Keel broke off?

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bullrout said..
Keel broke off?

Yeah two rescued and one dead tragically.

All you can see is a spade rudder and a sail drive leg and most reports are saying it lost its keel which is fairly obvious from the photo.

Hopefully we find out what brand of yacht eventually. I know what my money is on.

??

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julesmoto said..

bullrout said..
Keel broke off?

Yeah two rescued and one dead tragically.

All you can see is a spade rudder and a sail drive leg and most reports are saying it lost its keel which is fairly obvious from the photo.

Hopefully we find out what brand of yacht eventually. I know what my money is on.

On what basis?

content.api.news/v3/images/bin/bc742100102c7db54d783e948be60071

Ex Runaway, Sayer 11m Osaka boat.
Lost a bulb in a subsequent Osaka but made Mooloolaba.
Was on way to Keppel Race start.

No confirmation of whale strike.
However the Keppel Race now has a series of virtual waypoints 25 miles offshore to be left to port from DI to Breaksea
It is an exclusion zone inside this and meet with DSQ

www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-16/man-dies-after-yacht-capsizes-off-lady-elliot-island/103984858

For those who want to have a look at the boat, click through the photos
www.facebook.com/runawaysailing/posts/for-sale-sayer-11-offshore-sports-yacht-are-you-interested-in-giving-yourself-th/606195439756003/

She does seem to have a very short chord keel, and did have keel issues that got her retired from the 2007 Osaka.

Was that the boat bought from Geelong in about January 2023? Looks like it. It was in the berth beside my boat. She looked super fast.

So much of this going on with tragic results. Are we in a world where it is actually not possible to engineer this type of keel so it will last as long as the rest of the boat?

forums.sailinganarchy.com/threads/yacht-loses-its-keel.246914/

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Shifu said..
So much of this going on with tragic results. Are we in a world where it is actually not possible to engineer this type of keel so it will last as long as the rest of the boat?

forums.sailinganarchy.com/threads/yacht-loses-its-keel.246914/

It's possible.

Of course it is possible to engineer a keel properly, but it could be hard to tell if the keel you have is about to fail. That sounds dumb, but there have been some cases where keels have fallen off after a few years of use. This suggests to me that there is a fatigue issue ocurring with some keels and fatigue is just hard to work out. You don't know the stress or the cycle number.

With the vast majority of keels, the loads are low enough for fatigue NOT to be an issue. This is the case with many metal structures, as long as the loads are low enough, the cycling of loads means that the structure will not approach a fatigue limit (the endurance limit). But strain the structure hard enough and fatigue becomes an issue. This is where small root keels with high strength alloys pose a bit of a problem. Reducing keel root thickness by half increases stress by about 4 times. So you up the steel type. Using higher strength steels can come at a cost in fatigue resistance, so you get higher allowable stress but less fatigue reistance (usually).

None of this is new territory, there have been thin steel keels lost for over 20 years. Professional boatbuilder had an article on this about 20 years ago. One of the problems they talked of was the lack of baseline data from a new keel. IIRC Coyote (one of the first IMOCAs back in the day that lost its keel) had issues with her keel in NZ and it was x rayed but there was no baseline to compare it with, so it was impossible to see for the metallurgists to see if the keel had been damaged. So you probably need to X ray a new THIN root keel so you can x ray your keel every few years, or put load cells in it and ensure it goes no where near its fatigue stress, or put a new keel on every time you change your rigging. (For high stress thin keels)Fatigue is a bummer of an issue. It is the reason early trimarans lost floats until designers learnt not to scrimp on scantlings in beams. I understand that people say that this can be engineered for but I wonder if anyone has embedded load cells in a keel root to actually get data about the stresses and cycling small root keels cope with and shared the data with others. I guess not and so it would be interesting to reverse engineer this keel and learn what scantlings may be underdone.

Sadly, in most boat disasters lawyers are placed at ten places and we learn little. Compared to aviation, where the Aviation Safety Authority reports from crashes to pilots this is a bummer. It would be good to know what stresses to avoid in keel design - this keel seems to have an issue. It would be good to at least have a plot of failed keel maximum stress and steel type along with age of boat and see if there is any pattern. A word of warning, I can design some boats, I am playing around with one of my designs now, but it is a cat, so any comments are from my background in being a Physics teacher who does engineering of composite beams rather than steel keels.

Its remarkable to me that we have safety standards for cars, aircraft and kitchen toasters but not yachts.

I agree with Shifu its astonishing that keels breaking off happens regularly and the issue is not fixed. As Kankama shows material fatigue is a known risk. If a keel can be responsible for life and death it should be tested often or replaced often even. Just like a Boeing 787 wing.

Even though I hate government intervention maybe this demands it. Yachts must be designed so that a given yachts keel can withstand a full speed impact and tested to prove it, a time limit on its use before replacement, and an appropriate certificate granted. Or if it is going to snap off proof the boat wont invert. Pretty simple.

AS implemented keel & rudder inspections. Accidents happen, 1266 Persons died last year in car accidents last year in Aus & more than 160,000 died in car accidents in India. Don't want risk, stay at home.

AS rudder and keel inspections does nothing but add cost. It provides no legal cover nor will they admit any liability if your keel does fall off.
Bad example.

Exactly, government intervention won't achieve anything.

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THREADPOLICE said..
Exactly, government intervention won't achieve anything.

I hope you aren't referring to AS as government. Wildly different entities.

The question is whether yacht racing is a sport, or a test of how deep are your pockets. Racing bodies could simply create standards which ensure safe engineering. Then it is a contest of sailing ability, not how far you can push the design envelope. See "Americas Cup".....

Its ridiculous to say preventable risk should be ignored.

The only reason air travel is safe is because preventable risk has been addressed and mandated by Government. CASA right? Its ridiculous to say Government intervention achieves nothing. Its achieved safe air travel. The reason you can take a Panadol and know its Panadol is Government intervention via TGA. Right? Marine safety at sea boosted big time by AMSAR. More successful Government intervention.

I'm not a chicken, my gf and I sailed around NZ sometimes in horrible conditions. So I am not advocating stay at home. Its really poor that someone can buy a boat without realizing that its design might make it an accident waiting to happen. If the buyer is informed its a design whereby the keel might fall off if he pushes the limits then its up to him. No problem. But he isn't informed that. And the unsuspecting crew don't know either.

Addressing preventable risk with minimum seaworthiness standards might fix that.

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THREADPOLICE said..
AS implemented keel & rudder inspections. Accidents happen, 1266 Persons died last year in car accidents last year in Aus & more than 160,000 died in car accidents in India. Don't want risk, stay at home.

And what have we done to reduce our road toll?

Alongside mandating safer vehicles, improving roads, training requirements etc?

1970 was the last time the national road toll was 80/100,000 vehicles.
Since then it has been steadily reducing. (1970 was when Victoria introduced seatbelt mandates, and there's been more since then)

I wouldn't think that people's attitudes to driving have changed much, but in 2014 the toll was 4.5/100,000 vehicles.

In 2020 it was 4.4/Billion vehicle kilometres.

If you want to compare vehicle safety to yachting safety, it helps to put the data in to context.

What have we done to make sailing safer?
-What are the lessons we learned and implemented from disasters like Fastnet, 98 Hobart, Cheek Rafiki?

-Do we have any data on number of yachts racing to relate keel loss and/or deaths to?
How does this number compare to vehicle related deaths?
How does it compare to Motorsport related deaths?

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D3 said..

THREADPOLICE said..
AS implemented keel & rudder inspections. Accidents happen, 1266 Persons died last year in car accidents last year in Aus & more than 160,000 died in car accidents in India. Don't want risk, stay at home.

And what have we done to reduce our road toll?

Alongside mandating safer vehicles, improving roads, training requirements etc?

1970 was the last time the national road toll was 80/100,000 vehicles.
Since then it has been steadily reducing. (1970 was when Victoria introduced seatbelt mandates, and there's been more since then)

I wouldn't think that people's attitudes to driving have changed much, but in 2014 the toll was 4.5/100,000 vehicles.

In 2020 it was 4.4/Billion vehicle kilometres.

If you want to compare vehicle safety to yachting safety, it helps to put the data in to context.

What have we done to make sailing safer?
-What are the lessons we learned and implemented from disasters like Fastnet, 98 Hobart, Cheek Rafiki?

-Do we have any data on number of yachts racing to relate keel loss and/or deaths to?
How does this number compare to vehicle related deaths?
How does it compare to Motorsport related deaths?

Road toll is UP 4.8% despite billions being spent.

& if you don't know what was implemented from the lessons we learned from 98 Hobart & Fastnet then you haven't been ocean racing in the last two decades.

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D3 said..

THREADPOLICE said..
AS implemented keel & rudder inspections. Accidents happen, 1266 Persons died last year in car accidents last year in Aus & more than 160,000 died in car accidents in India. Don't want risk, stay at home.

And what have we done to reduce our road toll?

Alongside mandating safer vehicles, improving roads, training requirements etc?

1970 was the last time the national road toll was 80/100,000 vehicles.
Since then it has been steadily reducing. (1970 was when Victoria introduced seatbelt mandates, and there's been more since then)

I wouldn't think that people's attitudes to driving have changed much, but in 2014 the toll was 4.5/100,000 vehicles.

In 2020 it was 4.4/Billion vehicle kilometres.

If you want to compare vehicle safety to yachting safety, it helps to put the data in to context.

What have we done to make sailing safer?
-What are the lessons we learned and implemented from disasters like Fastnet, 98 Hobart, Cheek Rafiki?

-Do we have any data on number of yachts racing to relate keel loss and/or deaths to?
How does this number compare to vehicle related deaths?
How does it compare to Motorsport related deaths?

How many road accidents have you read about lately where the cause was the wheels fell off? Design rules mean that most of the deaths relate to human error, not design.

Well said Threadpolice.

The only ones who know whats going on are those who have been ocean racing in the last two decades.

Most haven't. That's exactly why some kind of design safety standards are needed.

Quoting road toll figures say 1968 - 2014, directly from Wikipedia ATSB - per head of population. Dramatically lower. Thanks to Government intervention and vehicle safety standards.

1968 there were 28.2 road accident fatalities per 100000 population
2014 there were 4.91 road accident fatalities per 100000 population

Source Australian Transport Safety Bureau Report 2018

Well common sense tells me not to go on yachts with keels that look like that. If the harbour bridge was made out of steel girders two inches by two inches I wouldn't go on that either no matter how many engineers signed off on it. Typically that type of keel is held in its pocket by two bolts and compared to the length of the keel the pocket is usually ridiculously shallow.

Interesting however that the boat floated as I doubt mine would.

The report is probably wrong but it said that they had to clamber back onto the hull of the boat to raise the alarm. If so no one was wearing a personal e-pirb. Maybe life jackets offshore should be mandated to include personal e-pirbs. Keel loss usually gives no time to grab the boats e- pirb on the way out if you are below.

I certainly have one in my life jacket but then I don't usually wear the life jacket. Mind you I don't sail a yacht with a ridiculous keel like that.

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Trek said..
Well said Threadpolice.

The only ones who know whats going on are those who have been ocean racing in the last two decades.

Most haven't. That's exactly why some kind of design safety standards are needed.

If you'd been racing in the last two decades you'd know there are design standards. Stricter than the Governments in fact.

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julesmoto said..
Well common sense tells me not to go on yachts with keels that look like that. If the harbour bridge was made out of steel girders two inches by two inches I wouldn't go on that either no matter how many engineers signed off on it. Typically that type of keel is held in its pocket by two bolts and compared to the length of the keel the pocket is usually ridiculously shallow.

Interesting however that the boat floated as I doubt mine would.

The report is probably wrong but it said that they had to clamber back onto the hull of the boat to raise the alarm. If so no one was wearing a personal e-pirb. Maybe life jackets offshore should be mandated to include personal e-pirbs. Keel loss usually gives no time to grab the boats e- pirb on the way out if you are below.

I certainly have one in my life jacket but then I don't usually wear the life jacket. Mind you I don't sail a yacht with a ridiculous keel like that.

What about multihulls they don't even have keels!

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Trek said..
Quoting road toll figures say 1968 - 2014, directly from Wikipedia ATSB - per head of population. Dramatically lower. Thanks to Government intervention and vehicle safety standards.

1968 there were 28.2 road accident fatalities per 100000 population
2014 there were 4.91 road accident fatalities per 100000 population

Source Australian Transport Safety Bureau Report 2018

Again, despite billions spent, MORE people died.

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THREADPOLICE said..

julesmoto said..
Well common sense tells me not to go on yachts with keels that look like that. If the harbour bridge was made out of steel girders two inches by two inches I wouldn't go on that either no matter how many engineers signed off on it. Typically that type of keel is held in its pocket by two bolts and compared to the length of the keel the pocket is usually ridiculously shallow.

Interesting however that the boat floated as I doubt mine would.

The report is probably wrong but it said that they had to clamber back onto the hull of the boat to raise the alarm. If so no one was wearing a personal e-pirb. Maybe life jackets offshore should be mandated to include personal e-pirbs. Keel loss usually gives no time to grab the boats e- pirb on the way out if you are below.

I certainly have one in my life jacket but then I don't usually wear the life jacket. Mind you I don't sail a yacht with a ridiculous keel like that.

What about multihulls they don't even have keels!

I didn't think we were talking about multi-hulls although if buying one, which I have considered, I would definitely be looking at the cross beam and bulkheads together with the general history of that model if a production boat. That rules out lagoons or recent leopards (if there's luggage performance hadn't already ruled them out) plus a few lesser known designs.

For heaven's sake.

There are rules. You can't race Cat 1 or 2 if you can't prove your boat was built to the rules.

Here is a link to the rules: cdn.revolutionise.com.au/cups/austsailclubs/files/lhyvm6pc6cqytoho.pdf

Because someone died there will probably be an inquiry and if you want to know what happens in an inquiry, google one or go to the ORCV site because there are links there: www.orcv.org.au/safety/useful-articles-and-links

Maybe the rules are strict enough, maybe they aren't but it's completely ignorant to suggest that the sport is not regulated in regard to safety.

Here is some correspondence between World Sailing and the International Standards Organisation (the people whose standard you have to meet if you want to race cat 1 or 2): www.sailing.org/tools/documents/OC4aiiWorkingPartiesKeelImprovements-[27597].pdf

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THREADPOLICE said..

D3 said..

THREADPOLICE said..
AS implemented keel & rudder inspections. Accidents happen, 1266 Persons died last year in car accidents last year in Aus & more than 160,000 died in car accidents in India. Don't want risk, stay at home.

And what have we done to reduce our road toll?

Alongside mandating safer vehicles, improving roads, training requirements etc?

1970 was the last time the national road toll was 80/100,000 vehicles.
Since then it has been steadily reducing. (1970 was when Victoria introduced seatbelt mandates, and there's been more since then)

I wouldn't think that people's attitudes to driving have changed much, but in 2014 the toll was 4.5/100,000 vehicles.

In 2020 it was 4.4/Billion vehicle kilometres.

If you want to compare vehicle safety to yachting safety, it helps to put the data in to context.

What have we done to make sailing safer?
-What are the lessons we learned and implemented from disasters like Fastnet, 98 Hobart, Cheek Rafiki?

-Do we have any data on number of yachts racing to relate keel loss and/or deaths to?
How does this number compare to vehicle related deaths?
How does it compare to Motorsport related deaths?

Road toll is UP 4.8% despite billions being spent.

& if you don't know what was implemented from the lessons we learned from 98 Hobart & Fastnet then you haven't been ocean racing in the last two decades.

We've managed to reduce the road toll by 66% since it peaked in 1970, despite the massive increase in vehicles on the road since then.

The rate of deaths per 100,000 vehicles has been reduced by 95%.

Have we done anything near that well with looking after our sailors in the same period of time?