E-foils, fun or boring, my take

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BigSeppo > 9 months ago, 18 Feb 2022

BigSeppo

120 posts

18 Feb 2022 2:52am

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(((No idea why it's in the yellow boxes. Sorry about that. I wrote this, I am not quoting someone.)

A local shop went out of business and I was able to get a deal on the Lift V2 5'6" that they gave lessons on that has some age on the battery.

I assumed e-foils were like the jet skis of foiling... Get on for 10 minutes. Go left. Go right. Aaaand that's it. Done. (Except for towing of course with jet skis.)

This little e-foil review is not about price. I don't want to talk about whether it's worth the money. It's not about "why don't you go foil for real?" (FYI I wing foil, prone foil, SUP foil, and tow foil, depending on conditions and paddle distance to the waves.) Or "why would you mess with powered stuff when you can do it yourself?"

I just want to talk about e-foiling itself..

fun or boring?

So... I kinda expected boring. Like a jet ski rental on vacation.

Instead, after just a couple sessions, I am learning it's a crazy good useful tool for improving your foiling when there are no wind or waves. Here are some things:

- - you can tow your foil buddies into unbroken high tide swells, right off your beach. No boat ramp needed (not recommended at Snapper). But it opens up tons of foiling opportunities where we would be waiting for the tide to drop. Haven't done this yet. But soon.

-- you can actually self tow into unbroken waves with your foil board, and let go of the efoil. I haven't done this yet either. Looks like it will take a bit to work out steering and such. But check out Damien Leroy on You Tube self towing on a tiny high tide Florida day. Amazing

--you can get comfortable going at high speeds. On your regular foil, when downwinding or riding big waves or other things, handing new top speeds and carving at them can be downright scary. With the e foil you can get used to the feeling of hauling ass. So when the time comes on a downwinder and you are screaming down the hill with too much speed for the foil you have, you can handle it. You've been there.

--you can seriously work on your flat water pumping technique and stamina when the ocean is giving you nothing. Let's say you need to set the power on the hand controller on 6 to get you up out of the water and on foil. Well, once you are up, drop the hand controller power down to 3. I dare ya. Then you HAVE to pump to stay up. With the e-foil, you can work on Oskar's proper pump technique until your body gives out. Then if your pump starts to fail you, you don't have to sink... You can power back up to 4 and keep pumping. Or whatever works for your body weight. Man, my legs and heart rate are screaming. You can learn high aspect pumping body movements if you are stuck using low aspect pumping technique, and get a crazy workout. And I can translate these skills and stamina back to the ocean when the wind and waves show up again.

-- you can work on your wrong side wing riding. You ride wrong side a lot wing foiling. But it's awkward. You lack confidence. Now you can learn to lay into carves with confidence on the wrong side. Plus spending time on your bad side gives the back leg on your good side a break after an hour up on the e foil.

-- you can work on your winging footwork... Are you having trouble staying on foil as you switch feet from wrong side to toe side so you can jibe? You get so few reps to practice with the wing .... With the e-foil, you can learn to switch feet while on foil and get lots of reps, and no penalty.

- you can work on your carving technique. I didn't realize that SUP had created a habit for me of frontside bottom turning "belly first" longboard styling style almost all the time. I changed that on the efoil to a proper bottom turn, more bum out. Hopefully I will be mixing up my bottom turns again.

-- you can get a folding prop and kill the power and surf unbroken waves. Sure it's like a 30kg kit you are surfing. But hey, better than sitting on the beach waiting on the tide. Sometimes your window to get on the water doesn't line up with the optimal tide. I have not done this yet. With the current high drag prop on the Lift, if I kill the power you go down shockingly fast. So it will take a bit of sussing out. But better than nothing.

There was a thread a while ago called E-foils: fun or boring. I didn't read it. I already blew efoils off as the vacation rental jet skis of foiling.

But now that I'm a few sessions in, there's a lot more possibilities than I ever gave em credit for.

Was it worth the money? I dunno. Again, that's not the point. That's not the conversation I was hoping to have here.

My point is, I assumed "boring" and didn't give em a chance.

Now, it's fun. It won't replace any of my other foil sports. But I do believe it can make me better and fitter at all of them. And it gets me on the water when none of the other foil toys work.

juandesooka

615 posts

18 Feb 2022 3:39am

Yes indeed. I kinda thought efoils were lame, then I tried my buddies Lift v3 and it was way more fun than I expected. All the things I love about foiling, just easy. And as you say, lots of possibilities for cross-training and working on stuff that translates back to winging or surf/sup foiling. My buddy has the folding prop and is getting long unpowered rides on waves that are otherwise unsurfable.

The FoilDrive type system is similar, but maybe focuses more on the training possibilities directly. The motor comes out of the water once up on foil, so you don't have the drag and less weight, either for wave riding or pump training in flat water. However, you lose the high speed cruising and ripping around, requires waves to get that energy.

For a focus is on surf/sup foiling, winging can be a training tool too, especially when there's no waves. Luff the wing and flat water pump as far as you can, downwind or for more challenge, upwind. Practice harder carves, getting the tip out without wiping out, staying high on foil without ventilating, etc. It's similar to the efoil, just replace battery/motor with wind power.

MokesMax

48 posts

18 Feb 2022 3:44am

With the foil drive I really identify with your comments on learning to fly with feet switched and practicing pumping technique - either device seems to help speed things up a lot for that. Tow foiling was much harder to learn with feet switched due to the tug on the upper body - the "push" from the efoil seems a lot easier to learn with

PeterP

873 posts

18 Feb 2022 5:05am

Hmm - tried an e-foil Lift the other day. The weight of the set-up makes it so far off what I normally foil that even after riding around in big circles and turning left and right and getting a handle (no pun intended) on the throttle action, I can't really say I enjoyed over and above the novelty factor. The second you kill the gas it drops out of the sky, i don't know who'd be able to practice pumping with that thing, but I had no idea or desire as it felt like lead on your feet.

Pasquales

206 posts

18 Feb 2022 6:23am

I totally agree. It was fun initially to get the feeling for how foiling works, but the weight and turning radius was too much to deal with.

A friend who also sells them recently started taking off the front foils, and using them to two into surf.

paularity

111 posts

18 Feb 2022 12:50pm

For those that missed it in the other thread I wrote an article in foiling mag about this topic a few months ago

www.thefoilingmagazine.com/features/autonomous-adventures/

Dommo49

166 posts

18 Feb 2022 2:16pm

I've just gotta mention the new model that FoilDrive has just launched - the FoilDrive Assist PLUS. It's a souped up version of the original, bigger battery, more powerful and longer duraton (and no drop in power as the battery depletes it's charge), it's been designed to be able to do FULL efoiling if you want. It's a tad heavier than the original (3.7kg instead of 3kg), but I can't see for a second that anyone is gong to complain about 3.7kg added to their setup compared to the 25-30kg of a full efoil, especially when you consider what it can do.
I was one of the first people to get the original FoilDrive and i think it's fair to say that I've played around with it's capabilities. It was originally designed to assist you getting up onto foil for SUP foiling in surf, but it rapidly became obvious that it could help with so much more, most notably SUP downwinding and winging in seriously light winds. I then started trying to see what else it could do, so I put it on the front of a 43 ltr prone foil board and used it for prone downwinding and prone foiling in surf, and even messed around with partial efoiling - flat water starts on a SUP board without a paddle and then when up on foil using it to practice pumping around on flat water. More recently I've been using it to connect multiple waves by efoiling out back MUCH further than I can pump using leg power alone. Although it could do these things, it wasn't designed for it. For use with prone boards the box position gets in the way and adds serious swing weight, there is often loss of connection when the box goes underwater, and the battery life was reduced as the low volume board used much more battery power than when used with a SUP board. Any sort of efoiling meant the battery life was more like 30 minutes rather than the usual 3-4 hours when used normally. Enter the Assist PLUS - this thing lets you efoil properly with a fraction of the weight of a proper efoil. If you buy it with a long enough cable you can put the motor just above the foil, or coil it up next to the box on top of the board if you want to ride it with the motor close to the board so the motor is out of the water when up on foil. Battery life should give most people over 4 hours when used as an assist, but for full efoiling 100% of the time you'll get at least 40 minutes if you're over 90kg, more if you weigh less. If you want a longer run time, buy another battery and your total cost is still close to a 1/4 of the price of the efoils models that are designed to surf (not just cruise) and the beauty is that you have all the maneuverability and performance of your normal foil equipment, AND obviously you can choose to run the motor high on the mast so it's out of the water when you are on foil.
I've only used the big cruiser efoils (Takuma cruiser), and while I can see the fun they can bring, I can't see you'll ever get the same throw-around sensation, maneuverability and performance from anything that weighs in excess of 25kg. 25kg is still 25kg even if it's crammed into a 4'2" board.
Proper efoil capability when there's no waves or wind. Assist when there is. A fraction of the weight and price. What's not to love?!?

paularity

111 posts

18 Feb 2022 4:21pm

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Dommo49 said..
I've just gotta mention the new model that FoilDrive has just launched - the FoilDrive Assist PLUS. It's a souped up version of the original, bigger battery, more powerful and longer duraton (and no drop in power as the battery depletes it's charge), it's been designed to be able to do FULL efoiling if you want. It's a tad heavier than the original (3.7kg instead of 3kg), but I can't see for a second that anyone is gong to complain about 3.7kg added to their setup compared to the 25-30kg of a full efoil, especially when you consider what it can do.
I was one of the first people to get the original FoilDrive and i think it's fair to say that I've played around with it's capabilities. It was originally designed to assist you getting up onto foil for SUP foiling in surf, but it rapidly became obvious that it could help with so much more, most notably SUP downwinding and winging in seriously light winds. I then started trying to see what else it could do, so I put it on the front of a 43 ltr prone foil board and used it for prone downwinding and prone foiling in surf, and even messed around with partial efoiling - flat water starts on a SUP board without a paddle and then when up on foil using it to practice pumping around on flat water. More recently I've been using it to connect multiple waves by efoiling out back MUCH further than I can pump using leg power alone. Although it could do these things, it wasn't designed for it. For use with prone boards the box position gets in the way and adds serious swing weight, there is often loss of connection when the box goes underwater, and the battery life was reduced as the low volume board used much more battery power than when used with a SUP board. Any sort of efoiling meant the battery life was more like 30 minutes rather than the usual 3-4 hours when used normally. Enter the Assist PLUS - this thing lets you efoil properly with a fraction of the weight of a proper efoil. If you buy it with a long enough cable you can put the motor just above the foil, or coil it up next to the box on top of the board if you want to ride it with the motor close to the board so the motor is out of the water when up on foil. Battery life should give most people over 4 hours when used as an assist, but for full efoiling 100% of the time you'll get at least 40 minutes if you're over 90kg, more if you weigh less. If you want a longer run time, buy another battery and your total cost is still close to a 1/4 of the price of the efoils models that are designed to surf (not just cruise) and the beauty is that you have all the maneuverability and performance of your normal foil equipment, AND obviously you can choose to run the motor high on the mast so it's out of the water when you are on foil.
I've only used the big cruiser efoils (Takuma cruiser), and while I can see the fun they can bring, I can't see you'll ever get the same throw-around sensation, maneuverability and performance from anything that weighs in excess of 25kg. 25kg is still 25kg even if it's crammed into a 4'2" board.
Proper efoil capability when there's no waves or wind. Assist when there is. A fraction of the weight and price. What's not to love?!?

Hmmm, I just gotta point out that nearly everyone in these threads has only dabbled with the giant boat size eFoils - even comparing my original S1 Flite Pro 5'0" regardless of the weight it is significantly different beast to my S2 4'2" Ultra

Both Lift and Flite's biggest sellers are the big 5'6"ish boards hence why they market at boat shows and the like rather than targeting the foil frothing watermen type that frequent these kind of forums

I actually briefly rode the Lift v2 5'6" today on the old Surf 200 wing and it was quite a weird sensation having all this volume under my feet after 150 hours on a small board

One thing to note is that if you are say +85kg (on a Flite) with the arming of the controller and the receiver being at the back of the board, you will really struggle to get going on a 54l board since bluetooth doesn't transmit very well underwater and you're sinking the back of the board so it cuts connection

Mister Bennetts was shooting in Byron recently for the upcoming Series 2.2 release next week, so no doubt there will be some footage of a talented rider pushing some limits incoming!

And while I definitely agree that Foil Drive is a cool product - I'd be checking with Paul and Ben since it states on the Plus website:

"Foil Drive Assist Plus is not designed to be used on a Prone or Tow style, low volume Foil Boards. Due to the wireless connection, the box must remain above the waterline during usage."

"It's important to remember the intended purpose of the Foil Drive is an assistance motor, not a full-time e-foil. To be able to produce a system at this size, weight, and cost does limit the system's maximum speed. Flat water foiling with a high load above 90% throttle consistently is not recommended."

Could void your warranty? And $4400 is still a fair amount of cash if that's the case

MokesMax

48 posts

18 Feb 2022 4:42pm

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paularity said..

I agree with your points on the issues with Bluetooth connections (have experienced this with the efoil, and with a scubajet setup) as well as the super heavy board foiling sensation. The foil drive doesn't use bluetooth, it seems to be lprf and actually an off the shelf unit to boot. This is a huge improvement in my experience with connectivity as 2.4ghz with BL is terrible in water (not to mention stack overhead). Also for reference I tried with the original foil drive to see what throttle would be required to ride on cruise control once up and one data point was 80 percent on an Hs1850 at my 70kg with no swell energy supporting me. Not very scientific but in general I think flying below 90 pct consistently is doable. Truly efoil all the time I would still recommend a flite or lift to a friend but for other sports this is fun. Also the prices are in AUD which makes it seem like a discount here in the states. For winging this is great to get up to speed and not need as much boost as with sup

colas

5370 posts

18 Feb 2022 5:30pm

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MokesMax said..
This is a huge improvement in my experience with connectivity as 2.4ghz with BL is terrible in water

Yes, just for info, the 2.4ghz was chosen for most wireless devices as it is totally absorbed by water.

This is for safety reasons, so that any organic tissue - such as our skin - contains water and will stop the radio waves of the device (smartphone, earpiece, wireless mouse, ...) to enter the body, to prevent any possible detrimental effect on the long term.

So it makes sense that it is the worst possible choice for something that can get wet :-)

Ucycle

13 posts

19 Feb 2022 12:41am

I'm surprised they can't add an external BT antenna that you can mount it on to the nose of the board

colas

5370 posts

19 Feb 2022 5:10pm

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Ucycle said..
I'm surprised they can't add an external BT antenna that you can mount it on to the nose of the board

Could be just another hazard. Just using a different frequency is the logical choice, especially since wifi off-the-shelf components can now operate in the 5Ghz range:

"Damp objects such as walls, high water content objects such as people and also rain can cripple 2.4GHz networks whereas 5GHz examples are almost not affected."

www.4gon.co.uk/solutions/introduction_to_5ghz.php

juandesooka

615 posts

19 Feb 2022 11:47pm

Buddy is looking to add an antenna extension on a foil drive diy, to use it prone foil and mount on nose. I will report back if it works better

paularity

111 posts

23 Feb 2022 6:52am

mister bennetts on the ultra -

www.instagram.com/reel/CaSiobYAnWF/

juandesooka

615 posts

23 Feb 2022 7:52am

Pretty rad to see what the superstars of foiling can do on these things. Though some of the riding looks a little awkward, and if that guy looks kooky, imagine what you and I would look like.

[That comes back to foiling quite often looks a lot lamer than it feels, you can be out of 1' slop and feel like a champ, just don't see video of what it really looked like -- and similarly, if you see video that looks 'wow' it is probably way more intense and challenging than it looks....which is the case here]

Anyways, my buddy with the lift is all about chasing waves. The funny thing is, you can't really tell when he's on power or just using wave power. As they start to push these things beyond flat water and into surf applications, will be interesting to see if a standard "signal" develops, like dropping the remote onto the tether to show you're off-power.

For example: www.thefoilingmagazine.com/films/fliteboard-can-you-efoil-without-power/

paularity

111 posts

23 Feb 2022 8:03am

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juandesooka said..
Pretty rad to see what the superstars of foiling can do on these things. Though some of the riding looks a little awkward, and if that guy looks kooky, imagine what you and I would look like.

yeah I'd imagine because he isn't riding with foot straps and not used to the extra weight - same with some shots of Tom Court - looks really awkward

you can see him 'dangling' the remote a few times in that cut - it's actually annoying and distracting doing that to prove you are unpowered I'd rather just have it in my hand and lay off the throttle

my double downwinder from a few days ago -

admittedly touching down more than normal since I'm keeping an eye on the drone trying to keep him in frame and trying not to smash into Nath or his mast wash haha!

hilly

7979 posts

23 Feb 2022 8:37am

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juandesooka said.. imagine what you and I would look like.

Yep, I agree we would look ordinary. The pitch control looks difficult.

I wonder about eFoils and Foildrive being able to stand up to a wipeout on an overhead wave.

tomooh

276 posts

23 Feb 2022 8:56am

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hilly said..

juandesooka said.. imagine what you and I would look like.

Yep, I agree we would look ordinary. The pitch control looks difficult.

I wonder about eFoils and Foildrive being able to stand up to a wipeout on an overhead wave.

I have given my foil drive plenty of wipeout testing on overhead waves and once I reinforced the Velcro that holds the battery on the deck with straps it has been all good. Mostly it allows you to power out of the way of big sets though. I would say the plus model could be useful to get into big waves without towing if it was in the right hands and put on the right gear. Ideally with the battery box sunk in the board between the feet rather than behind the mast.

juandesooka

615 posts

23 Feb 2022 8:58am

Paularity: looks like the weight balancing is challenging, front foot pressure to keep nose down, but then keeping nose up if off power. In that video, it's impossible to tell if or when you are off power. From an efoil marketing perspective, that's a problem: when powered it's not surfing it may as well be water skiing ... so if using this as a personal tow-in device, need to be able tell when you've "let go of the rope". :-)

Hilly: I have a partially functioning DIY foil drive. I've only used it a couple times in tiny surf so far. One dream was personal tow in to big waves before they break, so can get in and down the line before the danger. Now that it's nearing reality, I am not sure that's realistic....so much going on, heavy gear, not really surf rugged....feels like that may be both unsafe and a high probability of gear destruction. It is bad enough getting worked with a sup foil and wing. Now add in a motor with an open prop and a bomb (salt water in battery) ... ugh. So...my dream is maybe switching more to little unbroken bumps than the bigger stuff.

Thinking more about the letting go of the remote: the lift efoil has fail safes, where if you fall off it won't function. Other brands, less so, and DIY maybe none. So, if something goes wrong in surf, you have to be 100% sure you let go of that trigger or it's potentially really dangerous. There is a risk of pulling the trigger under stress (can't remember the term from guns, but it's why trigger finger is always along gun, not on trigger, unless shooting). You may be safest if your hand is off the remote entirely.

paularity

111 posts

23 Feb 2022 9:27am

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juandesooka said..
Paularity: looks like the weight balancing is challenging, front foot pressure to keep nose down, but then keeping nose up if off power. In that video, it's impossible to tell if or when you are off power. From an efoil marketing perspective, that's a problem: when powered it's not surfing it may as well be water skiing ... so if using this as a personal tow-in device, need to be able tell when you've "let go of the rope". :-)

Thinking more about the letting go of the remote: the lift efoil has fail safes, where if you fall off it won't function. Other brands, less so, and DIY maybe none. So, if something goes wrong in surf, you have to be 100% sure you let go of that trigger or it's potentially really dangerous. There is a risk of pulling the trigger under stress (can't remember the term from guns, but it's why trigger finger is always along gun, not on trigger, unless shooting). You may be safest if your hand is off the remote entirely.

never unpowered riding in that video, not really doable (or looking good doing it anyway) in wind swell, you need a cleaner wave - and that was definitely the most risky over water situation I have put the drone in to date

and like I mentioned the target demographic and sales ain't the people of this forum - I mean even when I bought a first gen board nearly 2 years ago I didn't even consider using it how I do now on the daily, but even in that clip of Bennetts he is on the power for a lot of it - the board just handles much better if it's got even a little bit of thrust

That being said in the new issue of Foiling Magazine David Trewern mentions one of the engineers has clocked 1km unpowered rides over in Byron - they have updated the app and the telemetry to log this information now

Flite also has tilt detection so will cut the motor after you hit an angle where someone physically can't be on the board even if you are still pulling the trigger on the controller

I got absolutely punished yesterday trying to get out through some shore dump at Trigg - they are pretty durable and can take a beating, but you can't really duck dive - if the board was tomahawking around and hit something hard at speed well that's a different story - the physics of 25kg = no doubt something breaking. I doubt many leashes would be able to cop it either or bodies...

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