out of the water for a few months and kinda forgot about foiling.

Fast forward a year or two and all of a sudden prone-foiling explodes. More and more videos of people dock-starting, riding waves, and double (or triple or more) dipping. Board design also improves as prone boards get more compact and truly optimized for foiling.

I suddenly realize that it's going to be futile to try and learn how to SUP and foil at the same time, but now that prone foiling has taken off and the equipment has come along, I know that what I need to do is learn how to prone foil.

I live in Europe but I have family in the US, so I can save on shipping by having them bring me gear. Doing so, I managed to score a deal on an Amundson Customs 4'6" and pair it with my Naish Thrust L foil and the 55cm mast that I already owned. This past summer I had about 10 sessions on that setup in the Atlantic (North Spain), and after 3 sessions or so I managed to make a few little flights. The stoke was high! I then went back to the Alps where I normally live, and had 4 sessions with this setup behind the wake boat in lake Annecy. I learned to surf the wake without the rope, make little turns and even ride the second wake for about a minute or so. Something "clicked" and I felt like I could actually ride the foil. I am now back in the Atlantic for a few weeks (Portugal) and focusing on foiling as much as possible to progress.

My biggest learning objective now is to progress in riding waves, and learn how to pump so that I can start connecting waves. I might get into kiting/winging in the future, but that's not my main objective (for now).

I'm not 100% sure that my setup is the most ideal to achieve that objective though. There's videos of Kai Lenny pumping the Naish Thrust L (but he's Kai Lenny..) but it seems that after 2018 foil design has really taken off: HA wings seem making pumping so easy, or even mid-aspects but improved designs (Takuma, Armstrong, Lift, Axis...). I was chatting with a guy on an F-one phantom in the water here in Portugal who was triple dipping, and saying "it's a gear game now", referring to pumping and connecting waves.

I'm curious on your thoughts on the best way to progress from where I'm at, and given my learning objective.

Is the Naish Thrust L a "pumpable" foil and should I attempt learning flat water pumping on it (dock starts)? Or would I benefit from a more "modern" foil design (HA, or MA like Armstrong HS series)? Behind the boat I could pump the Naish a little bit (in order to stay in the second wake), but sometimes I would lose the rythm and lose the wake wave. To be fair, I had the tail wing setup at negative angle, increasing lift but also drag, so I should probably set it up more neutral and move the mast forward. I'm 74kg btw.

Long first post , but thanks in advance for any advice and for all the knowledge previously shared on this forum.

I started on a Naish Thrust L in 2018. Got a Lift classic 200 in 2019. I'm on AXIS now with a 900 and 760 front wings.

Naish, I learned how to surf and pump and could often connect 2 for 1's.

Lift Classic 200, I could consistently connect 2 for 1's and it did good turns in the surf.

AXIS 900, (high aspect wing) First day I got it it took 3 waves to find the right position in the tracks. Got it setup correctly and paddled back out, caught white water way inside, immediately pumped out over 3 waves and turned around to connect a set wave outside. On my previous wings I could pump out that far, but never could then turn around and connect a wave. Game changer. After about 5 sessions on the 900 I began to see the limitations. The limitation is it is very slow to roll rail to rail. You have to preplan all your turns. (Yes, it turns, yes, I can do roundhouses on it, I'm not saying it doesn't turn) My record for staying up on foil is 2 minutes and I achieved it with the 900.

AXIS 760, I demoed and then bought the 760 front wing. It turns much more like the Naish and Lift do in the surf and if you know how to pump, it pumps very well. I can connect 2 for 1's consistently and 3 for 1's if I really try. it's much more energy intensive than the 900. There is way less glide between pumps as compared to the HA wings. It just turns so good though. 85% of the time I ride the 760 and only break out the 900 when it's real soft and there's no good sections for turns.

Another guy who foils out here by me had Ride Engine gear and was struggling to make 2 for 1's. He got an AXIS 900 and within the first week he'd surpassed my 2 minutes on foil mark and consistently does more than 3 for 1's.

So what I'm saying is, If you want to pump and dock start get a high aspect wing. The Naish HA wing should help you. That old Thrust wing is holding you back unless you are trying to surf shortboard style in the pocket. It's good for that.

The compromise surf/pump wings are something like the Takuma LoL 1300. I'd recommend that as a starter to get you moved to the Kujira when that's finally widely available as it looks amazing. The cloud9 F32 would be good too.

Select to expand quote

greg87foil said..
I live in Europe but I have family in the US, so I can save on shipping by having them bring me gear.

Spoiler alert: there are much cheaper quality offerings in Europe than in the US :-)
If you are serious about foiling, you will need a quiver of wings and stabs to go with your progression. It can become a hassle if you source your gear from afar.

And yes, you should NOT try to learn SUP just for foiling. The learning curve is not worth it, plus once in the air the SUP boards are much more cumbersome than prone boards.

For dock starts, just screw the foil on a wood plank (or a used wakeboard), and put a big handle in the center. You do not need volume, and more importantly you do not want to destroy a "real" board by hitting the dock. Plus the narrower the board, the easier to have your feet in the proper place.

A guy on the Gong forum is currently posting videos of his daily attempts at dock foiling, eliciting feedback from others, and it could be useful to you (whatever your foil brand):
The discussions are on "FOIL : Fran?ais / English >>> FOIL : Premiers pas / First steps >>> Pump board avec un wake"
In French, but it may interest you via Google Translate.

His last video:

Thanks for theadvice, looks like I'm in the market for a better setup thenSomething more HA or a surf/pump compromise, like Hdip said..

So many options though, I guess they'll all work and allow me to progress faster no matter the choice.. So far I'm mostlyintriguedby Armstrong as a platform (engineering wise makes a lot of sense) and people seem to love their HS wings (this forum).Takuma has caught my eye too with Kujira lately but also LoL series (goodvideos and reviewsonline). The few people I've seen in the water on foils here in Europe were on F-One phantoms, and they were pretty stoked on it too..

Colas, which cheaper quality offerings in Europewere you thinking about?

Select to expand quote

greg87foil said..
Colas, which cheaper quality offerings in Europewere you thinking about?

Well, you already know Takuma and F-One, and as a Gong ambassador it is not hard to guess which one I was thinking about :-)

Gong is much cheaper. A lot of people are happy with them. Some people think the connections aren't right enough and have to shim the connections.
I'm trying to get a cloud 9 setup to try right now.
If I had found a cheap takuma LoL setup I would for sure have gone for that.
AXIS has a super stiff aluminum mast which many people like and a ton of interchangeable wings.
signature/unifoil. They used to have the same wing designer. Good stuff. Expensive to get in the US. Some complain about flexible mast.
GoFoil. Full carbon wings are slow to come out. Seems like they do smaller batches or have production issues sometimes which makes them hard to get
lift. Full carbon. Great efoils. The ha170 appears to be the fastest pumping wing currently out. They have been having issues with the ha wings cracking.
who did I miss? All the carbon masts have some degree of flex. That bothers some people more than others.

Select to expand quote

greg87foil said..
Thanks for theadvice, looks like I'm in the market for a better setup thenSomething more HA or a surf/pump compromise, like Hdip said..

So many options though, I guess they'll all work and allow me to progress faster no matter the choice.. So far I'm mostlyintriguedby Armstrong as a platform (engineering wise makes a lot of sense) and people seem to love their HS wings (this forum).

Hi Greg, my progression regarding foils is NP Glide/ Axis 900/ Armstrong 1550 & 1250.

If pump is your priority, imo go with a HA wing (Axis 900 was a game changer for me but I quickly out grew it).

The Armstrong HS wings pump good (especially the 1850) if you know what you are doing but progression may take longer. These wings are medium aspect & turn really nice also stay nicely in control when hitting the whitewater (good allrounders).

I've also heard good reports on the LoL foil & the Gongs.

Remember pumping is hard work but some people make it look easy, you have to be going fast & stay high on the mast.