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dialdan said..
I see some people sailing catamarans downwind with just the headsail , I shudder to think what will happen if one of the crew goes over the side . Absolutely no chance to sail back to them with just the main.

Al

Good point. It's fun to have lots of sail out running down wind in a strong breeze but if you have to turn back quickly to fetch a rugrat who has been pushed over the side by a sibling you have added to considerably to your workload and risks. I sail short handed (of experienced sailors but often with passengers onboard) most of the time so I usually set my sail plan for sailing into the wind. I don't run a spinnaker for this reason, if one of the usually two POB goes over a spinnaker is the last thing I want up.
Obviously racing is a different game and more risks are taken, hopefully considered risks.

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samsturdy said..

OK got that Steve. Sounds like you played around a bit too when you were learning.
Good fun, but if I don't understand what's going on I don't mind showing my ignorance.
as someone said a while ago....it's NOT asking the questions that's foolish.
At the end of the day, I just want to be able to sail competently without scaring the Missus.

its just a matter of going out alot Sam. If shes cool with you learning, and getting the hang of it with her onboard, then great. Otherwise get out there as much as possible alone. When i started - also in the pittwater (was moored church point) i had no clue. id never used a jib as my hobie only had a main. I had a bit of a knockdown near west head. did 1 lesson and really learned alot. 1 of the things was - if your pointing into the wind, youre depowered, the rigging can flutter away and make a racket etc, but youll be ok when rasing and lowering the main. Another learning tool for me has been racing with much older experienced sailors. everytime i go out on a race i learn something and i apply it the next time i go out on my boat. I think if you can get out there as much as you can, youll learn heaps. when you start to get more confident - then go out in more wind. Get your reefs sorted. I have a hook on the boom for quick reef setting up. For me, with anything im all about the crawl before you can walk thing. Now im setting bigger challenges which teach me yet even more. I do think you should start out your days sail with getting to a good spot to put the main up first. make sure you are not going to get blown onto shore if something goes wrong. be aware of wind direction. get the main up asap. In face, everything should be done (IMO) quick. Cause i do everything alone mostly, i have to be fast. Once the mains up cruise for a bit. go off the wind a bit get some momentum. get a feel for the weather, wind, sea, and the situation. Then start unfurling your jib. With my new boat i have to be careful not to have too little jib out for my main. If i do use a smaller jib and the whole main, then im pretty unbalanced. Dunno what your doing friday but im going to be up that way Friday and would love to come out for a burn if youre going. Dont think the weathers that crash hot this week though!

sector !! that paragraph was to big , it frightened me !!!

One has a slight suspicion, that despite your worthy advice and explanations it is impossible to teach someone to run as long as he does not have an idea how to walk.
One, who admittedly has no idea what 'weather helm' is, is going to be hard pressed to fathom COE and CLR.
The best and soundes advice one could give, know your boat, go back to basics!
Please.

Why don't you let Capt. John help you out...,

All sage advice fellas. I think if I was totally unsure of what I am doing then I would do things differently.
Remember,I am a Master Class 4 so I am not new to boats.....only to sailing. In my river boat career
I obviously had to face some odd and potentially dangerous situations and resolve them quickly.
You don't get much time to act on a river 'cos there's a bank alongside and another one just over
there.
So the prospect of learning/trying something new on the water has an appeal to me. As I have said
before, boat handling and safety are inherent, it's the new 'medium' that I'm learning. And that's where
you blokes are needed.
I can do things the hard way or I can ask questions and try the answers.....much appreciated.
I am however very impressed with the attitude of the forum and if the rest of the world was like you folk
there would be no strife as we see today. God bless you all.

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SandS said..


sector !! that paragraph was to big , it frightened me !!!

haha, sorry!!

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samsturdy said..

OK got that Steve. Sounds like you played around a bit too when you were learning.
Good fun, but if I don't understand what's going on I don't mind showing my ignorance.
as someone said a while ago....it's NOT asking the questions that's foolish.
At the end of the day, I just want to be able to sail competently without scaring the Missus.

Hi Sam

If you are concerned about your wife being scared what you could do is that you and your wife and one of the experienced sailors on here take the boat out on a day when it is blowing 30 knots plus and let your wife see how the boat reacts to gusts and how capable the boat is in a strong breeze

Hopefully with someone experienced on board she will be confident that all is ok even when the boat is heeling excessively and when it is just the both of you she will not be scared if you end up in the same conditions

Regards Don

OK, so back to Samsturdy's original question "what did I do wrong"

I see the score like this, working throught Samsturdy's post one point at a time.

1. Took the missus for a sail. Plenty of the experts on the forum sail by themselves, the misus won't come along, highly likely scared by all that expertly controlled heeling. score +1

2. Put the main only up, at the suggestion of the forum. At this point Sam is no different to any of us that put the main up before the jib. Score +1

3. Got into trouble with a lee shore. I mark this as -1. Much better to make certain that there is space available before putting up the sails, Sam should have headed out on the other tack after hoisting the main. If this was done there may well have been space to sort the boat, learn a bit and not needed to entertain us all with the question!

4.Stayed calm, thought through the problem and came up with a solution, pull out some jib. Score +1.

5. Communicated with the crew, told the missus what he was going to do. Score +1

6. pulled out some jib, sailed away happy. Score +1

So so I make the score for the day +4out of 6, so not to bad a day. I wish all my sailing days had so few mistakes. Keep up the good work, but give yourself a bit more space before putting the sails up.

PS. Sam, I love your self deprecating style, I suspect that you know more than you let on!

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LMY said..
OK, so back to Samsturdy's original question "what did I do wrong"

I see the score like this, working throught Samsturdy's post one point at a time.

1. Took the missus for a sail. Plenty of the experts on the forum sail by themselves, the misus won't come along, highly likely scared by all that expertly controlled heeling. score +1

2. Put the main only up, at the suggestion of the forum. At this point Sam is no different to any of us that put the main up before the jib. Score +1

3. Got into trouble with a lee shore. I mark this as -1. Much better to make certain that there is space available before putting up the sails, Sam should have headed out on the other tack after hoisting the main. If this was done there may well have been space to sort the boat, learn a bit and not needed to entertain us all with the question!

4.Stayed calm, thought through the problem and came up with a solution, pull out some jib. Score +1.

5. Communicated with the crew, told the missus what he was going to do. Score +1

6. pulled out some jib, sailed away happy. Score +1

So so I make the score for the day +4out of 6, so not to bad a day. I wish all my sailing days had so few mistakes. Keep up the good work, but give yourself a bit more space before putting the sails up.

PS. Sam, I love your self deprecating style, I suspect that you know more than you let on!

+1

Hi Sam,
I took a couple of clients out today, you could say the conditions were not ideal, 22-30 knots, short sharp seas. I got them settled in the cockpit, then got the main up, put a reef in, then looked in despair at the foredeck, then back at my "crew". The headsail was all nicely furled , it was seconds work to unfurl it, but the instruments were steady on 25knots, a good 5 knots more than is comfortable for that sail (50m2)
I should have skull dragged the staysail up from below deck, hanked it onto the babystay and charged off over the horizon.
I looked out over an angry sea of whitecaps, looked back to see two rather large pair of eyes looking a bit worried, and went for discretion over valour, and off we went under main only.


First impressions: Angles. My close hauled angle was as per normal, approx 45 deg true. This was mainly due to the wind strength, in lighter winds under main only I have found 50 deg to be the best I can manage.
Sail trim:
The traveller was down as far as it could go.
The main sheet was out a fair bit, the boom was out over the rear quarter and higher than normal.
The main showed a hint of luffing, but my leach tell tails were streaming straight back, perfect .
Speed: 7 knots , down from the usual 9 knots I can do with a headsail up in those conditions.
Helm: slight bias to leeward. If you imagine the keel and mast as the pivot point, I had all the power behind the mast, hence driving the bow up into the wind. So while it feels a bit weird, it was ok. Not good, but ok.


Observation: without a headsail up, I needed to ease the main out a lot more than normal to keep flow over the sail. It is much more important to keep flow over the leeward side of the sail than the windward side, and the headsail helps " glue" the flow over the back of the mainsail. Without a headsail and with the main sheeted in to its normal position for close hauled, the flow was separating off the leeward side of the main, causing a loss of lift (drive) and increasing drag.
Without a headsail, easing the mainsail down helped reattach the flow over the leeward side of the sail.

i thought you might be interested to see what other boats experience!
SB

I tell you what !!. You blokes are priceless. LMY....loved that analysis, especially as it was in my favour but
I guess it's no more than I would expect from you mob. That's what's so special about this forum.
Shaggy, you and MB are of the same mind, I should have eased the mainsail and not expected to have been
able to sail so close to the wind. I think that was my initial mistake ( through inexperience ) I expected the
boat to sail closer to the wind. It was my observations regarding Scotland Island that made me realise I was
going sideways, but I know better now.
Shaggy.....Missus and I sail for FUN. there is no way we're going out in 30 knots of wind thank you very much
I want to keep the Missus on side, not over the side. So we'll stick to the more pleasant weather and leave
the stormy gale heaving seas to you. Thanks mate.

Hi Sam,
Sailing in 30 knots is fun! ( just kidding mate)

One clarification: regardless of the wind strength the same rules still apply.In lighter winds , sailing close to the wind is even harder, in say 8 knots I could be down to 60 deg TWA without a headsail.

So your angle to wind and the boom position will both change without a headsail compared to with, as the others have suggested (in a lot less words than me :) )

I admire your openness, we all learn from each other.
Cheers,
SB

I have sailed all my life at all levels and I am still learning. That's the great thing about this sport. The other great thing about this sport is you can do it from a young age up until they cast your ashes to the sea.

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samsturdy said..

I tell you what !!. You blokes are priceless. LMY....loved that analysis, especially as it was in my favour but
I guess it's no more than I would expect from you mob. That's what's so special about this forum.
Shaggy, you and MB are of the same mind, I should have eased the mainsail and not expected to have been
able to sail so close to the wind. I think that was my initial mistake ( through inexperience ) I expected the
boat to sail closer to the wind. It was my observations regarding Scotland Island that made me realise I was
going sideways, but I know better now.
Shaggy.....Missus and I sail for FUN. there is no way we're going out in 30 knots of wind thank you very much
I want to keep the Missus on side, not over the side. So we'll stick to the more pleasant weather and leave
the stormy gale heaving seas to you. Thanks mate.

Hi Sam

Not sure how predictable the weather is where you sail but down here changes happen quickly and the wind is often quite a bit more than the forecast

I think that it would be better that you and your wife experience what the boat does in strong winds and you practice reefing the main when it is blowing with a experienced person on board rather than be out by yourselves one day and have a change come through and give your wife a scare

Regards Don

Right Donk.......We sail in enclosed waters (Pittwater) all I have to do if the wind gets too strong
is let the sails go start the engine and motor back to the mooring.
Having said that....we have stuck it out when the wind has come up, probably close to 30 knots,
but there's no huge swell to go with it and we would have been on headsail only so really it was
exciting but manageable.
We have no intention just yet of heading off to North Island New Zealand.
As for unpredictability, that applies to the wind direction in Pittwater, it seems it can blow from
any which way at times as MB will attest, but that adds another dimension to the days sail.