Peter Foerthmannis the owner of the Windpilot windvane selfsteering company and the author of a pretty good book on self steering. This is an interesting blog on his point of view on the history of windvane steering. I have mentioned previously if you make a table of all the major brands of the dimensions, ratios etc they are remarkably similar. Peter is accusing the other brands of making copies! If you study the time frame from when some of the major companies operated then I'm not sure I agree who is copying who.

windpilot.com/blog/en/columns/peter-the-market/windvane-politics/intrigue-and-copycats/

Thanks, Ramona. The pictures alone make the article worth reading!

K.

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Ramona said..
Peter Foerthmannis the owner of the Windpilot windvane selfsteering company and the author of a pretty good book on self steering. This is an interesting blog on his point of view on the history of windvane steering. I have mentioned previously if you make a table of all the major brands of the dimensions, ratios etc they are remarkably similar. Peter is accusing the other brands of making copies! If you study the time frame from when some of the major companies operated then I'm not sure I agree who is copying who.

windpilot.com/blog/en/columns/peter-the-market/windvane-politics/intrigue-and-copycats/

I always had a sweet spot for Fleming but they have now gone out of business making only the occasional one .
It all started with model yachts and grew from there Hasler is the father of vane steering.

I bought one of the Selfsteering.com ones (Norvane) which also now appears out of business. After I had it for a while, I too noticed that the Fleming was 95% exactly the same.
My take on that is that that is design process, whether it is outright copying or everybody pinching good ideas. Most cars have 4 wheels, 3 are a rare oddity. If one company discovers swirl/pre-combustion chambers, then the others will study it and within a few years will have their own versions. Most mammals walk on 4 legs, but some swim or fly, birds walk on 2 legs and fly with 2 - it's a good design to work with, so why do something radical that is not proven?

The other thing to note from Mr Foerthmannis' blog is that these windvanes are sturdy, and rarely need servicing or spare bearings, hence every customer has to be a new customer, and the market is very very tiny.

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Zzzzzz said..

Ramona said..

I always had a sweet spot for Fleming but they have now gone out of business making only the occasional one .
It all started with model yachts and grew from there Hasler is the father of vane steering.

Hasler developed the servo system on a horizontal axis windvane in the early sixties. The first true windvane steering systems were as you say on model yachts from the 1920's.

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FabulousPhill said..
I bought one of the Selfsteering.com ones (Norvane) which also now appears out of business. After I had it for a while, I too noticed that the Fleming was 95% exactly the same.
My take on that is that that is design process, whether it is outright copying or everybody pinching good ideas. Most cars have 4 wheels, 3 are a rare oddity. If one company discovers swirl/pre-combustion chambers, then the others will study it and within a few years will have their own versions. Most mammals walk on 4 legs, but some swim or fly, birds walk on 2 legs and fly with 2 - it's a good design to work with, so why do something radical that is not proven?

The other thing to note from Mr Foerthmannis' blog is that these windvanes are sturdy, and rarely need servicing or spare bearings, hence every customer has to be a new customer, and the market is very very tiny.

The British built Aries by Nick Franklin was probably the first production units. His American friend started building the Monitor soon after Nick showed him his unit. They look very different but the gearing, dimensions and leverage are exactly the same. Apparently they stocked spares for both units so if you wanted Aries parts in the USA you visited the Monitor factory. The Flemings were also well established before Mr Foerthmann come on the scene and I think started putting patents on stuff that was already in wide use.

Mmmm, the principles being the same and those who were producing before patents were issued probably found the cost of a challenge to the patents too costly and relied on being able to defend any court case by the patent holder.

I know that I upset some people when I built a copy of a horizontal windvane.

After all its not possible to patient a right angle triangle!

Have looked at Peter's website before, lots of interesting information there.
Been on the receiving end of (inadvertent) patent infringement. It's such a rabbit hole, even if your invention was created with no knowledge of the patented device you are still considered in breach. Little people don't have the resources to go establish prior art, so you just get crushed out of existence.
I tend to agree with FabulousPhill, not that many novel solutions out there means the same thing gets invented in multiple places / times. As for windvanes, some of them are incredibly ingenious,I know I look at different types and try and understand how they work. If I ever build myself one I think I will paint it black and not take any photos!

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nswsailor said..
Mmmm, the principles being the same and those who were producing before patents were issued probably found the cost of a challenge to the patents too costly and relied on being able to defend any court case by the patent holder.

I know that I upset some people when I built a copy of a horizontal windvane.

After all its not possible to patient a right angle triangle!

That was because you basically reversed engineered the guys windvane The
hebridean wind vane and told the world about it

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Zzzzzz said..

nswsailor said..
Mmmm, the principles being the same and those who were producing before patents were issued probably found the cost of a challenge to the patents too costly and relied on being able to defend any court case by the patent holder.

I know that I upset some people when I built a copy of a horizontal windvane.

After all its not possible to patient a right angle triangle!

That was because you basically reversed engineered the guys windvane The
hebridean wind vane and told the world about it

Bugger and I'm not Chinese either

Was doing some research on the Fleming that came with my boat and found this on Gumtree if anyone is looking to buy.

www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/scarborough/boat-accessories-parts/yacht-wind-steering-system-fleming-global-offshore-501-/1264114720

So I have a Flemmings self steering wind vane on Spindrift.
I have been waiting to find the wind sensor which I did today.
While my boat is attached to the mooring I will;
Lower the trim tab (the self steering rudder) into the water.
Then attach the wind sensor to the top of the wind vane.
Position the wind sensor pointing directly into the wind.
Watch what happens.
If the wind changes direction:
I expect see some movement in the vane until the boat points directly into the wind again.
If this works I can then attach the blocks and lines to the vane.
Does this sound like a plan?

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Bundeenabuoy said..
So I have a Flemmings self steering wind vane on Spindrift.
I have been waiting to find the wind sensor which I did today.
While my boat is attached to the mooring I will;
Lower the trim tab (the self steering rudder) into the water.
Then attach the wind sensor to the top of the wind vane.
Position the wind sensor pointing directly into the wind.
Watch what happens.
If the wind changes direction:
I expect see some movement in the vane until the boat points directly into the wind again.
If this works I can then attach the blocks and lines to the vane.
Does this sound like a plan?

It only works when underway, if I am reading your post correctly.
If you move the vane you will see the Fleming rudder turn. When underway this will lift the rudder one way or the other thus turning the yachts rudder.
I can give you a hand to set it up one day if you like.

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MorningBird said..

Bundeenabuoy said..
So I have a Flemmings self steering wind vane on Spindrift.
I have been waiting to find the wind sensor which I did today.
While my boat is attached to the mooring I will;
Lower the trim tab (the self steering rudder) into the water.
Then attach the wind sensor to the top of the wind vane.
Position the wind sensor pointing directly into the wind.
Watch what happens.
If the wind changes direction:
I expect see some movement in the vane until the boat points directly into the wind again.
If this works I can then attach the blocks and lines to the vane.
Does this sound like a plan?

It only works when underway, if I am reading your post correctly.
If you move the vane you will see the Fleming rudder turn. When underway this will lift the rudder one way or the other thus turning the yachts rudder.
I can give you a hand to set it up one day if you like.

That sounds like a better plan.
I will try to give you as much notice as possible.

If you are in a river on a mooring with current past the boat then lowering the oar into the water will let the system work. The servo needs water moving past the oar blade to work. Just take Morningbird for a sail and see how easy it all is.
There will be a Fleming windvane gear on the market shortly, same model as on Spindrift. Mate with the Cole 42 has just bought an Aries.

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Bundeenabuoy said..

MorningBird said..

Bundeenabuoy said..
So I have a Flemmings self steering wind vane on Spindrift.
I have been waiting to find the wind sensor which I did today.
While my boat is attached to the mooring I will;
Lower the trim tab (the self steering rudder) into the water.
Then attach the wind sensor to the top of the wind vane.
Position the wind sensor pointing directly into the wind.
Watch what happens.
If the wind changes direction:
I expect see some movement in the vane until the boat points directly into the wind again.
If this works I can then attach the blocks and lines to the vane.
Does this sound like a plan?

It only works when underway, if I am reading your post correctly.
If you move the vane you will see the Fleming rudder turn. When underway this will lift the rudder one way or the other thus turning the yachts rudder.
I can give you a hand to set it up one day if you like.

That sounds like a better plan.
I will try to give you as much notice as possible.

On Saturday Morningbird helped me fit the wind sensor and the lines. I was a pleasure having him onboard.
I then bought new 6 gauge to replace the old worn 8 gauge lines.
I took advantage of the north easterly winds yesterday to sail back to Bundeena. The vane worked instantIy. It was just a matter of getting the tension in the lines right.

Thanks to all who offered me advice.
One of the side benefits is you have more time to think about sail trim.

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Bundeenabuoy said..

Bundeenabuoy said..

MorningBird said..

Bundeenabuoy said..
So I have a Flemmings self steering wind vane on Spindrift.
I have been waiting to find the wind sensor which I did today.
While my boat is attached to the mooring I will;
Lower the trim tab (the self steering rudder) into the water.
Then attach the wind sensor to the top of the wind vane.
Position the wind sensor pointing directly into the wind.
Watch what happens.
If the wind changes direction:
I expect see some movement in the vane until the boat points directly into the wind again.
If this works I can then attach the blocks and lines to the vane.
Does this sound like a plan?

It only works when underway, if I am reading your post correctly.
If you move the vane you will see the Fleming rudder turn. When underway this will lift the rudder one way or the other thus turning the yachts rudder.
I can give you a hand to set it up one day if you like.

That sounds like a better plan.
I will try to give you as much notice as possible.

On Saturday Morningbird helped me fit the wind sensor and the lines. I was a pleasure having him onboard.
I then bought new 6 gauge to replace the old worn 8 gauge lines.
I took advantage of the north easterly winds yesterday to sail back to Bundeena. The vane worked instantIy. It was just a matter of getting the tension in the lines right.

Thanks to all who offered me advice.
One of the side benefits is you have more time to think about sail trim.

Nice to see a pic with the lines set up. I'm assuming the line should be low stretch for it to be sensitive enough? Something for me to look forward to playing around with when I get back to Palana.

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Bundeenabuoy said..

Bundeenabuoy said..

MorningBird said..

Bundeenabuoy said..
So I have a Flemmings self steering wind vane on Spindrift.
I have been waiting to find the wind sensor which I did today.
While my boat is attached to the mooring I will;
Lower the trim tab (the self steering rudder) into the water.
Then attach the wind sensor to the top of the wind vane.
Position the wind sensor pointing directly into the wind.
Watch what happens.
If the wind changes direction:
I expect see some movement in the vane until the boat points directly into the wind again.
If this works I can then attach the blocks and lines to the vane.
Does this sound like a plan?

It only works when underway, if I am reading your post correctly.
If you move the vane you will see the Fleming rudder turn. When underway this will lift the rudder one way or the other thus turning the yachts rudder.
I can give you a hand to set it up one day if you like.

That sounds like a better plan.
I will try to give you as much notice as possible.

On Saturday Morningbird helped me fit the wind sensor and the lines. I was a pleasure having him onboard.
I then bought new 6 gauge to replace the old worn 8 gauge lines.
I took advantage of the north easterly winds yesterday to sail back to Bundeena. The vane worked instantIy. It was just a matter of getting the tension in the lines right.

Thanks to all who offered me advice.
One of the side benefits is you have more time to think about sail trim.

Excellent work. If anything the leeward line should have a bit of slack in it. If it is tight it adds friction without any benefit.
You have a very fine boat with Spindrift. She is a Lord Howe contender.
This is the video my crewmate did of our 2016 Lord Howe trip that I told you about. He gives a good run down on the Fleming.

I really enjoyed the video. Watched every minute of it. The trip, the island, the experience, all special to you and enlightening to the rest of us.

I really enjoyed the video. Watched every minute of it. The trip, the island, the experience, all special to you and enlightening to the rest of us.

Hi Palana,
As was said to me. It really is a simple thing to operate. The size of the wind sensor and the degree of tension were the two factors for me. Can I liken it to trimming a sail.
We ran out of wind and motor sailed with normal tiller steering later in the day.
There are others here much more knowledgable than me, but I am very keen to have another sail with it asap.

I always take out the slack both sides. Easy with a camcleat for each side. Those turning blocks on the cockpit coaming are better fitted as fixed units to take out the extra movement. We are aiming for better than Olympic helmsman standards of helming here!

With Ricochet the wheel steering requires the lines to be reasonably tight so they don't drop off the drum and both lines come down one side to a twin block. I used a rope strop to tension the blocks on the trip home but they will be eventually set on a slide sail track to adjust the tension.

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Ramona said..
I always take out the slack both sides. Easy with a camcleat for each side. Those turning blocks on the cockpit coaming are better fitted as fixed units to take out the extra movement. We are aiming for better than Olympic helmsman standards of helming here!

With Ricochet the wheel steering requires the lines to be reasonably tight so they don't drop off the drum and both lines come down one side to a twin block. I used a rope strop to tension the blocks on the trip home but they will be eventually set on a slide sail track to adjust the tension.

The blocks were what was onboard we could use. I agree, fixed blocks take out another inefficiency. With the tiller steered Fleming it is best to have the leeward line a bit slack. This will normally happen in operation with a bit of stretch.

Thanks for the tips and suggestions. I have cam cleats on the tiller but will need to set up blocks again when I get back onboard.