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scruzin said..
I stand by the claim that cats are “typically” faster compared to a cruising mono of the same length (LWL). Obviously there are slower cats and faster monos, but the power-to-weight ratio ultimately dictates speed, and it should come as no surprise that cats typically weigh less. That much is simply physics!

I mostly sailed Catalina 42s when I was a mono sailor and at at 8,165kg they were undeniably slow. Mind you, I still loved sailing them. By comparison, both the Seawind 1160 and Lightwave 38 displace 6,500kg (I'm talking max displacement, not light ship). And yes, for a 38’ cat, the Lagoon 380 is indeed one of the heaviest - and slowest - which is why I own a Lightwave. BTW, Australian designed and built.

Anyway, it’s great a see a robust, respectful conversation. Next time I may post "Why I like red wine"

If we took your Lightwave or my brother's similar-sized cat yes, they'd surely be a lot faster than most monos - but aren't they both a lot faster and lighter than the "typical" cruising cat? I used the Lagoon because it claims to be the most popular cruising cat (800 sold) and therefore like the Oceanis would seem to be a pretty good representation of the "typical" boat.

I keep half an eye out for racing performances as a measure of speed (while acknowledging cruising performance is different) and haven't seen much evidence of Seawinds going too fast. Allegedly when an 1160 was weighed for OMR it came in at 8965kg, way over the claimed weight.

Given that the physics also mean that a cruising cat has the structural weight of the bridgedeck and another hull, the weight difference often seems surprisingly small and not always in favour of the cat. I was surprised when I look up data such as the OMR weight of cats like Schionnings and Crowthers versus the IRC/IMS weight of comparable light cruiser/racer monos like Marten 49s and other light monos with furniture down below. The Catalina 42 is a very heavy boat by modern standards, but the 40 foot Lagoon and Leopard have a claimed light weight that is 2 tons heavier than even the Catalina!

I'm torn on the whole mono/multi thing - I want to be able to switch instantly from one to the other so I have the best of both worlds. :-) Enjoy your boat!

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PhoenixStar said..
Rudy Choy, Nicol and Piver have long gone.

Yep, but a surprising number of people keep on bringing up the claim of discrimination and bias and using ancient history as "evidence". Just last year a major cat sailing site was still commenting (incorrectly) about the ban of Amaryllis, which happened almost 150 years ago, and it wasn't long ago that even class associations were still complaining to ISAF about it!

Here is my new 2016 view with NO historical influence or 'he said-she said'...

I love to sail.!

I have a family and would love a cat (more for them than me)...but my $taste and $preference and overall $practicality$ inhibit this...

I am going for a mono because i can afford that and it will suit my requirements and is practical for my mooring and all the other costs of ownership...Vs Cat...Don't really care about which one is faster...i have a tinny with 50 horses on it for dealing with that!

Main thing is i can get out there, teach my kids and myself a few things along the way and have fun!

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Chris 249 said..

scruzin said..
I stand by the claim that cats are “typically” faster compared to a cruising mono of the same length (LWL). Obviously there are slower cats and faster monos, but the power-to-weight ratio ultimately dictates speed, and it should come as no surprise that cats typically weigh less. That much is simply physics!

I mostly sailed Catalina 42s when I was a mono sailor and at at 8,165kg they were undeniably slow. Mind you, I still loved sailing them. By comparison, both the Seawind 1160 and Lightwave 38 displace 6,500kg (I'm talking max displacement, not light ship). And yes, for a 38’ cat, the Lagoon 380 is indeed one of the heaviest - and slowest - which is why I own a Lightwave. BTW, Australian designed and built.

Anyway, it’s great a see a robust, respectful conversation. Next time I may post "Why I like red wine"

If we took your Lightwave or my brother's similar-sized cat yes, they'd surely be a lot faster than most monos - but aren't they both a lot faster and lighter than the "typical" cruising cat? I used the Lagoon because it claims to be the most popular cruising cat (800 sold) and therefore like the Oceanis would seem to be a pretty good representation of the "typical" boat.

I keep half an eye out for racing performances as a measure of speed (while acknowledging cruising performance is different) and haven't seen much evidence of Seawinds going too fast. Allegedly when an 1160 was weighed for OMR it came in at 8965kg, way over the claimed weight.

Given that the physics also mean that a cruising cat has the structural weight of the bridgedeck and another hull, the weight difference often seems surprisingly small and not always in favour of the cat. I was surprised when I look up data such as the OMR weight of cats like Schionnings and Crowthers versus the IRC/IMS weight of comparable light cruiser/racer monos like Marten 49s and other light monos with furniture down below. The Catalina 42 is a very heavy boat by modern standards, but the 40 foot Lagoon and Leopard have a claimed light weight that is 2 tons heavier than even the Catalina!

I'm torn on the whole mono/multi thing - I want to be able to switch instantly from one to the other so I have the best of both worlds. :-) Enjoy your boat!

We have a Lightwave 38 in our club and when I had the Catalina 445 we raced against it. Round the course the boats were very similar in speed and in fact my handicap we slightly higher. My current Hanse 575 has all the creature comforts known to man kind. and blows away most cats of similar volume and price. In my opinion you should be comparing volume and price, not water line length. My draft of 2.2m has never been an issue, even in Queensland.

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Jode5 said..

deletia..

We have a Lightwave 38 in our club and when I had the Catalina 445 we raced against it. Round the course the boats were very similar in speed and in fact my handicap we slightly higher. My current Hanse 575 has all the creature comforts known to man kind. and blows away most cats of similar volume and price. In my opinion you should be comparing volume and price, not water line length. My draft of 2.2m has never been an issue, even in Queensland.

No question the Hanse 575 is a lovely boat, but it's equally telling that one has to go considerably longer in a mono to get comparable space to that of (much) shorter cat. Anyway, I wasn't talking about the differences in space, but the differences in sailing.

Regarding draft, I raised that because a shallower draft is just about having more sailing options. It often means not having to wait as long for the tide to turn, or not having to anchor as far from the beach, or not worrying quite so much when sailing in poorly chartered waters, etc. I haven't sailed much of Qld (except for the Whitsundays), but here in SA many of the most protected and most scenic anchorages are notoriously shallow in parts.

Good seamanship can overcome many/most challenges of course.

BTW, crew ability might have played a part in your racing performance against that LW38

Interesting discussion here about cruising cats.

www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f2/collapsing-brokerage-market-for-monohulls-175113.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+cruisersforumnews+%28Cruisers+Forum+-+Emails%29

Interesting article.

It will be interesting to see if retired charter cats drive prices down in our part of the world too. Nautical tourism of course operates on a much bigger scale and has been going longer in Europe and North America - think the Mediterranean and the Caribbean.

FWIW, I bought my LW38 2nd hand out of an Airlie Beach charter company 7 years ago, so that's one data point.

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scruzin said..

Jode5 said..

deletia..

We have a Lightwave 38 in our club and when I had the Catalina 445 we raced against it. Round the course the boats were very similar in speed and in fact my handicap we slightly higher. My current Hanse 575 has all the creature comforts known to man kind. and blows away most cats of similar volume and price. In my opinion you should be comparing volume and price, not water line length. My draft of 2.2m has never been an issue, even in Queensland.

No question the Hanse 575 is a lovely boat, but it's equally telling that one has to go considerably longer in a mono to get comparable space to that of (much) shorter cat. Anyway, I wasn't talking about the differences in space, but the differences in sailing.

Regarding draft, I raised that because a shallower draft is just about having more sailing options. It often means not having to wait as long for the tide to turn, or not having to anchor as far from the beach, or not worrying quite so much when sailing in poorly chartered waters, etc. I haven't sailed much of Qld (except for the Whitsundays), but here in SA many of the most protected and most scenic anchorages are notoriously shallow in parts.

Good seamanship can overcome many/most challenges of course.

BTW, crew ability might have played a part in your racing performance against that LW38

You're dead right about the shoal draft issue. It's one reason I recently went looking for a cat, but at the price range we were looking for there was no cat that had anything like the space we wanted. Overall length does seem to be a misleading way to judge boats, especially when we're comparing cats v monos.

Just an observation....

Comparing my 2011 to 2015 voyages to the Whitsundays I can say that in 2015 there was a dramatic increase in cats, maybe 60%.

But in the case of monos the trend was towards larger boats.

Last year my Top Hat was very much one of the smallest vessel cruising on the QLD coast, most monos were 35' and up with the average in the 40's'.

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spiggie said..
Hi Folks thouight about writing a little blog as just recently after completing a few deliveries lately i am converted to cats, would like to sail on a tri as the modern tri is even better i am told they go to windward better ,dont buck as much, good short handed, the only down side is not much room down below.
I have sailed Monos for the past 45 yrs covered every ocean, i race mosty weekend on monos and sail about 8 or 9 deliveries a year on monos until just recently i helped deliver a couple of 40 ft plus cats which has me converted 54 hrs Sydney to Southport, 22hrs Sydney to Eden ,10 days Hammo to Melbourne
I have sailed through Port Phillip heads in 40 kts been in bass strait going to windward for two days in 40kts okay it was a bit rough but it was good to cook and eat compared to cooking on a yacht, Sleeping was comfy ,lots of shelter,stayed dry and berthing in a marina in 40 kts was good.
Downside on cats use more fuel ,cost more to run ,cost more to slip sometimes, and yep not to good going to weather but hey if your cruising wait till the breeze swings
So yep Think about cats when looking to buy i know i am .

Hi Guys about to race down to Devonport ,yea i know , this isnt really a racers forum and especially not a Cats forum ,forecast looked heavy tight reach but easing off ,hopefully break the record
Something diffrent and ENJOYABLE , delivery back looks good also !!!!!
After 15 Hobarts over the years something diffrent back on the 30 (i hope!!!!) never been pissed in Melbourne new years eve another 1st in my life.
Merry Xmas mono yachties sail safe