Hi all...looking at these 2 boats, both capable coastal cruisers and inner harbour, although Tasman could be more lively. Tasman has inboard Yanmar....Space has outboard which could be stolen and lifting it would be a pain...the Tasman has been modified to be fractional rig,,,which means less sail area up front, correct ? Not sure how much difference between frac and mast head in terms of speed and functionality...
Your thoughts would be welcomed...
Thx

The Tasman with the inboard diesel has the advantage. Outboards on the stern are OK in flat water. An inboard with headroom is always going to be a winner.

A Top Hat is better than those two!

Getta Contessa !!

Is the outboard stern hung or well mounted? Whilst maybe better a small problem on a diesel can cost thousands.

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Madmouse said..
Is the outboard stern hung or well mounted? Whilst maybe better a small problem on a diesel can cost thousands.

A small problem on a diesel may also be a cheaper repair than having an outboard repaired. Most people could repair a diesel but outboards can be a bit tricky!

Talking about marine engine stories.. mate bought one of those Gold Coast stink boats with dual 350 Chevs. Nice boat, but one engine was toast, so a new engine was bought and installed. First few outings and new engine seized. Turned out a faulty inlet manifold was resued off the first donk and transferred the problem to the brand new engine.
Now a new/new engine and everything is reportedly peachy. Shudder to think of the cost.

Spacesailer has the engine mounted in a cut out in the transom. Lifts up when sailing so no drag. A 6 hp extra long shaft brand new is a lot cheaper than a new diesel, and is light enough to take to a mechanic if you can't fix it. I have a SS 24 with an old diesel and just getting the drive shaft, propeller and shaft seal sorted cost more than a new outboard!

Tasman is the one. Very solid boat !

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Yara said..
Spacesailer has the engine mounted in a cut out in the transom. Lifts up when sailing so no drag. A 6 hp extra long shaft brand new is a lot cheaper than a new diesel, and is light enough to take to a mechanic if you can't fix it. I have a SS 24 with an old diesel and just getting the drive shaft, propeller and shaft seal sorted cost more than a new outboard!

This is what l was driving at.

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nswsailor said..
A Top Hat is better than those two!

In what way? The Tasman and SpS are faster, much more spacious, turn faster, and unlike one Top Hat I've been on they probably don't almost have the keel crack off out near Lord Howe Island.

It would depend on the individual preference in layout etc between two boats that are quite similar in some ways but miles apart in others (ie one short and high with full bow and stern, one long and low with pinched stern) and the fractional rig would make me lean heavily to the Tasman IF it does not need to use runners on a normal sail. It looks to me as though it was one of the fine-column in-line stay racing rigs which could rely on runners to keep the stick up in winds of 20 knots or more.

However, the Tasman does look very nice and you may be able to stabilise the top section by dropping the stick and fitting topmast diamonds for a K or two if you found she needed it. They would transpose the backstay loads further down the topmast and normally allow you to sail without runners.

I would worry about a yacht which has had its rig changed from the original design. Maybe done by someone who really knows what they are doing, or maybe someone who thinks it is a good idea, but has no knowledge of engineering. Fractional rig needs the mast designed to handle different loads, and ditto with the shrouds.
BTW a 6 hp outboard is probably as efficient as a 10 hp inboard stuck behind a skeg, and with a fouled prop. A 6hp is "heavy" but manageable. Most people leave them in place on a Spacesailer.

I think the broader problem is simply thinking it's about choosing between particular designs when the reality is that at this end of the market there are so many ways that the boat could become unusable (points above about the engine are a good example) that the most important criteria is avoiding a lemon - inboard diesels being a prime opportunity for this to happen.

If you don't have a clear idea of what you want, you should be prioritising ease of use and likelihood that you can offload it when you know what you really want.

What I would be interested to know is, has anyone actually scrapped a fiberglass boat and if so, what did it cost to do it?

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Yara said..
I would worry about a yacht which has had its rig changed from the original design. Maybe done by someone who really knows what they are doing, or maybe someone who thinks it is a good idea, but has no knowledge of engineering. Fractional rig needs the mast designed to handle different loads, and ditto with the shrouds.
BTW a 6 hp outboard is probably as efficient as a 10 hp inboard stuck behind a skeg, and with a fouled prop. A 6hp is "heavy" but manageable. Most people leave them in place on a Spacesailer.

At least one Adams had a fractional rig when new in about 1975. A bunch of others were built over the next 10 years or so. Most of the fractionals seem to have been built to supercharge the design for Quarter Ton and JOG racing so they were built to go offshore in rough stuff if well handled. The boat for sale could well have been one of them.

Adams 8, Adams 10, Adams 10.6, Adams 21 were fractional rig designs by Joe Adams from late 70s to '80/'81

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Chris 249 said..
In what way? The Tasman and SpS are faster, much more spacious, turn faster, and unlike one Top Hat I've been on they probably don't almost have the keel crack off out near Lord Howe Island.

In what way?
Well, the Top Hat keel, is incapsulated, not bolted on, so can't crack off!
Has standing room and as a cruising yacht is a lot more stable.
Top Hats were designed for the JOG and have won many races.
The hull speed is 6.25 knots and are regularly sailed around 7 knots.
Oh, and a Top Hats can turn in it's own length.

Are you sure you've been on a Top hat?

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nswsailor said..

Chris 249 said..
In what way? The Tasman and SpS are faster, much more spacious, turn faster, and unlike one Top Hat I've been on they probably don't almost have the keel crack off out near Lord Howe Island.

In what way?
Well, the Top Hat keel, is incapsulated, not bolted on, so can't crack off!
Has standing room and as a cruising yacht is a lot more stable.
Top Hats were designed for the JOG and have won many races.
The hull speed is 6.25 knots and are regularly sailed around 7 knots.
Oh, and a Top Hats can turn in it's own length.

Are you sure you've been on a Top hat?

Both the Tasman and the Space sailer have encapsulated lead keels.
and the build quality is way better than a company which built toilets as it's main industry, plus there hasn't been rubbish found inside the keel to make up the weight as in a MRK 3 Tophat.
I know of two MRK 1 Tophats that cracked at sea POSSIBILITY was one of them.
Both the Space sailor and the Tasman are marginally faster sailing and would run circles around a Tophat Sailing.

Magnesium have you owned a Top Hat? Or a Space Sailer?

Top hat for sale. Lotta dough for a little boat but has all the bits, including tender.

www.facebook.com/commerce/listing/1208346110673312/?ref=share_attachment

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nswsailor said..

Chris 249 said..
In what way? The Tasman and SpS are faster, much more spacious, turn faster, and unlike one Top Hat I've been on they probably don't almost have the keel crack off out near Lord Howe Island.

In what way?
Well, the Top Hat keel, is incapsulated, not bolted on, so can't crack off!
Has standing room and as a cruising yacht is a lot more stable.
Top Hats were designed for the JOG and have won many races.
The hull speed is 6.25 knots and are regularly sailed around 7 knots.
Oh, and a Top Hats can turn in it's own length.

Are you sure you've been on a Top hat?

I'm not a liar or a fool, and I do know I've been on a Top Hat. As I quite clearly wrote, I have been on a Top Hat that suffered a major structural fault off Lord Howe. The owner, who was born during a circumnavigation on a Top Hat, showed me the scary span of the crack, which extended perhaps 2.5-3m in a U section. Are you claiming he and I are both liars?

From memory the Spacesailer and Tasman both also have standing headroom.

The Top Hat was designed for JOG/RORC racing and has rating distortions because of it, including the steep rise of the buttocks which is characteristic of Illingworth designs at the time and affects their downwind speed. The funny thing is that many people appear to believe that the Top Hat was designed as a comfortable cruiser when it was actually created as a racing machine, complete with rating distortions.

So how much more stable is the Top Hat? Where did you get comparative RMC figures for the Spacesailor, Top Hat and Tasman? According to Sailboat Data, they all have similar ballast ratios but the Top Hat is slightly narrower than the Spacesailer. The Tasman is almost 18" wider at BMAX, or 20% beamier than the TH- why would it be less stable?

The hull speed is irrelevant since they would all have similar hull speeds and it's not a precise or accurate figure anyway. Under JOG the Top Hat was the slowest-rating of the three, and by the time the Tasman and Spacesailer came out the Top Hats had largely dropped out of JOGging since they were no longer competitive, despite rating about 5% lower.

Encapsulated keels have their own issues. See

www.practical-sailor.com/blog/caring-for-encapsulated-ballast-keels-2

One problem is simple geometry - how do you ensure that the lamination in the keel is done correctly when you are dealing with 'glassing something that is impossible to reach because it extends over a metre and is only a few centimetres wide?

I've only sailed a Top Hat briefly. You appear to be claiming that one cannot give an opinion unless one has sailed a particular boat, in which case I may ask - have you sailed a Tasman or Spacesailor? Have you sailed all the boats you have an opinion about?

Thee Tasman also appears to have a very high capsize screening formula value, if that is important to you for offshore use. Some sailors dismiss this screen as being simplistic, however it is well established that a wave height of only 50% of beam width of any vessel can roll said vessel. The Top Hat seems to have a sensible value for this metric

Settle down boys. OP hasn't been seen for a week. Maybe he saw sense and bought something light with a nice long T-bulb keel and a massive spade rudder that would actually do more than theoretical hull speed.

In fact what would be awesome would be a new post from Thierry saying "what's the best hydraulic oil for my canting keel".

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Planter said..
Getta Contessa !!

This one is for sale in Pittwater -

www.boatsales.com.au/boats/details/1980-contessa-25/SSE-AD-18991987/