Hi all

Just wondering what your thoughts are on the Port /Starboard incident this afternoon and whether Wild Oats XI needs to serve a penalty

Regards Don

I don't understand why Wild Oats did not acknowledge their poor judgement and do turns. I wouldn't be messing with Spithill.

What i don't understand is why did Comanche (Blue) not sail roughly the same course (assuming they can point as well) as Black Jack (Yellow) and Wild Oates (Red) did when they made up a heap of time coming out through the Heads as shown on the tracker below

It seems to me if they has done this they would not have lost time to Wild Oates XI

Regards Don

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Donk107 said..
What i don't understand is why did Comanche (Blue) not sail roughly the same course (assuming they can point as well) as Black Jack (Yellow) and Wild Oates (Red) did when they made up a heap of time coming out through the Heads as shown on the tracker below

It seems to me if they has done this they would not have lost time to Wild Oates XI

Regards Don

Tracker issues? Comanche was certainly slower and lower upwind in the light and sticky stuff, but nothing like that much lower. No decent boat would get a tacking angle like that.

I'm guessing it's a long distance race tactic that might not work in your standard round the cans race. E.g., maybe they're banking on Comanche not making the full race, so the protest doesn't matter??

I'll preface this by saying that 30+ years ago I raced beach cats for a couple of years then went windsurfing for more of an adrenalin rush and more freedom. So my knowledge of rules is next to nothing, but
wild oats on port tack needed to give way, they tacked giving way and at the same time coming about put themselves in front of (just by a flys sh#t) and on the same tack as Comanche thus putting themselves into a right of way position. Comanche now in the rear and overtaking must give way. Plauseable from the footage I have been able to see.
If wild oats thought they were in the wrong they cold have done a 720 or gambled that they will eat up any time penalty dished out to them in Hobart.
Comanche flew the protest flag but may not formally lodge when they get to Hobart or may withdraw. Maybe its like an insurance policy or a bet each way. See how things are travelling when coming up the Derwent

Looks to me like Oats perhaps at first thought they'd pass in front but then tried to almost lee bow Comanche with the tack to get out of trouble. Worth the risk, Who knows? Oats were certainly off their game at the start line though!

The tracker plot is way out, just watched a replay, Comanche pretty much follow BJ from 1st Mark after calling water and tack at same time to then lay the 2nd sea mark, Oats went way higher at 1st mark to then have the conflict with Comanche.

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Donk107 said..
What i don't understand is why did Comanche (Blue) not sail roughly the same course (assuming they can point as well) as Black Jack (Yellow) and Wild Oates (Red) did when they made up a heap of time coming out through the Heads as shown on the tracker below

It seems to me if they has done this they would not have lost time to Wild Oates XI

Regards Don

If i didnt know better, I'd say they had forgotten they had to round the outer mark. Maybe they had some issues aboard?

The practical question for the jury room is going to be whether Wild Oats completed its tack before Comanche had to give way. The video footage I've seen suggests this is possible which is why (maybe) WO didn't do its turns. Still that's a high risk gamble.

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FreeRadical said..
Looks to me like Oats perhaps at first thought they'd pass in front but then tried to almost lee bow Comanche with the tack to get out of trouble. Worth the risk, Who knows? Oats were certainly off their game at the start line though!

The tracker plot is way out, just watched a replay, Comanche pretty much follow BJ from 1st Mark after calling water and tack at same time to then lay the 2nd sea mark, Oats went way higher at 1st mark to then have the conflict with Comanche.

^^ this. The start and the cross were just so unlike WOXI of old it's just plain weird.
Donk, the cross to me was just bad bad bad. If they had of held course, Comanche may have needed to duck a wee amount, but it would have been a trivial issue. Like FR said, it's like they tried to lee bow Comanche but forgot to tell the crew.
Weird indeed for such a pro crew.

Slop at the entrance probably spoiled their perception of speed and distance. From my armchair Oats screwed up badly. Then made the whole thing worse by not clearing the area and doing penalty turns while the wind was still light. The impression that left with a lot of viewers I'm sure is that the rules are only for other people! Spithill witnessed the incident and had to protest. If he did not protest he could have been protested!

Like you Shaggy I got the impression from the onboard video Oats could have passed in front of Comanche by a whisker and their tacking was actually the poor judgement. If it was actually poor judgement and not a tactic. They should have done two circles.

Lungs has a point about WOX putting Comanche in a position of the overtaking boat thereby having
to give way to the boat in front until amidships. It may have been an unsporting tack but was it illegal ?.

The SIs state that penalty turns are required before the final turning markers or if in the event of a protest being upheld (and turns not being done) the offending boat will get a time penalty of not less than 5 mins.
I'd say in not doing the penalty turns (which IMHO they were obliged to do in breaching Rules 10 & 13) they made a decision to take a more seamanlike approach given the spectator craft and the factor of doing such turns on a large boat was more risky, than fighting it in the protest room, or trying to win by an amount that negates the time penalty.....or that the time penalty will mean nothing at the conclusion of the race anyway.
Either way they have made their decision and the cards will now fall where they will....If Comanche proceed with the protest.
I applaud Comanche for ensuring there was no contact as it could have been pretty ugly.
Not sure how Wild Oats got it so wrong on the start line with all that talent on board....seems they wanted the windward position on the others but completely lost touch with time on distance to the line and that there were other boats who would impede them.
Perhaps Spithill psyched Richards out of trying the pin end....WOXI certainly didn't want to mix it up...maybe the boat has been sold??

Should be a no brainer but it is a Hobart jury.
So a few good IJs and dross.

Comanchie had to alter course to avoid collision .... So yes they should win protest .

I'm backing a Comanche protest, for what its worth. However there was a little bear-away move from Comx, before resuming a windward position. One would really need an aerial view to be sure. I'm sure it is hard to maneouver an aircraft carrier in close quarters. A silly incident in a 600+ mile race.

Looks like wild oats may win l/o any how . As I think they beat Comanche by more than 30 min ..... The protest and subsequent penalty may be 10 min or something ..... So still a wo win ...

Well MR has just stated he doesn't think there was anything in it, and the most important thing is to get these 100 footers out of the harbour safely.

It will be interesting to see if JS feels the same way.

Americas Cup Match Racer vs Ocean Racer? 2 different points of view perhaps?

If the important thing is to get out of the harbour safely then Richo could easily have ducked under Comanche's stern, and not created an unsafe situation.

Ocean racers can play very, very hard - just ask Dave Forbes and the ghost of the late Peter Kurts, who lost a Hobart when Forbes (sailing on Drake's Prayer with Peter) put out a hand in a reflex action at the start and touched another boat that was almost touching them because (IIRC) it had in turn been hit by another boat. Although Peter's boat was not in the wrong, having contact with another boat and not putting in a protest was enough to have them penalised out of first place on a protest from Ron Jacobs.

The irony is that because of a flaw in the SIs, although Kurtsy was penalised out of first, there was no provision to move anyone into first so Jacobs still got second.

Well for all its worth I sailed for a few years and for the love of me I cannot see why WOats had to get into that position. Comx didn't have to tack they WOats had to give way. No need at all to get that close therefore should have gone way behind Comx. Should by all means lose protest, taking nothing away from Oats[ great yacht great crew] it was just plane stupid.

WOXI penalised 1 hour.....Comanche now wins LH.

Good decision ! WO put two boats and crew at high risk of extrem damage . They deserved to be pinged !

So, can WO take it to court and prolong it . Money will not be an issue

Justice Done .....Yes hour penalty savage but them the rules.. To cocky to do the turn around and payed the price.

This is a copy of the protest document that was on display today

Regards Don

Horrible way to end a great race.

Does that mean W.O. looses its record?

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Bananabender said..
So, can WO take it to court and prolong it . Money will not be an issue

International Jury = no appeal under World Sailing rules, I believe. Hard to see an opening for legal challenge.

Why didn't they protest rule 10 as well, should the protest on rule 13 not be successful?

They should also learn to write a bit neater and spell correctly, looks rather amateurish considering the stakes with million dollar boats and hot shot pro crews. Maybe I'm just a pedant?

It was the correct decision. Silly error of judgement on WO's part that could have been easily solved by clearing the area and doing penalty turns. It might have been exciting for the spectator boats following and would certainly have been good TV. The other yachts close by would have witnessed the incident and would have been obliged to protest against Spithill if he did not protest. Committee boats near the rounding marks would also been able to protest. Spectators and even us armchair experts could also have stumped up the protest fee and protested WO under rule 69.
This is an international event watched by millions of people around the world raced under the same set of rules. There is a lesson here for everyone.

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FreeRadical said..
Why didn't they protest rule 10 as well, should the protest on rule 13 not be successful?

They should also learn to write a bit neater and spell correctly, looks rather amateurish considering the stakes with million dollar boats and hot shot pro crews. Maybe I'm just a pedant?

I agree, J Spithills writing/spelling could do with some improvement, however, it appears it was ledgible enough to be accepted.

I think wild oats made a boo boo from what is a fairly normal occurence on a race course. they tried to duck directly in front of comanche to feed them some bad wind, then screwed the tack up. To everyone here it seems like a rash decision, to the guys that race these things, its business as usual.

it appears theyve accepted their relegation to 2nd place anyway.