Hi
I am new to sailing but gaining experience.
I am looking at purchasing a trailer sailer for weekend and maybe a little longer sometimes for my wife and myself to go to places like rotto and garden island.
I see these yachts are getting old now so can someone make any recomendations for suitable yachts.
I am a little confused with the pros and cons of keel types as well.
Cheers

Firstly there is a website called trailersailerplace that can give you any advice you need for trailer sailers and I have no knowledge of where you wish to sail.
Trailer sailers are no older than keel boats and new /newer ones are available for a price. Generally an equivalent trailer sailer to a keel boat is more expensive as you are also buying a trailer.
From my perspectives;
Keel Boat advantages
1. generally stiffer (ballast/displacement ratio higher) .generally safer offshore.
2. more room below as no need for keel box and width not restricted by
allowable width or length to road albiet there are ts where the keel does not intrude into the cabin such as a Beneteau First.
3 . if in pen walk on and off you go.

Trailer Sailer advantages.
1.Provided your car can.
Store at home for free and work on in backyard.or store at yacht club on hardstand .For either no antifoul needed and Osmosis not a criteria when looking at a boat. A lot are stored undercover in sheds and even if old can be ' as new' .
2. Ability to road to sailing ground ie . Go to Whitsundays without having to sail there and back. Boat can be used as caravan on road if big enough.
3. No fees for pen or mooring although there is rego. and maintenance for trailer.
4. Can sail right up to beach .
Disadvantages. Others with more knowledge can advise.

Spacesailer 20, either a fixed or swing keel model depending on your needs. Very good boats and handle the Freo doctor easily and safely.
They have a Pop Top Cabin giving full head room and sleep 4.
Small enough to tow and handle single handed. Build and designed by Swarbricks so all round good product.
the only issue is Rottnest and all the boat boguns.....
best of luck

Hey mate. I reckon the Spacesailor 20 would be a fantastic boat. A guy over here in Queensland on YouTube has posted a couple of trips up the Queensland east coast in one. Brisbane to Whitsundays. If you are considering these boats, they are an interesting watch.
Here is the first he did about 6 years ago

Suggest you wander down to Nedlands Yacht Club, they have a good range of trailersailors, both fixed keel, drop keel and swing keel yachts. In summer they race on a sunday, so there are always people are around on that day.

Yachts you could check out in WA include Spacesailor, 18, 20 and 22, Red Witches, Red Jacket, Red Eagle, Farr 5000 & 7500, Macgregor 26 andSorcerer 21. You will also sometimes find eastern States designed yachts for sale in WA.

Trips to Rottnest can get a bit rough for some of these yachts, however if you pick your weather you would be ok. I have sailed a Red Jacket, Red Witch, Space Sailer 22 and Farr 7500 to Both Garden Island and Rottnest.

Note that with most of these yachts you would need to drop the mast to get under the Fremantle Bridge. Exceptions are Red Jacket, Red Witch and Red Eagle.

If you are new would suggest getting something for the Swan River first and gain experience before venturing offshore.

Good luck, Ilenart

So you haven't set your heart any anything in particular except for it being a trailer sailer... That's awesome because you can answer (not necessarily to us publicly) these two questions. Do you intend to leave the boat at a clubs hardstand or tow it home? If towing do you have a suitable tow vehicle or what it the maximum towing weight you can tow?

You have probably now narrowed your selection down some what.

Windrush Wildfire.
beldon.australialisted.com/6027/boats-yachts-parts/windrush-wildfire-trailer-sailer_18447769.html

johncrawfordmarine.com.au/wildfire/456-wildfire-brochure/file

Thanks all for the valuable information.
I will pop down to nedlands yacht club and take a look.

Would someone mind explaining the practical differences with the different keels.
I definitely want to get close to beaches if possible so i am guessing a fixed keel is not for me but the fact that fixed keels exist then they muat have advantages

Hi Mate, I live in Perth and have a red jacket trailersailer which I've taken to garden island many times in as much as 30knot winds, most of the red jackets, red eagles, red witches, etc have a concrete fixed keel, but you can sail into water no more than waist deep.

Question on practicality of Different keels:

You can get retractable keels, these are keels that mechanically move up and down, this means easier to launch or go into shallow water, but also more moving parts and easier to break off a keel, and once the keel breaks off the yacht is most stable upside down, unfortunately a few Perth sailors lost their lives last year when their keel came off offshore at night, and they had a bolt on keel.

There are also water ballast keels, in this case the yacht is much lighter so if you need to motor along you can get the yacht up on a plane which isn't possible in other yachts (www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/collie/sail-boats/trailer-sailer/1218701026 is a good example of one of these, and you can motor at supposedly 20knots+) , the water ballast sucks in sea water to give it bottom weight and stabilise itself, this creates a flat bottom yacht which is good for beaching, risks here are that some put a tank on each side of the yacht (see www.sailboat-cruising.com/water-ballast-system.html) and for novice sailors if you accidentally tack or jibe you risk flipping.

The there are fixed keels, more stability and less risk of things going wrong, but less flexibility, if you are looking at yachts with concrete keels like the red witches, make sure that the rio bar inside the concrete has not rusted and expanded causing the concrete to shatter.

Last options is no keel at all, you can look at multi hulls, tend to be faster, but they are most stable upside down, then again the saying is a keel boat is most stable on the bottom of the ocean, they are a lot more pricey if you want something with decent cabin room.

I'm sure other sailors on here with more experience than myself will have their own thoughts on practicalities,

My two cents is its like buying your first car, get something small and nimble that you don't mind putting a few dents in and is cheap/ easy to repair, then move into something a little larger for your nights away.

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robdog101 said..
Would someone mind explaining the practical differences with the different keels.
I definitely want to get close to beaches if possible so i am guessing a fixed keel is not for me but the fact that fixed keels exist then they muat have advantages

Mate, What a minefield or is it a Dorothy DIxer

Trailer Sailers come mainly with three types of keel.
Drop Keel. Usually cast iron or lead fin and representing the ballast . A winch ,electric or manual , is used to raise into a box in the cabin.
Swing Keel. Usually cast iron or lead that swings on a stainless steel bolt arrangement and swings up into a low keel box in the cabin by use of a winch.
Daggerboard . Lightweight keel with the ballast in the hull OR a lead bulb on the bottom.
Most of the older ts have some form of buoyancy by way of foam pumped into certain areas.
Personally I would steer away from cast iron or get close inspection of such.
Some prefer drop over swing as less can go wrong ie. no swing bolt. Others prefer swing as less intrusive in cabin and if you go aground
less likelihood of damage.
Your question about fixed keels indicates you have a lot of reading to do . Good Luck

The Wildfire was pretty much designed and built for weekend trips to Rotto. Pull the dagger board out and park it on the beach.

I believe there is an old guy who single hands his Wildfire out to Rotto nearly every weekend.

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Bananabender said..

robdog101 said..
Would someone mind explaining the practical differences with the different keels.
I definitely want to get close to beaches if possible so i am guessing a fixed keel is not for me but the fact that fixed keels exist then they muat have advantages

Mate, What a minefield or is it a Dorothy DIxer

Trailer Sailers come mainly with three types of keel.
Drop Keel. Usually cast iron or lead fin and representing the ballast . A winch ,electric or manual , is used to raise into a box in the cabin.
Swing Keel. Usually cast iron or lead that swings on a stainless steel bolt arrangement and swings up into a low keel box in the cabin by use of a winch.
Daggerboard . Lightweight keel with the ballast in the hull OR a lead bulb on the bottom.
Most of the older ts have some form of buoyancy by way of foam pumped into certain areas.
Personally I would steer away from cast iron or get close inspection of such.
Some prefer drop over swing as less can go wrong ie. no swing bolt. Others prefer swing as less intrusive in cabin and if you go aground
less likelihood of damage.
Your question about fixed keels indicates you have a lot of reading to do . Good Luck

Thanks for the info.
As i said i am nee to sailing and yes have a lot to learn.
This part of the process.

If it were me (l have a TS) l would go for a noelex 25 if the budget permits. Handle breeze. Great performance and accomodation. Good resale and the mast is easy to lower.

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Bananabender said..

robdog101 said..
Would someone mind explaining the practical differences with the different keels.
I definitely want to get close to beaches if possible so i am guessing a fixed keel is not for me but the fact that fixed keels exist then they muat have advantages

Mate, What a minefield or is it a Dorothy DIxer

Trailer Sailers come mainly with three types of keel.
Drop Keel. Usually cast iron or lead fin and representing the ballast . A winch ,electric or manual , is used to raise into a box in the cabin.
Swing Keel. Usually cast iron or lead that swings on a stainless steel bolt arrangement and swings up into a low keel box in the cabin by use of a winch.
Daggerboard . Lightweight keel with the ballast in the hull OR a lead bulb on the bottom.
Most of the older ts have some form of buoyancy by way of foam pumped into certain areas.
Personally I would steer away from cast iron or get close inspection of such.
Some prefer drop over swing as less can go wrong ie. no swing bolt. Others prefer swing as less intrusive in cabin and if you go aground
less likelihood of damage.
Your question about fixed keels indicates you have a lot of reading to do . Good Luck

There is a further option. Boats like the Investigator 563 have a lead internal ballast in a long keel, and a simple, lightweight centreboard to improve windward performance. The Sunmaid 20 is another example. I like this solution as they sail like a yacht, and have equivalent safety.

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Yara said..

Bananabender said..

robdog101 said..
Would someone mind explaining the practical differences with the different keels.
I definitely want to get close to beaches if possible so i am guessing a fixed keel is not for me but the fact that fixed keels exist then they muat have advantages

Mate, What a minefield or is it a Dorothy DIxer

Trailer Sailers come mainly with three types of keel.
Drop Keel. Usually cast iron or lead fin and representing the ballast . A winch ,electric or manual , is used to raise into a box in the cabin.
Swing Keel. Usually cast iron or lead that swings on a stainless steel bolt arrangement and swings up into a low keel box in the cabin by use of a winch.
Daggerboard . Lightweight keel with the ballast in the hull OR a lead bulb on the bottom.
Most of the older ts have some form of buoyancy by way of foam pumped into certain areas.
Personally I would steer away from cast iron or get close inspection of such.
Some prefer drop over swing as less can go wrong ie. no swing bolt. Others prefer swing as less intrusive in cabin and if you go aground
less likelihood of damage.
Your question about fixed keels indicates you have a lot of reading to do . Good Luck

There is a further option. Boats like the Investigator 563 have a lead internal ballast in a long keel, and a simple, lightweight centreboard to improve windward performance. The Sunmaid 20 is another example. I like this solution as they sail like a yacht, and have equivalent safety.

Lifted off trailersailerplace hope poster does not mind.
Good lesson for using paper charts as safety check as well.
"Last week I sailed my Sunmaid 20 from Safety Bay to Mandurah in Western Australia 13nm as the crow flies.
My trip down there had me 3nm offshore in 10kts with a 1m following sea. Slightly rolly sailing dead down wind wing on wing with the main and jib averaging 3-4 kts and quite pleasant and using navionics to navigate. All was well until I got just off Mandurah where there was bresking waves across the entrance to the harbour. I stopped 500m out and dropped both sails and motored in but suddenly found myself on top of a 7ft breaking wave! The boat turned sideways and fortunately the keel was down acting as a brake and i feel off the back of the wave.Keeping full power on I motored to where I saw bit looking slightly calmer and headed into the harbour. Theres a mooring field with courtesy balls outside the harbour which is where I was planning to spend the night but it had breaking waves and a capsized powerboat on a mooring ball so I soon forgot about that idea. Once inside and anchored out the way I checked navionics again which showed nothing and i dug out the paper charts. The expanded drawing for the harbour entrance showed breaking waves in my track in ( I wont make that mistake again!) The trip back had me tacking 5nm offshore in a 3m swell covering 18nm on the return leg. I found a nice beam reach into the swell on a 45? angle was rather nice and overall the boat handled the conditions much better than I had expected and this was my first time sailing in open ocean. For any newbies out there always check paper charts when plotting your trip from anchorage to anchorage my complacency with navionics is a lesson learned. I also have lost sight of land for about 15minutes due to haze and have installed a magnetic compass on the boat this week."

The aforementioned Spacesailer 20 with the Swing Keel has no intrusion into the cabin as the Keel swings back into a shallow skeg.
The rig is also a shortened version of the fixed keel models which allows for easier passage under the bridges at Fremantle. If your set up nicely lowering such a short mast is never an issue.
Red Witch also a good option but fixed Keel only.
Wildfire is a bit limited for space below but lots of deck space and a nippy performer being a little longer at 23ft.
Its a buyers market really for sure. So many trailersailors sit idle on moorings and in hardstands or in peoples driveways.
Maybe get a ride as crew on some boats at Nedlands YC as a place to start?

Hi there robdog101 ,
I have a spacesaior 18 TS and I live in Rockingham. I keep it in the backyard. I have been to the Sky Show three times with it. I have also been to Rottnest Island three times, some times on the way up to Perth. It has a swing centre board that goes into a skeg that runs under the hull.So it doesn't come into the cabin.The worst thing with a TS is that it is a bit of a production to rig up. So I always go out for at least three days at a time. My mast needs7.2 metres clearance so I can fit under all the bridges up to Perth waters. I also don't like to sail my boat to windward over 20 knots. So if my course is to windward I have to find a place to hide before midday a lot of times in these parts of Australia.

Cool pics LaLancer, love the beach shot!

Hi RobDogq101,
You have to think of your keel as another set of sails.
Just like the sails create lift as the air flows over them, so do keels create lift as water flows over them.

Sails pull you forward but also sideways. resulting in the boat going forward but also sideways in the downwind direction.
Keels pull you forward and also sideways, the boat going forward but this times sideways in the upwind direction.
The net effect, if both are roughly balanced, is you go forward in a straight line, with a wee drift sideways downwind, as the lift from the sails are generally the more powerful than that off the keel.

A fixed keel is often able to generate more lift than a drop or swing keel. That's mainly just because they are normally bigger. A little stubby fixed keel is not necessarily better than a big drop keel, as it all comes down to how efficient the 'sail shape 'of the keel is in balancing the force of the sails for that particular boat.

Fixed keels are also better for racing. When racing you want as much weight as you can get as deep as you can get to offset a bigger more powerful sailplan. A lightweight , or smaller keel means you have to reduce more sail and earlier in the wind range, or the boat will heel too much and go sideways downwind a lot more, as the lift from the keel is insufficient to balance the lift from the sails.

But always think of it the underwater equivalent of your sails.