After brushing on the non skid this morning and as the last two years the mizzen raises it angryness at me
I have two problems with it has a crack at the spreaders which I've had plated but still would not fit it
And the rigger is not happy if I hung a wind gen off it. its to light.to surport the wind gen

All of a sudden while sitting in the cockpit some alien spoke to me out of the sky today . Why don't you find a slightly heavier mast section that will support the wind gen which in turn takes away the doubt of the mizzen mast falling down also.
The Mizen mast is 8 meters long around 4 mm thick and around 110 X 85.
Perhaps there maybe a damaged section around that I could cut down to 8 meters or an old mast and use the original spreaders and I already have the rigging screws in 5 mm would just need a mast step and mast head to suit unless the second hand one I find has one
Visually I don't think it would look out of place if I did this.
Any Opinions appreciated

The Crack hidden behind the strengthening plate

I would strongly council against hanging a wind gen off the mizzen, the leverage of the mast amplifies the noise like you wouldn't believe. Are you really sure you want to sacrifice weatherlieness with a mizzen?

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PhoenixStar said..
I would strongly council against hanging a wind gen off the mizzen, the leverage of the mast amplifies the noise like you wouldn't believe. Are you really sure you want to sacrifice weatherlieness with a mizzen?

Mmmnnn sound transfer thru the cockpit sole!!! Sorry C...

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PhoenixStar said..
I would strongly council against hanging a wind gen off the mizzen, the leverage of the mast amplifies the noise like you wouldn't believe. Are you really sure you want to sacrifice weatherlieness with a mizzen?

You saying to leave it in the shed let sleeping dogs lay

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HG02 said..

PhoenixStar said..
I would strongly council against hanging a wind gen off the mizzen, the leverage of the mast amplifies the noise like you wouldn't believe. Are you really sure you want to sacrifice weatherlieness with a mizzen?

You saying to leave it in the shed let sleeping dogs lay

NOOO! Put the genny close to the mizzen off to one side Who cares what it looks like. With at least one fridge you NEED that Genny AND a couple of Solars hanging either side or the crockpit. That genny cost money and you need it !!!!!!
Would I lie to you C?

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brianlara3 said..

HG02 said..

PhoenixStar said..
I would strongly council against hanging a wind gen off the mizzen, the leverage of the mast amplifies the noise like you wouldn't believe. Are you really sure you want to sacrifice weatherlieness with a mizzen?

You saying to leave it in the shed let sleeping dogs lay

NOOO! Put the genny close to the mizzen off to one side Who cares what it looks like. With at least one fridge you NEED that Genny AND a couple of Solars hanging either side or the crockpit. That genny cost money and you need it !!!!!!
Would I lie to you C?

Yes, that's what I mean. You get a lot more out of a wind gen than you might think is possible. It's the mizzen that I am questioning.

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PhoenixStar said..

brianlara3 said..

HG02 said..

PhoenixStar said..
I would strongly council against hanging a wind gen off the mizzen, the leverage of the mast amplifies the noise like you wouldn't believe. Are you really sure you want to sacrifice weatherlieness with a mizzen?

You saying to leave it in the shed let sleeping dogs lay

NOOO! Put the genny close to the mizzen off to one side Who cares what it looks like. With at least one fridge you NEED that Genny AND a couple of Solars hanging either side or the crockpit. That genny cost money and you need it !!!!!!
Would I lie to you C?

Yes, that's what I mean. You get a lot more out of a wind gen than you might think is possible. It's the mizzen that I am questioning.

Yes the mizzen really just for down wind which I must say the H28 ketch does reasonably well .
it takes a lot of room for a 7.3 square meters of sail

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HG02 said..

PhoenixStar said..

brianlara3 said..

HG02 said..

PhoenixStar said..
I would strongly council against hanging a wind gen off the mizzen, the leverage of the mast amplifies the noise like you wouldn't believe. Are you really sure you want to sacrifice weatherlieness with a mizzen?

You saying to leave it in the shed let sleeping dogs lay

NOOO! Put the genny close to the mizzen off to one side Who cares what it looks like. With at least one fridge you NEED that Genny AND a couple of Solars hanging either side or the crockpit. That genny cost money and you need it !!!!!!
Would I lie to you C?

Yes, that's what I mean. You get a lot more out of a wind gen than you might think is possible. It's the mizzen that I am questioning.

Yes the mizzen really just for down wind which I must say the H28 ketch does reasonably well .
it takes a lot of room for a 7.3 square meters of sail

Not so H !!
The mizzen balances the headsail when the main needs to be doused in the event of one day having to claw off a lee shore in a blow.
If on a lee shore in 25 kts and you need to leave...and a lump of kelp wraps itself around your prop, you'll normally drop the main and sail to windward under jib and mizzen. If a ketch tries to sail to windward under storm jib and deeply reefed main it can't claw out because the effort is too far forward & severe lee helm will be the result.....in my opinion.
Lots of ketch owners may contradict me and I really want to be wrong because I know how bad you need more solar panels.
Now if you could move your mast back, say, 600mm then ok, in that case, no mizzen needed
In a **** fight a mizzen and jib ONLY can save the boat.
Kan Walker and old Herreshoff weren't dopes C.

Ok so it's problematic.

My thoughts: There's not much choice about placement.

If you made a decent bracket with good rubber damping like the one in the photo, the rig will be fine and you may need to have a brake on it for when you need sleep.

or... you can devise a way of mounting it forward once at anchor when your liveaboard power requirements for power step up. ie Make it removable.

Trying to help, I thought I'd type in this quote for your consideration. From "The Windvane Self-Steering Handbook" by Bill Morris (out of print), Ch 8, Sailing with Windvane Steering, section Balancing the Rig, sub-section Split Rig:

"Balancing a split rig, usually a ketch or yawl, is easier than balancing a sloop. On a ketch rig, the smaller main and fairly large mizzen spread the sails' effort more evenly along the full length of the vessel." ...

"A sailor I met on a Formosa 41 ketch in Pago Pago, American Samoa, didn't regard the mizzen boom as a problem at all. When tacking, he would drop the airvane back to the horizontal position long enough to let the mizzen boom swing over, raise and adjust the airvane, and continue on his merry way. Since vane steering is used mostly for ocean passages with little tacking or jibing, his system appears quite practical."

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someday said..
Trying to help, I thought I'd type in this quote for your consideration. From "The Windvane Self-Steering Handbook" by Bill Morris (out of print), Ch 8, Sailing with Windvane Steering, section Balancing the Rig, sub-section Split Rig:

"Balancing a split rig, usually a ketch or yawl, is easier than balancing a sloop. On a ketch rig, the smaller main and fairly large mizzen spread the sails' effort more evenly along the full length of the vessel." ...

"A sailor I met on a Formosa 41 ketch in Pago Pago, American Samoa, didn't regard the mizzen boom as a problem at all. When tacking, he would drop the airvane back to the horizontal position long enough to let the mizzen boom swing over, raise and adjust the airvane, and continue on his merry way. Since vane steering is used mostly for ocean passages with little tacking or jibing, his system appears quite practical."

Surely, a ketch without a mizzen is out of balance. Haydn wants the space for solar but for the above reasons every ketch rigged boat NEEDS a mizzen......sooner or later. No?

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brianlara3 said..
Surely, a ketch without a mizzen is out of balance.

I agree with you, but I'm no expert. I was just wanting to add to the discussion (for the experts) the thought on how self steering under sail, with either a windvane or an auto pilot, is going to work on all points of sail with the main mast in the ketch position minus the mizzen mast.

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someday said..

brianlara3 said..
Surely, a ketch without a mizzen is out of balance.

I agree with you, but I'm no expert. I was just wanting to add to the discussion (for the experts) the thought on how self steering under sail, with either a windvane or an auto pilot, is going to work on all points of sail with the main mast in the ketch position minus the mizzen mast.

Strangely, a ketch without the mizzen set is not as out of balance as you might imagine.

I suggest to Hugh that he steps the main without the mizzen and sucks it to see. He might be pleasantly surprised. Easy enough to step the mizzen later.

I would never suggest that Herreshoff and Alden and Giles were dopes, but the world moves on and there are very few modern ketches, even the big boats are now sloop or cutter rigged. And for a good reason. If you think you are going gentleman cruising (always down wind) up the coast you are dreaming. You really need good windward performance - or a big motor.

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PhoenixStar said..

someday said..

brianlara3 said..
Surely, a ketch without a mizzen is out of balance.

I agree with you, but I'm no expert. I was just wanting to add to the discussion (for the experts) the thought on how self steering under sail, with either a windvane or an auto pilot, is going to work on all points of sail with the main mast in the ketch position minus the mizzen mast.

Strangely, a ketch without the mizzen set is not as out of balance as you might imagine.

I suggest to Hugh that he steps the main without the mizzen and sucks it to see. He might be pleasantly surprised. Easy enough to step the mizzen later.

I would never suggest that Herreshoff and Alden and Giles were dopes, but the world moves on and there are very few modern ketches, even the big boats are now sloop or cutter rigged. And for a good reason. If you think you are going gentleman cruising (always down wind) up the coast you are dreaming. You really need good windward performance - or a big motor.

Haydn's Walker Herreshoff 28 came in two variants, ketch and sloop.
On the sloop the main is set about a foot or more further aft than the ketch.
Haydn's mast is too far forward to beat to windward competently when not balanced by the mizzen. (if it hits the fan that is).

let's go back to the original question.......new mast section.

To quote Chris @ Allyacht Spars," The cheapest thing about a new mast is the section"

You also have to do the following;
- Make new or alter mast head
- Make new or alter spreader and spreader base
- Make new or alter mast base
- Make new or alter some standing rigging as nothing is ever in the same spot and you don't want heaps of new holes

That's also assuming the new section has the following the same as your old
- Gooseneck height and type
- Halyard exits
- Vang fitting

Now if you were to find a new blank section and you were very good at ally fabrication then it might be viable, but either way big $$$ for a 28ft boat!!

With some crew I use the main and jib, solo I use a smaller jib and mizzen because it's easier to handle as the mizzen is at my finger tips and jib on a furler. But I don't have single line reefing so a solo trip forward is avoided. Sails quite happy in either configuration.my 2 cents. Step the main mast and go sailing it will.then become clear if yours really need the mizzen, oh when you have finished feel free to work on mine your doing a great job

He has the skills and equipment to do the work himself.
The mast section is most of his cost.

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brianlara3 said...

PhoenixStar said..

someday said..

brianlara3 said..
Surely, a ketch without a mizzen is out of balance.

I agree with you, but I'm no expert. I was just wanting to add to the discussion (for the experts) the thought on how self steering under sail, with either a windvane or an auto pilot, is going to work on all points of sail with the main mast in the ketch position minus the mizzen mast.

Strangely, a ketch without the mizzen set is not as out of balance as you might imagine.

I suggest to Hugh that he steps the main without the mizzen and sucks it to see. He might be pleasantly surprised. Easy enough to step the mizzen later.

I would never suggest that Herreshoff and Alden and Giles were dopes, but the world moves on and there are very few modern ketches, even the big boats are now sloop or cutter rigged. And for a good reason. If you think you are going gentleman cruising (always down wind) up the coast you are dreaming. You really need good windward performance - or a big motor.

Haydn's Walker Herreshoff 28 came in two variants, ketch and sloop.
On the sloop the main is set about a foot or more further aft than the ketch.
Haydn's mast is too far forward to beat to windward competently when not balanced by the mizzen. (if it hits the fan that is).

Thinking about it this morning if both forward lowers were moved aft behind the original spreader chain plate by the same distance the mast could be fitted as a sloop
I'd really like to see what Donks chain plates look like to give me a few ideas as his is the sail master sloop version
It's mast is fitted on the cabin top with a support from the keel the the cabin top
All my chain plates mount off the bulkhead

Here is a cutter version:
As would be expected, the capshrouds are in line with the mast, and the lowers are fore and aft of the caps. To modify a ketch would take a lot of structural work to ensure the chainplate stresses are properly distributed. A prop under the mast is also needed to take the mast compression down to the keel. The prop clutters the cabin.

Posts on U tube with a ketch without a mizzen clearly show lee helm at moderate breezes. Only a trial can tell HG how she would behave in a strong breeze-maybe the curve of the hull will balance things out.

What Yara said.

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Yara said..
Here is a cutter version:
As would be expected, the capshrouds are in line with the mast, and the lowers are fore and aft of the caps. To modify a ketch would take a lot of structural work to ensure the chainplate stresses are properly distributed. A prop under the mast is also needed to take the mast compression down to the keel. The prop clutters the cabin.

Posts on U tube with a ketch without a mizzen clearly show lee helm at moderate breezes. Only a trial can tell HG how she would behave in a strong breeze-maybe the curve of the hull will balance things out.

I do have a stay sail for heavy weather
I did happen to phone the guy who owned the walker Sloop was going to met up some time and have a look but he sold now.
In the Ketch all chain plates are connected to the bulkhead via stainless steel straps where bolts run through the deck and attach to Tangs and rigging screws /
I would say the sloop version uses the bulkhead for the forward lowers and perhaps the spreaders may have a stainless strap off the bulkhead not sure what the lower rears have
the sloop[ above would use what the sail master has Id say Donk owns one
you can make our Donks Lowers in this photo

My sette is similar to Donk and has a bulkhead dividing the settee under storage into two separate sections
and you can see the stainless lower chain plate in the photo above.
and when I look at the lower arft strap it looks much like the ones on my boat probably different length. mine are the same design on all lowers

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HG02 said..

Yara said..
Here is a cutter version:
As would be expected, the capshrouds are in line with the mast, and the lowers are fore and aft of the caps. To modify a ketch would take a lot of structural work to ensure the chainplate stresses are properly distributed. A prop under the mast is also needed to take the mast compression down to the keel. The prop clutters the cabin.

Posts on U tube with a ketch without a mizzen clearly show lee helm at moderate breezes. Only a trial can tell HG how she would behave in a strong breeze-maybe the curve of the hull will balance things out.

I do have a stay sail for heavy weather
I did happen to phone the guy who owned the walker Sloop was going to met up some time and have a look but he sold now.
In the Ketch all chain plates are connected to the bulkhead via stainless steel straps where bolts run through the deck and attach to Tangs and rigging screws /
I would say the sloop version uses the bulkhead for the forward lowers and perhaps the spreaders may have a stainless strap off the bulkhead not sure what the lower rears have
the sloop[ above would use what the sail master has Id say Donk owns one

Well, having a stay sail for heavy weather coupled with a reefed main then clawing off a lee shore should be pretty well balanced.
But I thought that you WANTED a mizzen so that you can mount the gennie. And if you remove the plate, tig the crack and grind it flush, then refit the cover plate surely it should be strong enough. Solar panels hanging over the sides of the crockpit. Yes?

Ive a solar arch in the making with included stern rail and two poles on the stern corners for wind gens .
Which after this thought thread will be fitted and see how it all goes
Bubbles sloop sails ok

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I do have a stay sail for heavy weather
I did happen to phone the guy who owned the walker Sloop was going to met up some time and have a look but he sold now.
In the Ketch all chain plates are connected to the bulkhead via stainless steel straps where bolts run through the deck and attach to Tangs and rigging screws /
I would say the sloop version uses the bulkhead for the forward lowers and perhaps the spreaders may have a stainless strap off the bulkhead not sure what the lower rears have
the sloop[ above would use what the sail master has Id say Donk owns one
you can make our Donks Lowers in this photo

My sette is similar to Donk and has a bulkhead dividing the settee under storage into two separate sections
and you can see the stainless lower chain plate in the photo above.
and when I look at the lower arft strap it looks much like the ones on my boat probably different length. mine are the same design on all lowers

Hi HG

The chain plates on mine are 2 triangular stainless pieces on each side of the boat go on either side of vertical bulkhead with 3 tags that protrude through the deck for the standing rigging to connect to

From memory they are fixed to the bulkhead and also fixed to the underside of the deck

The look something like this

Regards Don

Hi Donk
That Bulkhead would be the storage divider under the settee cushions Donk
Mines the same only off the main bulkhead one each side of the bulkhead and one on the bulkhead each side for the spreaders
Mine are not triangles but use the under deck for part of the triangle Mine use the Hypotenuse and the bulkhead become an adjacent part of the triangle

If lee helm is a problem, a tweak of sail trim and a bit of mast rake will often provide the solution.

Personally I didn't like dropping the main and running under heady and mizzen at all the only time that I did a passage (Noumea-Oz) on a ketch. A main can be a PITA to drop and stow, since it normally stows on top of a skinny bit of metal that is moving around a bit.

Yes, you can use a mizzen to tune the balance - but you can also use mainsail twist, mainsheet tension, cunningham eye, and traveller position to tune the balance without dragging around a whole lot of extra cost, weight and windage. Part of the reason ketches were once popular was that the mizzen and the mizzen staysail (which could be a huge sail) were almost free under many rating rules. Many of them were in fact a rating distortion.

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Chris 249 said..
If lee helm is a problem, a tweak of sail trim and a bit of mast rake will often provide the solution.

Personally I didn't like dropping the main and running under heady and mizzen at all the only time that I did a passage (Noumea-Oz) on a ketch. A main can be a PITA to drop and stow, since it normally stows on top of a skinny bit of metal that is moving around a bit.

Yes, you can use a mizzen to tune the balance - but you can also use mainsail twist, mainsheet tension, cunningham eye, and traveller position to tune the balance without dragging around a whole lot of extra cost, weight and windage. Part of the reason ketches were once popular was that the mizzen and the mizzen staysail (which could be a huge sail) were almost free under many rating rules. Many of them were in fact a rating distortion.

+1

I sailed a ketch once and found it would not tack without the mizzen up to create some weather helm. Only way was to gybe about.

Bubbles Walker H28 is a cutter ketch which has roughly 500 mm longer bowspit
The mizzen on a walker is for down wind sailing
You lower it to go up wind
In happy after chewing the fat to leave it at home
Ive lots of things to finish for the next 6 months on deck and below