On a English sailing forum forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/mobo-drivers-are-not-always-right.458242/ at the moment there is mixed opinion on whether the yachts or the power boat were doing the wrong thing

My personal opinion is that if i was on the yachts i would be motoring up the channel until i found some open water to sail in whereas a lot of the English forum members believe that the tacking up the channel is perfectly acceptable and that the power boat was doing the wrong thing

Thoughts ?

Regards Don

It is the Col Regs so no right or wrong but obligations.
Sail boat fails to comply with Rule 2 and 9 in particular
Power boat fails to comply with Rule 6
So if there had been a collision both are at fault.

The sailing vessels had full right of way on a number of counts

1. Power gives way to sail (regardless of the sailing vessel having an engine, if the engine is switched off then it's a sailing vessel)

2. The sailing vessels are more than likely constrained by draught

3. The powerboat is overtaking in the clearest form of overtaking, and is required to give way

If two boats were to collide then both are deemed to be at fault, however the power boat should give way to the sailing vessel, if that means hanging back then he should hang back.

For the record: 2 short blasts on the horn signals "I am altering course to port" not "watch out, I'm coming through". This in it's self could have caused a collision.

My two cents (with a little reference from the col regs).

The stink boat coming the other way at the start looks best prepared, fenders out everywhere!

Nothing really wrong except maybe the yacht towing the tender. The power boats were showing some consideration but could probably have been more so. It's obvious the yachts need water and would not have needed to call for it. I was tacking up the river last week and just at a tight spot mate in a large trawler pulled the throttle back to allow me to pass ahead. It just takes some consideration and manners from both parties.

First time poster, long time lurker. Thanks to all for their words of wisdom in this forum.

This is a great little exercise that makes you think without hitting anything important. More please.

My 2 cents worth. Rule 13 over rides other consideration. The overtaking power boat MUST keep out of the way.

The power boat skipper was a bit of a twit, if he'd followed the sail boat and overtaken as the yacht tacked away from him, he'd have had twice the time for the manoeuvre.

On a practical note, it is perfectly acceptable to tack up a channel and here it seems to be custom. In addition, the sailing boat may have lost its engine, not have an engine or be racing. If conditions were poor, switching to engine might be prudent.

We have to go with the rules, motor gives way to sail.

Except polteness and reasonableness could prevail. If there's a power boat coming up from behind we nearly always wait till he's passed then tack.

As a power boat owner, I should probably leave this one alone. But I think Ramona has hit the nail on the head... It is called Consideration......

I am all too often upset by an apparent arrogance by some yachties. Yachts may be the stand on vessel (not right of way. It doesn't exist) over power, but you can not force a dangerous situation. And I don't care if you're racing or not.

In this particular video, I felt the power boat could of done it a little better. If he could've waited until the next tack and gone the other way around. That said, I think he was being patient and considerate and in no was was being a "twit". I also feel that in a channel that narrow and busy, the yachts -although in their rights- showed poor seamanship by being under sail (they were all doing it. I don't see this being an engine problem).

Bristolfashion, welcome to the forum. My quote from yourself above is not to be taken personally. This is generally a very friendly forum.

I believe this is a chart of the channel in question (copied from another forum)

Looking at the amount of moorings there i am glad i sail in Tassie not in that part of England

Regards Don

Sea-lawyers are a dangerous breed. Particularly dangerous at the helm. The word consideration is not in their vocabulary.
Well, consider this:

"I know nothing of the law, except that whenever a plain man comes into contact with it, he is likely to suffer extremely in his purse and spirit, hoever sound his cause" (P.O.)


Regardless of rights and wrongs, l find it perfecly acceptable to tack up or down on any chanel if good seamanship is followed to the hilt. Dragging a tender behind any boat at any time for any time is not good seamanship imo.

Yeah....rule 1...power gives way to sail.

The yachts had limited options. ...simply powering your way tho isn't a sensible or safe option among several sailboats in a narrow channel ( why are we even discussing this?)

Motor craft should have waited

Lucky no one was hurt or killed due to impatience

Lots of rules and common sense at play here.

Motor gives way to sail but the channel was narrow and the sailing vessel wasn't keeping to the right of the channel. Tacking up channel may be ok but only if he can obey the rules in doing so.

The power boat didn't use the correct signal but his intention to overtake was clear. (Part B Rule 9. e.). The yacht didn't respect his signal.

The sailing vessel couldn't hold course and speed in tacking up channel so there is a question there as to their ability to stand on when needed to do so.

The power vessel was trying to do the right thing and did avoid a collision.

Common sense.The power boat looks like it could have gone between moored yachts to get around the sailing vessel. The sailing vessel could have a had a lookout to the stern to help adjust speed and tack points to allow other boats to pass. The yacht could have motored up the channel because tacking up the channel was really pissing other people off.

However, no collisions nor overly foul language so it seems all were happy.

I reckon the yacht was inconsiderate in tacking up a narrow channel that impeded others.

Guess there are lot of people that have not read the Col Regs.
BTW they have been incorporated by Regulation into the "LAW" of every Australian State and Territory and the breach of them can constitute a criminal offence particularly where there is personal injury.
So you might want to check your insurances policies and the exclusion about offences.
Iif you think power gives way to sail and that is the end of it you might want to revisit that one.
You might want to look at local rules as well.
By way a example Moreton Bay has quite a few that reverse the regular order..

Usually no one has read Rule 2(a).

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sirgallivant said..
Sea-lawyers are a dangerous breed. Particularly dangerous at the helm. The word consideration is not in their vocabulary.
Well, consider this:



Regardless of rights and wrongs, l find it perfecly acceptable to tack up or down on any chanel if good seamanship is followed to the hilt. Dragging a tender behind any boat at any time for any time is not good seamanship imo.

Sirgallivant, I certainly agree with you. But here is the problem as I see it.

Unlike driving where you 'giveaway' to the right regardless of size, weight, truck, bus car or a willys jeep, marine traffic separation has variables. Once you have variables mixed with human interpretation, you have difference of opinions and or understandings. So you didn't like the word 'consideration' before because it has no founding in law. I will agree if that's your meaning. But I believe 'seamanship' is not quantifiable either (nor is common sense).

So where do you go? One of the first posters on this thread assumably armed with a copy of the ColRegs determined the yacht was in contravention of two rules to the powerboats one. So who's right and who's wrong (the purpose Donk has asked this question, and for all of us to discuss and hopefully learn)?

EDIT: I went to have another look at the thread whilst typing here and noticed a few extra comments -I type slow
I don't believe the power boat "powered it's way through". He only did so to avoid a collision. Until that point he was being patient and considerate (and from all accounts from the audio remained that way). He has every right to overtake and enjoy his day on the river too.
Morningbirds suggestion of going through the moorings is an option, but I don't think an overly fair one. Why should he? I don't like manoeuvring through moorings.

Like I said. I think it could've been done better by the powerboat skipper, but I thought the yacht showed poor seamanship.

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lydia said..
Guess there are lot of people that have not read the Col Regs.
BTW they have been incorporated by Regulation into the "LAW" of every Australian State and Territory and the breach of them can constitute a criminal offence particularly where there is personal injury.
So you might want to check your insurances policies and the exclusion about offences.
Iif you think power gives way to sail and that is the end of it you might want to revisit that one.
You might want to look at local rules as well.
By way a example Moreton Bay has quite a few that reverse the regular order..

lydia is right. I apologise if that aspect of my post mislead anyone.

I amended my post in drafting it and mistakenly removed the section where I pointed out that motor giving way to sail is NOT all pervasive.

E.g. A vessel overtaking gives way whether it is a motor or sail vessel, a sailing vessel gives way to a vessel not under command or restricted in ability to maneouvre.

If Don's right with the chart, do you really want to tack all of the way up the channel anyhow?
I doubt anyone would purposely look to 'race'' in such a narrow channel either.

It might be the norm at that location to tack up the channel, but I'm with Ramona, towing the dingy is a bit rough.
At least shorten up on the painter a little?

just my 2c worth
I would assume ,incorrectly or not, that with that many moorings in the navigation channel, there would be a 4 knot limit. if there isn't then maybe there should be ! and it isn't a crash hot idea to overtake in a narrow channel anyway unless waved by the vessel in front of you ,,,deal with this on a daily basis along with a spattering of tinnies fishing in the nav channel ,ocean kayaks ,paddle skis,clubbie boats,stand-up paddle boards and errant dog owners throwing sticks for water loving rovers into the middle of the nav channel
Regardless of whether you are powered or under sail. if you are the overtaking vessel you have to give the vessel you are overtaking
sufficient space ...
My understanding is that if you t-bone someone from behind regardless of what they are doing ..unless they are in reverse ....without signaling
then you are in a spot of bother ... !

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lydia said..
Guess there are lot of people that have not read the Col Regs.
BTW they have been incorporated by Regulation into the "LAW" of every Australian State and Territory and the breach of them can constitute a criminal offence particularly where there is personal injury.
So you might want to check your insurances policies and the exclusion about offences.
Iif you think power gives way to sail and that is the end of it you might want to revisit that one.
You might want to look at local rules as well.
By way a example Moreton Bay has quite a few that reverse the regular order..

I just checked NSW RMS rules 2016 it says very clearly on page one "power gives way to sail".

I quote:

Giving way The master must continuously assess the risk of collision with other vessels. Power vessels must give way to:Sailing vessels

www.rms.nsw.gov.au/maritime/safety-rules/rules-regulations/know-the-rules.html

I know of at least one collision where the power boat owner was required to pay damages to a sail boat it hit on Sydney harbour and that was the rule applied.

The NSW RMS rules 2016 note:

"In a collision, all masters involved can be held responsible even if the give-way vessel does not give way, because all masters are required to exercise caution and take avoiding action if the other vessel does not."

Negligence is a different matter all together of course.

If NSW RMS rules are misleading in some way please explain, and what is section 2a!?

Spend many years on European river, mostly cargo 800 tons.
1/ rule local customs 2/ common sense 3/ all in default
what about hehind the wheel through Rome, what rule apply there

i love sailing up our narrow creek here in Sandgate but very rarely have trouble with the fishing fleet or larger motor boats but kayaks and tinnies are another story as they very rarely follow the rules so i normally stick to the assumption that know one knows and i keep clear less accidents that way

The video is of a sailing scene in Britain and the participants are probably all British. Just like driving on their roads the British are particularly well mannered and I can not see any real problem there. If that was here it would quickly turn into a **fight!

It looks as if everyone did fairly well, in that British way. That spot is several miles from open water, so if the sailors were only going to sail on open water they would have a lot of motoring to do every time they went out. Sure, the powerboat could have judged things a bit better and the yachties could have paid more heed to the powerboat or just given the skipper a wave to let them know what was happening, but everything was imcomparably better than in Sydney!

It's apparently an area where sailing is very common. At the start of the vid the boats seem to be off Itchenor Sailing Club, which has fleets of dinghies, two classes of skiff types, two classes of one-design yachts, and cruiser/racers - there'd be even less room if the racing fleet was beating to the finish, but the club has been around there for a lot longer than the powerboats or the moored yachts. The space is so congested ashore and afloat that the International 14's beam measurement is allegedly designed around the width of Itchenor Sailing Club's driveway.

If I may have a (sort of related) rant, the Brits have a different (and fantastic) attitude towards their sailing waters. Basically if you leave a damp sponge around, a bunch of Brits will come along and build a sailing club on it. This is Croydon Lake in London - it measures just five acres, includes an island and restricted areas that are just for fishing, and yet they fit two sailing clubs onto it! This pic was taken at one end of the lake - the train in the left background is at the other end, and that's the Lake's longest dimension. It's a place where a Laser is considered too big. It's interesting to watch them sail Comets, which are sort of like a Laser but with more rounded hull sections. In that light and fluky stuff with very short tacks, the hull shape really works well.



This is Brigham sailing club - and that's not the narrow section of the canal.



Cam Sailing Club (above) has a trailer-sailer fleet that manages to fit on the river. At Chester (which sails on a river that is probably a bit wider than at Cam) the club's dinghy storage area is half as wide as the river. It's the only place I've sailed where cows that walk onto the race course are accepted as being an obstacle under the racing rules. I have sailed at a club in Africa where they had problems with a rogue hippo in the dinghy storage area, though.

So to bring it back on topic, the Brits seem to make a point of making sure they give and take and seem to rub along pretty well together, and perhaps as part of that, they seem to normally have slower boats than we do.

All of these seemingly watertight rules leak like a sieve in practice. Cockcrofts "A Guide To The Collision Rules" is fascinating reading. I was T-boned in the sandy straits by a power boat while under sail - his fault, but I was held partly at fault under rule 17 (b). I started my engines and attempted to avoid him, but couldn't get sufficient way on in time. So more arguments - what if as a stand on vessel your attempt to avoid imminent collision is not successful?

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Chris 249 said..
It looks as if everyone did fairly well, in that British way. That spot is several miles from open water, so if the sailors were only going to sail on open water they would have a lot of motoring to do every time they went out. Sure, the powerboat could have judged things a bit better and the yachties could have paid more heed to the powerboat or just given the skipper a wave to let them know what was happening, but everything was imcomparably better than in Sydney!

It's apparently an area where sailing is very common. At the start of the vid the boats seem to be off Itchenor Sailing Club, which has fleets of dinghies, two classes of skiff types, two classes of one-design yachts, and cruiser/racers - there'd be even less room if the racing fleet was beating to the finish, but the club has been around there for a lot longer than the powerboats or the moored yachts. The space is so congested ashore and afloat that the International 14's beam measurement is allegedly designed around the width of Itchenor Sailing Club's driveway.

If I may have a (sort of related) rant, the Brits have a different (and fantastic) attitude towards their sailing waters. Basically if you leave a damp sponge around, a bunch of Brits will come along and build a sailing club on it. This is Croydon Lake in London - it measures just five acres, includes an island and restricted areas that are just for fishing, and yet they fit two sailing clubs onto it! This pic was taken at one end of the lake - the train in the left background is at the other end, and that's the Lake's longest dimension. It's a place where a Laser is considered too big. It's interesting to watch them sail Comets, which are sort of like a Laser but with more rounded hull sections. In that light and fluky stuff with very short tacks, the hull shape really works well.



This is Brigham sailing club - and that's not the narrow section of the canal.



Cam Sailing Club (above) has a trailer-sailer fleet that manages to fit on the river. At Chester (which sails on a river that is probably a bit wider than at Cam) the club's dinghy storage area is half as wide as the river. It's the only place I've sailed where cows that walk onto the race course are accepted as being an obstacle under the racing rules. I have sailed at a club in Africa where they had problems with a rogue hippo in the dinghy storage area, though.

So to bring it back on topic, the Brits seem to make a point of making sure they give and take and seem to rub along pretty well together, and perhaps as part of that, they seem to normally have slower boats than we do.

Looks like some of the canals in Holland. You just power off and drift through the fleet knowing that the Dutch all know how to sail a boat and water rage does not exist.

The RMS summary oversimplifies things.
For instance, special rules or vessels restricted in the ability to manoeuvre

Rule 2(A) deals with the ordinary practice of seamen.

And turning straight in front a power boat without signalling an intention is probarly not the ordinary practice of seamen.
Of course the flip side for the power boat is travelling at a safe speed.

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lydia said..
The RMS summary oversimplifies things.
For instance special rules or vessels constrained by draught.

Yes and this is the problem... The RST handbook you get from the DoT here in Western Australia says the same thing. so now there will be a majority of people in yachts and power boats that think power gives way to sail period.... And I think that that is what breeds much of the attitude I referred to previously.

I should say each Australian state has slightly different rules as well although most pick up the international convention.
For instance NSW has a rule inserted in their Col Regs (Rule 1(a) from memory) about vessels participating in an event under an aquatic permit.

If you are cruising north through Moreton Bay this year you might need to know some the local rules for the Port of Brisbane pilotage area which includes Moreton Bay and up to extends to Caloundra.

All vessels over 300t (so even a superyacht for instance and car ferries) are deemed to constrained by their draft (whether in deep water not) and so jump up the list.

The Stradbroke ferries are deemed to be carrying explosives. (and display appropriate signals)

The City Cats are deemed to be hovercraft. (hence the all round yellow flashing light)

You can work out the effects for yourselves.

And the Port of Brisbane are not backwards on the VHF and suggesting you attend Pinkenba for a chat.

You should call the port control on VHF for permission to pass through the port area as they will say no at times.

A visit from the security boat usually follows.

While are on the topic of Col Regs and courtesy it is interesting to see the different attitudes of people with hailing vessels on VHF and expressing your intentions.

In the approaches to Moreton Bay and the Port of Brisbane and most likely due to the narrow channels the masters of the commercial vessels are very happy to hailed and be told what your intentions are.
Even in yacht races the Sailing instructions carry the requirement.

A few months ago I came into Sydney on a busy day and I hailed an outgoing commercial vessel well inside the heads and told the pilot I would turn to starboard wait for him to pass ahead.
I could hear the surprise in his voice!

No offence taken at all - these are great little exercises to promote lively discussion and make us have a rethink about those pesky Colregs.

I've no axe to grind either way - sail or power - but if I'd been in the power boat I would have made the overtake as the yacht tacked away from me, rather than waiting until it was very obvious that the yacht either had to tack back or hit something. What ever you feel about whether the yacht should be under sail or power, it is very obvious what it is doing and the power boat is the over taking vessel.