I am going to turn the old girl into a sloop I need the room not the mast at the moment.( mizzen will go into storage for at least ten years)
I intend to replace it with a longer boom by around 70 cm Id say that would be the difference where the mast sits normally on a sail master on top of the cabin. from where mine sits above the main bulk head
While talking to my sail maker on the phone he said will you remove the bow spit . I said no but after the phone conversation I thought maybe as I still have to swag and buy the wire for my rigging should I change the position of the Genoa mounting to to the bow of the boat instead on the end of the bow spit in doing that I would help the CE I think its called ( position of the mast ) with the possibility then
to use later style spinnaker that could be use off the bow spit forward of the Genoa .

Hi HG

Looking at photo's of the two boats i think that the H28 boom is already longer than the Sailmaster one is

What do you think

That is going to be a tricky conversion.
Underwater configuration is different as well.

Question....how does she sail currently under full main and genoa with no mizzen up?

And check to make sure the luff on your Genoa won't be too long for your shortened forestay...

I am sure you have seen this before ?

There appear to be a few Walker H28s originally ketch rigged, which are sailed without the mizzen. You can see Bubbles video sailing on Moreton Bay on U tube and this site. All that appears to happen is a bit of lee helm. Would not mess with mainsail and boom.

However, it would not be hard to move the headsail to a Solent stay position, which would improve the balance.
If I was doing it, I would:
* Add a new Solent stay hound directly below the existing
* Add a new lower mounting point for the new Solent stay at a convenient point at the back of the bowsprit (Cutter version would give a guidance.)
* Shorten the existing forestay to suit the new position, and mount on the new mountings.
* Make a new forestay to replace the one moved.

Given that your mast is already down, this should be a low cost option. Reverting to the original rig later would also be a low cost procedure.

Rig your mast the same as before Without the mizen take it for a series of long sails and modify if need be. It would be a waste of time and money to change things if in doubt it will change performance. My last yacht a Dunc 37 ketch I changed it to sloop and didn't alter the mast base and chain plates and she still sailed nice to all points at max hull speed.

Had further thoughts on this subject. The only time not having the mizzen is going to be a problem, is in strong winds, with a reefed main and a reefed-in jib. In this situation the centre of effort of the rig is going to be further forward, and the lee helm will increase. Lee helm is not fail-safe.

As suggested in previous threads, a Solent rig will help. So you could leave your genoa jib where it is, and rig a new Solent stay as per my previous post. Then in strong wind conditions you fly your hank-on storm jib from the Solent stay. This should help with the lee helm.

Of course, in strong wind you could just use a reefed main alone, but that is not as efficient as main+jib, and this might be a critical factor if you are trying to claw your way off a lee shore.

I agree however, a couple of points.

In heavy air most boats carry more weather helm because of heeling and corkscrew effect. You'll notice many ketch owners including H28s will leave their mizzen down in stronger breezes; so I'm no sure the issue will be problematic in moderate to heavy air when the boat is powered up.

Light to moderate winds where the boat will be standing up more may find you experience lee helm.

Is there an H28 owners forum that will have some experience of it?

The mizzen is good on a reach not for down and not for
Beating up wind
Beating up wind you should drop the mizzen
Wind behind you you drop the mizzen
Mizzen good for reaching and at anchor
Small boats are a compromise
I chose solar and a less cramped cockpit
The walker h28 can only obtain a speed of around 6 knots
Once that is reached if the wind increases drop some sail
I had a chat to my sailmakers he saw no reason not to increase the boom length from 3.65 and add 70 cm
I did ask the question about moving the firstly back to the bow of the boat
He it's fine where it is

Not sure people are getting this, the mizzen is there to balance the boat.
Remember these boats are designed pre modern auto pilots.
It is not about the speed it is about the balance.
That is why I posted earlier this would be a very hard one to get right given the hull form, long keel and mast step position presently.
L

You might be able to obtain a sloop rig design, for guidance on where to install the mast (and compression post underneath it), the chainplates, etc:
forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?149763-Looking-for-H28-sloop-starting-point

Phone changed the wording should have read forstay

Noooo don't lol . I have a mizzen and if I could I would get rid of the main mast . I sail mainly on the mizzen , it's quite happy reaching hull speed without much effort And it's right behind me which means I don't have to leave the cockpit . But the one that I will be playing with this summer is a mizzen spiniker. ( mainly because I have 16ft skiff left overs ) Apparently they work quite well and once again it's all right there in the cockpit which being single handed has got to be a bonus . I do like your idea though of just removing it and leaving things as they are so it could go back if you change your mind and a spiniker on a furler . Keep us posted I feel very lazy following your progress

Bubble had trouble once in a storm where he wanted to get back to his mooring in a hurry and did not reduce the sail area and was over canvases for the wind speed. and had trouble with steerage
One other difference is my H28 is a ketch my bow spit shorter by 0.46 cm
Bubbles H28 is a cutter ketch with the mizzen removed

Bowsprit Projection Past Stem Head

Ketch 0.60 m

Cutter Headed ketch 1.06 m

Plenty sloops around


www.wah28.com/

Select to expand quote

Donk107 said..
Hi HG

Looking at photo's of the two boats i think that the H28 boom is already longer than the Sailmaster one is

What do you think

Full keel on the H 28 compared to the sail master of later years

Select to expand quote

HG02 said..

Donk107 said..
Hi HG

Looking at photo's of the two boats i think that the H28 boom is already longer than the Sailmaster one is

What do you think

Full keel on the H 28 compared to the sail master of later years

HG

I think that your boom is a fair bit longer than mine already

The both look to have about the same amount of length behind the traveller position but yours has a lot more length forward of the traveller

Regards Don

The Stay sail will be going back on so I can fit a storm sail hope to have one made for the main also

Look where your rudder and boom ends on the sail master Donk compared to the H28

My boom measures 3.65 meters end to end Donk I wonder what yours is and your main
Main area 16.45 sqm Luff 8.85 Leach 9.20 Foot 3.54
Mizzen area 7.3 sqm Luff 5.90 Leach 6.25 Foot 2.36

I roughly estimate my mast step is 70cm forward to your mast step Donk

completely different yachts

Select to expand quote

HG02 said..
The Stay sail will be going back on so I can fit a storm sail hope to have one made for the main also

Look where your rudder and boom ends on the sail master Donk compared to the H28

Hi HG

I thought the difference between the Sailmaster 845 and the H28 was that the Sailmaster is a bit less than 28 feet long and the H28 was actually 29 feet long

I think that the extra length is in the H28 cockpit

If you look closely on my deck moulding you can see a flat section without a non slip surface where the H28 mast mounts

Regards Don

Select to expand quote

southace said..
Rig your mast the same as before Without the mizen take it for a series of long sails and modify if need be. It would be a waste of time and money to change things if in doubt it will change performance. My last yacht a Dunc 37 ketch I changed it to sloop and didn't alter the mast base and chain plates and she still sailed nice to all points at max hull speed.

Id say that's what will happen S.A. Bubbles like his and has no regrets not having a mizzen
Ill fabrication a simple mount where the mizzen mast step it for now to mount my main sheet and the same on the boom end for the main sheet. Ill short some thing better next year for a sail track

Select to expand quote

Donk107 said..

HG02 said..
The Stay sail will be going back on so I can fit a storm sail hope to have one made for the main also

Look where your rudder and boom ends on the sail master Donk compared to the H28

Hi HG

I thought the difference between the Sailmaster 845 and the H28 was that the Sailmaster is a bit less than 28 feet long and the H28 was actually 29 feet long

I think that the extra length is in the H28 cockpit

If you look closely on my deck moulding you can see a flat section without a non slip surface where the H28 mast mounts

Regards Don

If I recall correctly the Sailmaster 845 has raised topsides, at least 2 inches so that makes the hull longer all over.

There is an existing design for sloop conversion of the Walker H28. This involves moving the mast base and chainplates aft. Probably a very good idea to use the established design principles for any such conversion.

Select to expand quote

Donk107 said..

HG02 said..
The Stay sail will be going back on so I can fit a storm sail hope to have one made for the main also

Look where your rudder and boom ends on the sail master Donk compared to the H28

Hi HG

I thought the difference between the Sailmaster 845 and the H28 was that the Sailmaster is a bit less than 28 feet long and the H28 was actually 29 feet long

I think that the extra length is in the H28 cockpit

If you look closely on my deck moulding you can see a flat section without a non slip surface where the H28 mast mounts

Regards Don

There are two sides to the story- the air and the water. Never mind fussing about the sail layout, the Sailmaster has a completely different underwater profile. Hence any discussions comparing the two in relation to the sails, and balance, is irrelevant.

Bubble- Where are you???

"Bubble had trouble once in a storm where he wanted to get back to his mooring in a hurry and did not reduce the sail area and was over canvases for the wind speed. and had trouble with steerage"

Weather helm when overpowered is caused by a change in hull submerged shape as the boat heels. So we need to know what problems Bubbles had. Too much lee helm? Too much weather helm?

Select to expand quote

Yara said..

Donk107 said..

HG02 said..
The Stay sail will be going back on so I can fit a storm sail hope to have one made for the main also

Look where your rudder and boom ends on the sail master Donk compared to the H28

Hi HG

I thought the difference between the Sailmaster 845 and the H28 was that the Sailmaster is a bit less than 28 feet long and the H28 was actually 29 feet long

I think that the extra length is in the H28 cockpit

If you look closely on my deck moulding you can see a flat section without a non slip surface where the H28 mast mounts

Regards Don

There are two sides to the story- the air and the water. Never mind fussing about the sail layout, the Sailmaster has a completely different underwater profile. Hence any discussions comparing the two in relation to the sails, and balance, is irrelevant.

What he said, These two boats share a deck and coachroof that was built from the same mould but modified to suit. That is the only similarity, any other comparison is non existent.

Select to expand quote

Yara said..
Bubble- Where are you???

"Bubble had trouble once in a storm where he wanted to get back to his mooring in a hurry and did not reduce the sail area and was over canvases for the wind speed. and had trouble with steerage"

Weather helm when overpowered is caused by a change in hull submerged shape as the boat heels. So we need to know what problems Bubbles had. Too much lee helm? Too much weather helm?

Bubble has a new addition to the family . Hes busy changing nappies

Well after the dust settled and commonsense prevailed its getting main and mizzen riggers picking up my remnants on Saturday

Ive made four stainless steel brackets out of 8 mm plate for the lowers two on each side will be fitted to the main mast lowers shrouds either side the originals were triangle of aluminium and had been moving with the slack rigging while sitting on a swing mooring for many years before I bought her.

I am thinking of replacing the spreader foils wire halyards have been playing havoc on the spreader foils






Cant wait seems a dream

HG you deserve many happy days sailing with her !!! Spring has sprung Good time to rerig !!!