Upturned yacht off Wollongong.
Any one got more news

news.defence.gov.au/media/media-releases/hmas-brisbane-rescues-sailors-capsized-yacht-heavy-seas-wollongong

Nowhere seems to identify the boat

Select to expand quote

lydia said..
Nowhere seems to identify the boat

Yes that's annoying. Was it a cat, a yacht that lost its keel or a lift keel??? One would hope a defence website would be a bit more specific. It's not some Woke centered left wing ABC recent journalism graduate article.

Photo from Illawarra Mercury.

Cripes wonder what design that is. Looks like a smaller version of RAN7 the Fast40 winner............anyone know? Assume it was sailing from or to Port Hacking / Wollongong?

www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2018/06/07/video-ran7-behind-design/

Oh dear looks like it this, a farrX2

www.facebook.com/nexbaracing/

www.farrx2.com/

OMG! It's a brand new X2. Launched in Sydney in late April this year!

This shot taken 22/4 at Woolwich Dock as she was prepared for launch.
(edit: these guys didn't fit the keel)

At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious, at some stage she has lost her considerably long bulb keel, perhaps leading to a roll-over and loss of rig. Some pretty diabolical weather out there the last few days (for those not familiar with Sydney's weather lately).

I know some will say what were they doing out there in those conditions but remember this happened 1AM Saturday morning (e.g. Friday night) and the weather didn't deteriorate in the Sydney area until later Saturday morning. They were probably planning on being home by then until circumstanced changed things.

A 60square mile search area would indicate that the epirb wasn't activated ?

Defence Aust post includes a photo

www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=421581993342676&set=a.161130106054534

I have marveled at the physics of these so-called sports boats from below when they are on the hard wondering what sort of exotic material bracing and welding could possibly hold them together when dropped off a wave repeatedly or experiencing other such forces as the ocean against wind and flat surfaces can dish out. I guess the simple answer is none. Any sensible persons gut feeling when looking at the thing is therefore correct. The ridiculous beam and dinghy proportions also ensure that it is more stable upside down than right way up once it loses it's Keel or even part of the Keel- even without a mast. One would think that these lessons were learned many decades ago after a Fastnet race but apparently not.
Does anyone seriously think that anything about the proportions of this boat look safe for offshore in bad weather?

Select to expand quote

julesmoto said..
I have marveled at the physics of these so-called sports boats from below when they are on the hard wondering what sort of exotic material bracing and welding could possibly hold them together when dropped off a wave repeatedly or experiencing other such forces as the ocean against wind and flat surfaces can dish out. I guess the simple answer is none. Any sensible persons gut feeling when looking at the thing is therefore correct. The ridiculous beam and dinghy proportions also ensure that it is more stable upside down than right way up once it loses it's Keel or even part of the Keel- even without a mast. One would think that these lessons were learned many decades ago after a Fastnet race but apparently not.
Does anyone seriously think that anything about the proportions of this boat look safe for offshore in bad weather?

Have to agree. Looks far too flimsy to be taken further east than the Harbour Bridge.

I am just chuffed to hear that everyone is safe. Sitting on a hull for anything even resembling 15 odd hours...man that'd be cold enough to seriously debilitate anyone, even in full kit. I feel for them, it must be just shattering after all that hard work making it a reality.
Jules, I don't know if I agree about wide beam = pinned upside down. I've never heard of one case where a boat stayed inverted due to a wide beam. And I specifically asked this exact question of a lot of yacht designers.
The X2 is a pure race boat that's all about getting every gram of weight out that they could whilst still qualifying for the S2H. The quoted specs of 2400kgs it less than half of the 12.50 with similar LOA/beam ratio.
I was comparing the difference in keel stubs a while back Nice example of the different design philosophies and weight reduction from a cruiser/racer to a thoroughbred racer albeit she is 10' shorter (the 12.50 keel is 50% deeper draft from the pivot bearing for a scale of reference).


Edit: Sorry Julesmoto, you mentioned issues with righting of not just beamy boats, but with keel issues. Didn't read it properly, apologies.

Serious kudos for being able to hold onto the saildrive for 15 hours in those conditions. It would have been very scary.

Select to expand quote

Jethrow said..
I know some will say what were they doing out there in those conditions but remember this happened 1AM Saturday morning (e.g. Friday night) and the weather didn't deteriorate in the Sydney area until later Saturday morning. They were probably planning on being home by then until circumstanced changed things.

The weather there Friday was just awful. The Coastal Patrol have a limit to where they pass off rescues to the water police. The water police when it's too rough, pass it on to the navy. BZ to the boat coxswain and crew involved.

Select to expand quote

shaggybaxter said..
I am just chuffed to hear that everyone is safe. Sitting on a hull for anything even resembling 15 odd hours...man that'd be cold enough to seriously debilitate anyone, even in full kit. I feel for them, it must be just shattering after all that hard work making it a reality.
Jules, I don't know if I agree about wide beam = pinned upside down. I've never heard of one case where a boat stayed inverted due to a wide beam. And I specifically asked this exact question of a lot of yacht designers.
The X2 is a pure race boat that's all about getting every gram of weight out that they could whilst still qualifying for the S2H. The quoted specs of 2400kgs it less than half of the 12.50 with similar LOA/beam ratio.
I was comparing the difference in keel stubs a while back Nice example of the different design philosophies and weight reduction from a cruiser/racer to a thoroughbred racer albeit she is 10' shorter (the 12.50 keel is 50% deeper draft from the pivot bearing for a scale of reference).


Edit: Sorry Julesmoto, you mentioned issues with righting of not just beamy boats, but with keel issues. Didn't read it properly, apologies.

There's been quite a few instances where a yacht stayed upside down with keel attached for far too long.

1- In the 1996, Thierry Dubois' Open 60 remained inverted with keel on for at least 24 hours.

www.racecarmarine.com/News/95756/When-yachts-capsize-in-mountainous-seas-and-high-winds

2- The de Ridder designed Liberty 47 in the 1991 Japan-Guam race stayed upside down for 15 to 45 minutes dependiong on your source, and only re-righted after enough water had come in to create a free-surface effect. Only one crew survived.

The Japanese then tested a conservative quarter tonner in calm water. They tipped it upside down four times andon three occasions it re-righted within 4 minutes once, after 9 minutes once, after 11 minutes once, and then did not re-right after 70 minutes! They believe that the difference was caused by the different trim the boat took on as it leaked while inverted. Without those slow leaks the boat would have stayed upright - and that was a fairly standard sort of boat. Of course, in reality waves will start the re-righting motion but the Japanese is fascinating because it shows how even in the same situation the same boat can take vastly different time to re-right. When the variation is so high even when the conditions are exactly the same, it's hard to make hard and fast rules from individual capsizes.

3- The Kiwi 35 Wingnuts stayed inverted and intact in a race on the Great Lakes, causing deaths.

4- In the 98 Hobart Naiad was inverted long enough for a crewman to drown.

That's just a few off the top of my head.

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

shaggybaxter said..
I am just chuffed to hear that everyone is safe. Sitting on a hull for anything even resembling 15 odd hours...man that'd be cold enough to seriously debilitate anyone, even in full kit. I feel for them, it must be just shattering after all that hard work making it a reality.
Jules, I don't know if I agree about wide beam = pinned upside down. I've never heard of one case where a boat stayed inverted due to a wide beam. And I specifically asked this exact question of a lot of yacht designers.
The X2 is a pure race boat that's all about getting every gram of weight out that they could whilst still qualifying for the S2H. The quoted specs of 2400kgs it less than half of the 12.50 with similar LOA/beam ratio.
I was comparing the difference in keel stubs a while back Nice example of the different design philosophies and weight reduction from a cruiser/racer to a thoroughbred racer albeit she is 10' shorter (the 12.50 keel is 50% deeper draft from the pivot bearing for a scale of reference).


Edit: Sorry Julesmoto, you mentioned issues with righting of not just beamy boats, but with keel issues. Didn't read it properly, apologies.

There's been quite a few instances where a yacht stayed upside down with keel attached for far too long.

1- In the 1996, Thierry Dubois' Open 60 remained inverted with keel on for at least 24 hours.

www.racecarmarine.com/News/95756/When-yachts-capsize-in-mountainous-seas-and-high-winds

2- The de Ridder designed Liberty 47 in the 1991 Japan-Guam race stayed upside down for 15 to 45 minutes dependiong on your source, and only re-righted after enough water had come in to create a free-surface effect. Only one crew survived.

The Japanese then tested a conservative quarter tonner in calm water. They tipped it upside down four times andon three occasions it re-righted within 4 minutes once, after 9 minutes once, after 11 minutes once, and then did not re-right after 70 minutes! They believe that the difference was caused by the different trim the boat took on as it leaked while inverted. Without those slow leaks the boat would have stayed upright - and that was a fairly standard sort of boat. Of course, in reality waves will start the re-righting motion but the Japanese is fascinating because it shows how even in the same situation the same boat can take vastly different time to re-right. When the variation is so high even when the conditions are exactly the same, it's hard to make hard and fast rules from individual capsizes.

3- The Kiwi 35 Wingnuts stayed inverted and intact in a race on the Great Lakes, causing deaths.

4- In the 98 Hobart Naiad was inverted long enough for a crewman to drown.

That's just a few off the top of my head.

Thanks Chris!

I just can't believe we are still seeing keels fall off. It just didn't happen until about 1985, when the first modern keels with really short roots started arriving. Since then the death toll has been disgustingly high. The basic physics are incredibly simple; why the keep on stuffing around with imposing extra costs for inspection etc instead of just dealing with the basic physical and geometrical issues is beyond my comprehension.

Just penalise keels with very short root chords compared to their draft and C of G and the loadings change dramatically and the structural problems become vastly easier to solve. Sure, the boats will be slower - by what, one minute per race? Is that really worth all the hassle and, even worse, the deaths caused by these keels?

More info about boat and crew here: rpayc.com.au/team-nexba-2022/

There was a FB post over the weekend confirming those on board and thanking the rescuers, but can't find it now.

I think the issue is trying to connect the keel to a low height frame in the bilge. If you have a keel box like is typically designed for drop or swing keels, then the hull /keel interface is not so vulnerable to stress concentrations. Designers don't want to do it tho, because it raises the CG. As others have said, time to compromise performance for the benefit of safety.

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

shaggybaxter said..
I am just chuffed to hear that everyone is safe. Sitting on a hull for anything even resembling 15 odd hours...man that'd be cold enough to seriously debilitate anyone, even in full kit. I feel for them, it must be just shattering after all that hard work making it a reality.
Jules, I don't know if I agree about wide beam = pinned upside down. I've never heard of one case where a boat stayed inverted due to a wide beam. And I specifically asked this exact question of a lot of yacht designers.
The X2 is a pure race boat that's all about getting every gram of weight out that they could whilst still qualifying for the S2H. The quoted specs of 2400kgs it less than half of the 12.50 with similar LOA/beam ratio.
I was comparing the difference in keel stubs a while back Nice example of the different design philosophies and weight reduction from a cruiser/racer to a thoroughbred racer albeit she is 10' shorter (the 12.50 keel is 50% deeper draft from the pivot bearing for a scale of reference).


Edit: Sorry Julesmoto, you mentioned issues with righting of not just beamy boats, but with keel issues. Didn't read it properly, apologies.

There's been quite a few instances where a yacht stayed upside down with keel attached for far too long.

1- In the 1996, Thierry Dubois' Open 60 remained inverted with keel on for at least 24 hours.

www.racecarmarine.com/News/95756/When-yachts-capsize-in-mountainous-seas-and-high-winds

2- The de Ridder designed Liberty 47 in the 1991 Japan-Guam race stayed upside down for 15 to 45 minutes dependiong on your source, and only re-righted after enough water had come in to create a free-surface effect. Only one crew survived.

The Japanese then tested a conservative quarter tonner in calm water. They tipped it upside down four times andon three occasions it re-righted within 4 minutes once, after 9 minutes once, after 11 minutes once, and then did not re-right after 70 minutes! They believe that the difference was caused by the different trim the boat took on as it leaked while inverted. Without those slow leaks the boat would have stayed upright - and that was a fairly standard sort of boat. Of course, in reality waves will start the re-righting motion but the Japanese is fascinating because it shows how even in the same situation the same boat can take vastly different time to re-right. When the variation is so high even when the conditions are exactly the same, it's hard to make hard and fast rules from individual capsizes.

3- The Kiwi 35 Wingnuts stayed inverted and intact in a race on the Great Lakes, causing deaths.

4- In the 98 Hobart Naiad was inverted long enough for a crewman to drown.

That's just a few off the top of my head.

Yes remaining upside down for any more than a few moments is a bit of a worry when one considers the watertight properties of average companionway set ups including mine. Opening and leaking of lazarette and cockpit lockers while inverted is also a source of concern.

Joubert designs with no horizontal sliding companionway hatch have appeal in this regard and a Currawong sold last year (Granny Smith?) had an interesting naval style wheel controlled hatch with multiple latch arms/dogs. Problem is if you read stories of being pooped/ washed overboard many don't realise things are bad enough to justify locking such a hatch when the rogue wave comes along. Hence the term "rogue" I guess :(.

Looking into my crystal ball, the boat structure did not fail, the fin (cast iron) did not break.
See how I go.

And Yarra, it had a keel box as you describe btw.

Select to expand quote

lydia said..
Looking into my crystal ball, the boat structure did not fail, the fin (cast iron) did not break.
See how I go.

And Yarra, it had a keel box as you describe btw.

So you think it might have just dropped out?

Bolts? Poor quality? Or not enough of them.
Good to hear they are both safe. Will be interesting to find out what happened.

Did a long delivery a while ago where boat had a keel box and the keel bolts in the top of the fin were in the cabin roof.
40 footer that drew 3.5m.
But here the bolts are not on shear if you look at the advertising pics of the boat.

How much headroom was there down below?

Not sure what you mean by not on shear? In shear? And can not see that on the pics on here. Maybe need to look at the advertising ( that they might be changing soon).
Until there is a report it's just speculation .
Not saying this is what happened but what has happened in the past is that things where designed to be in tension came loose and then shear load broke the fasteners or damaged the structure the fasteners where going through.
Compression of the structure the fastener is going through means less tension then putting the fastener into shear. That it was probably never designed for.
Unfortunately like so many things finding good quality fasteners now is not a given. Doing your computer calculations is all good until you throw some poor quality fasteners in there. Which unfortunately these days is a possibility.

As alluded to above, the keel fin to hull connection is a casette type, also called a socket type, to the ISO code as indicated here;

www.boatdesign.net/threads/fin-keel-bulb-construction-quick-connect-cassettes.66479/

www.farryachtsales.com/sales/boat/offshore-fast-40

T
In a keel box design there will often be bolts on the vertical holding it up (tension) and bolts on the horizontal (shear) across the keel box usually at the aft end.
Sorry should have explained better

Select to expand quote

sydchris said..
More info about boat and crew here: rpayc.com.au/team-nexba-2022/

There was a FB post over the weekend confirming those on board and thanking the rescuers, but can't find it now.

Thanks for the link. I had read on an overseas forum of the accident and the crew but for some reason the Australian reports failed to mention the crew were two young women. The two women probably headed offshore into bad weather as part of a work up for the upcoming event. lets hope we hear of some kind of report into the incident for a change.