Because I hold a mooring licence in the Galdstone Port Authority jurisdiction I received an email invite to a forum to be held on the issue of "wrecks" in our waterways. Excerpts below.

Good afternoon Gladstone region stakeholder, The War on Wrecks (WoW) Taskforce will be visiting Gladstone on Monday 28 September. At this forum, the WoW Taskforce will share the significant progress made in removing derelicts from our beaches, rivers and creeks and invite discussion on the next steps, which is preliminary work in the areas of licencing and registration, to create a culture of responsible boat ownership, and ultimately, safer and cleaner waterways in Queensland.

Who should come along: We encourage you and your recreational boating friends to come along to discuss potential changes to licencing and registration. When: Monday 28 September 1.30 - 3.00pm Where: Rydges Gladstone, 100 Goondoon Street, GladstoneRegister at: www.msq.qld.gov.au/waronwrecks or search 'War on Wrecks'

I believe it is a good initiative that will improve standards in our water ways but by the looks it will come at a price i.e. changes to licencing and registration.


This may be the first step towards "seaworthiness inspections" being required for boat registration which I think is not a bad idea in itself provided the conditions are not too arduous.

What is the general consensus of the forum members on this??

Hmmm....as long as we don't have to jump through hoops just to get our boats registered. And it always seems
the 'powers that be' need you to be able to see the big stick they're holding, and if they haven't got one they'll
get one.

i dont agree with inspections to get rego each year, but maybe give the authorities power to defect dodgy looking boats, which will then have to pass an inspection.

In Japan we have an inspection every 3 years. (All done on weekdays between 9:00 am and 5:00 pm.)
A minor one when the inspector comes out to the boat and checks safety gear,( PDF. flares. Nav lights. extinguisher.). engine start, charts. etc. Done in 10 minutes.
And a major one when the inspector comes out when the boat is out of the water, Same as minor plus. rudder , prop nuts. shaft. etc.
$100 for minor. $300 for major.
This ALL BOATS. even a 12 footer with a 4 HP on the back.
Legally 12 footers need a chart, but.......


I will just clarify that.
The inspections are minor, major, minor and so on every 3 years
Gary

G'day Cisco,

Depending on how it is implemented I think it is a good move. The wrecks taking up moorings in Sydney and Pittwater waste resources and are a hazard to other vessels.

I don't think a onboard inspection of every boat is necessary but the boating officer driving by and picking out the obviously unattended/poorly maintained ones for an inspection would be appropriate.

The problem is who decides what is a wreck. We might think it's a wreck but the boat could be someones pride and joy and a liveaboard. The current regulations in NSW that cover the appearance of yachts is a matter of interpretation and bias. We have had boating officers that just hate ferro boats, even if they are sometimes hard to pick as ferro. Steel yachts are a problem in my neck of the woods. They tend to look bad as soon as the rust stain appears and the notice stuck to the cabin soon appears!

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Ramona said..
The problem is who decides what is a wreck. We might think it's a wreck but the boat could be someones pride and joy and a liveaboard. The current regulations in NSW that cover the appearance of yachts is a matter of interpretation and bias. We have had boating officers that just hate ferro boats, even if they are sometimes hard to pick as ferro. Steel yachts are a problem in my neck of the woods. They tend to look bad as soon as the rust stain appears and the notice stuck to the cabin soon appears!

A very valid point but to me if it isn't seaworthy it is a wreck. It should be able to get underway on its own and not be in danger of sinking. A 15 minute drive around any bay here will identify boats warranting an inspection. A set of protocols similar to a car safety inspection would provide the requirements.

How hard and expensive is it to dispose of an old boat?
Is that an issue with a boat that isn't used much and unlikely to sell? What options are there?

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garymalmgren said..
In Japan we have an inspection every 3 years.
[...]
And a major one when the inspector comes out when the boat is out of the water, Same as minor plus. rudder , prop nuts. shaft. etc.
[...]

Gary, so with those inspections, is say, the major one enough to satisfy insurance rather than a survey?

What about buying a boat, if it has had a recent inspection do buyers also usually also get a survey? If there some paperwork that you received with a condition report or just items ticked as satisfactory?

I really think it is a safety issue more than anything else.

If a motor vehicle is unroadworty, it legally and morally should not be on the road.

I think the same principal should and does actually apply to water craft with a 4 hp or more propulsion engine. The water cops can do you for much the same as in a car.

Even if vessel owners were required to sign a stat dec stating that their vessel is seaworthy upon annual re-registration that would be a move in the right direction as it would put the legal onus on the vessel owner in cases of misadventure.

We have read too many stories of disaster on this forum where the competence of the crew and the seaworthines has been questionable.

Like it says on the front cover of the Qld "Beacon to Beacon" directory and any other MSQ publication, "Your'e the skipper, your'e responsible." I am happy with that.

When a vessel looks like a dunger it probably is one and is most probably not seaworthy.

The days of old hermits living on unseaworty vessels in the back waters are gone.

I think it's a good program that is delivering what it set out to do. I highly doubt there will be yearly inspections, these days registering a car in Qld in paperless. I think the registration & licensing is so that they can track ownership because the war on wrecks has cost the taxpayer a lot of money. They want to be able to track ownership & charge the owner for removing wrecks next time! Or better yet get the insurance company to do.

Gary, so with those inspections, is say, the major one enough to satisfy insurance rather than a survey?
Nothing to do with survey or insurance. The inspections are to satisfy the Department of Marine Traffic Safety only.

What about buying a boat, if it has had a recent inspection do buyers also usually also get a survey? If there some paperwork that you received with a condition report or just items ticked as satisfactory?
Both the minor and major inspections are "tick the box" jobs, the paperwork and sticker are necessary for registration.

I feel that the inspectors are experienced enough to spot any serious safety issue.
It would come back on them if a vessel that they passed was found to be unsafe.

Gary

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john24 said..
How hard and expensive is it to dispose of an old boat?
Is that an issue with a boat that isn't used much and unlikely to sell? What options are there?

For a 32 foot yacht it's $40,000. This is for NSW. If the owner does not have the money and they obviously don't, the government [us] have a fund set aside to cover the costs. The boat is shifted to a hard stand for 3 months and the yacht is up for sale to try and cover the costs. If it does not sell it's broken up.

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Ramona said..

john24 said..
How hard and expensive is it to dispose of an old boat?
Is that an issue with a boat that isn't used much and unlikely to sell? What options are there?

For a 32 foot yacht it's $40,000. This is for NSW. If the owner does not have the money and they obviously don't, the government [us] have a fund set aside to cover the costs. The boat is shifted to a hard stand for 3 months and the yacht is up for sale to try and cover the costs. If it does not sell it's broken up.

Wow, that's more than I could have imagined!
Perhaps the government could make it easier and cheaper. It's not exactly comparable but the govt has scheme for householders to get rid of dangerous chemicals that would otherwise be expensive to dispose of properly.

Say one weekend every couple of years, an owner of a wreck could take the boat to a nominated lift out point, where some operator could handle the extraction and transport to a break up site.

Even if the govt only recovers a small percentage of the costs doing a dozen or so boats at once, the cost should be less than the cost now and keeping the waterways safer.

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john24 said..

Ramona said..

john24 said..
How hard and expensive is it to dispose of an old boat?
Is that an issue with a boat that isn't used much and unlikely to sell? What options are there?

For a 32 foot yacht it's $40,000. This is for NSW. If the owner does not have the money and they obviously don't, the government [us] have a fund set aside to cover the costs. The boat is shifted to a hard stand for 3 months and the yacht is up for sale to try and cover the costs. If it does not sell it's broken up.

Wow, that's more than I could have imagined!
Perhaps the government could make it easier and cheaper. It's not exactly comparable but the govt has scheme for householders to get rid of dangerous chemicals that would otherwise be expensive to dispose of properly.

Say one weekend every couple of years, an owner of a wreck could take the boat to a nominated lift out point, where some operator could handle the extraction and transport to a break up site.

Even if the govt only recovers a small percentage of the costs doing a dozen or so boats at once, the cost should be less than the cost now and keeping the waterways safer.

Agree. Simple, effective and efficient.

Except I would think the type of people who are going to let their boat half sink on a mooring have already long gone given up on their property.
I had to do a survey for insurance last year, first one I have had to do. I would think this along with evidence of repairs and subsequent insurance policy renewed should suffice for any government program.

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john24 said..

Ramona said..

john24 said..
How hard and expensive is it to dispose of an old boat?
Is that an issue with a boat that isn't used much and unlikely to sell? What options are there?

For a 32 foot yacht it's $40,000. This is for NSW. If the owner does not have the money and they obviously don't, the government [us] have a fund set aside to cover the costs. The boat is shifted to a hard stand for 3 months and the yacht is up for sale to try and cover the costs. If it does not sell it's broken up.

Wow, that's more than I could have imagined!
Perhaps the government could make it easier and cheaper. It's not exactly comparable but the govt has scheme for householders to get rid of dangerous chemicals that would otherwise be expensive to dispose of properly.

Say one weekend every couple of years, an owner of a wreck could take the boat to a nominated lift out point, where some operator could handle the extraction and transport to a break up site.

Even if the govt only recovers a small percentage of the costs doing a dozen or so boats at once, the cost should be less than the cost now and keeping the waterways safer.

We are talking government money here. When you see the people making a killing out of the removal of these vessels, the work is all outsourced to "contractors" you will see why they are pressuring the BO to tidy up the place. It has nothing to do with freeing up moorings, the moorings in the local cases have been removed as well even though the fees are paid up.
It's all about business!

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Ramona said..

john24 said..

Ramona said..

john24 said..
How hard and expensive is it to dispose of an old boat?
Is that an issue with a boat that isn't used much and unlikely to sell? What options are there?

For a 32 foot yacht it's $40,000. This is for NSW. If the owner does not have the money and they obviously don't, the government [us] have a fund set aside to cover the costs. The boat is shifted to a hard stand for 3 months and the yacht is up for sale to try and cover the costs. If it does not sell it's broken up.

Wow, that's more than I could have imagined!
Perhaps the government could make it easier and cheaper. It's not exactly comparable but the govt has scheme for householders to get rid of dangerous chemicals that would otherwise be expensive to dispose of properly.

Say one weekend every couple of years, an owner of a wreck could take the boat to a nominated lift out point, where some operator could handle the extraction and transport to a break up site.

Even if the govt only recovers a small percentage of the costs doing a dozen or so boats at once, the cost should be less than the cost now and keeping the waterways safer.

We are talking government money here. When you see the people making a killing out of the removal of these vessels, the work is all outsourced to "contractors" you will see why they are pressuring the BO to tidy up the place. It has nothing to do with freeing up moorings, the moorings in the local cases have been removed as well even though the fees are paid up.
It's all about business!

Cynical I think. The thousands of moorings here in Sydney need cleaning up of the wrecks. The moorings stay and are taken up quickly.

I'm pretty sceptical of and would strongly oppose any excuse for more charges on moored boats any mandated check basically turns into a great gravy train for someone most likely boat yards and surveyors basically you'll end up paying another 200-400+ a year. It's already hard enough having a boat on a mooring as a hobby and we should do everything we can to encourage people rather than making it even more expensive and time consuming.

Sure mooring minders are an issue in some areas but there should be more than enough from mooring licence, registration fees, boat licences etc to police that and where possible costs should be pushed back on owners. The system is pretty good at the moment the last thing we want is it to become even more expensive and over regulated like everything else in life.

Honestly annual mooring audits, insurance surveys, ever increasing zero tolerance from waterways/water police, dishonest trades, cartel like behaviour from slipways all increasing their prices etc etc it's basically turning something relaxing into a nightmare and after having many boats for years since a teen another forced requirement would see me just exit the hobby I think.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
+100

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Ramona said..

john24 said..
How hard and expensive is it to dispose of an old boat?
Is that an issue with a boat that isn't used much and unlikely to sell? What options are there?

For a 32 foot yacht it's $40,000. This is for NSW. If the owner does not have the money and they obviously don't, the government [us] have a fund set aside to cover the costs. The boat is shifted to a hard stand for 3 months and the yacht is up for sale to try and cover the costs. If it does not sell it's broken up.

It's pretty easy to tow it out to sea and open seacocks at night.

Just what exactly is a mooring minder? Most people think of mooring minders as old yachts that's sole role is to tie up a mooring position. The reality is though that probably greater than 80% of yachts never leave their moorings more than once a year. I personally know of several $100,000 mooring minders!

"Your'e the Skipper so you're responsible."

I think all of us here are responsible boat owners. Irresponsible boat owners do the wrong thing and cause problems for the rest of us.

A simple stat dec with tick boxes provided by boat owners at each annual registration is an inexpensive way to hopefully eliminate irresponsible boat owners and unsafe vessels by placing the onus squarely on the owner to maintain the vessel in seaworthy condition.

Unregistered vehicles are not allowed on the road and unregistered vessels are not allowed on the water.

It is not hard people.

Suggested "tick boxes'' for a stat dec required to be presented with annual registration applications.

1. Does the owner/operator of the vessel hold the required licence to operate the vessel?
2. Does the vessel have an automatic bilge pump system that will prevent the vessel from sinking while unattended?
3. Does the vessel carry all the safety equipment required for it's area of operation?
4. Does the vessel have the capability of being relocated at short notice (maximum 4 hours) to a safer location?

My belief is that any vessel owner unable to answer those four questions honestly is not a responsible vessel owner!!
Pretty simple guys and does not create another "rip off the boating community industry".

You're the Skipper, you're responsible.

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cisco said..
Suggested "tick boxes'' for a stat dec required to be presented with annual registration applications.

1. Does the owner/operator of the vessel hold the required licence to operate the vessel?
2. Does the vessel have an automatic bilge pump system that will prevent the vessel from sinking while unattended?
3. Does the vessel carry all the safety equipment required for it's area of operation?
4. Does the vessel have the capability of being relocated at short notice (maximum 4 hours) to a safer location?

My belief is that any vessel owner unable to answer those four questions honestly is not a responsible vessel owner!!
Pretty simple guys and does not create another "rip off the boating community industry".

You're the Skipper, you're responsible.

In NSW yacht owners don't need a license. Item 2 is pointless if the float switch is not one that has no moving parts. The usual failure point is float switches that stick open and flatten the batteries. Once you start legislation rules on what owners have to buy it soon becomes a slippery slope!
I would however be happy if it was made compulsory for an anchor to be able to be easily accessed and set by the people rescuing the yacht when it comes off the mooring.

Inspections and stat decs are relevant for conscientious skippers who are probably doing the right thing now.
What I see in the promotional video is abandoned boats.
I imagine that all identifyers have been removed and the boats dragged to their final resting place and left.
The current system of identifying and removing them might be costly, but it is removing navigational pollution hazards as well as eyesores.

I say just carry on with the current system and get on with life and sailing.

Gary

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Ramona said..

Item 2 is pointless if the float switch is not one that has no moving parts.

The intent of Cisco's "draft" is for a "working" system. If it doesn't work, then the answer to item 2 will be "no", regardless of its components.

Stepping back, I am in favour of fostering responsible boat ownership. A lightweight approach that Cisco proposes would be a move in the right direction. Our coastal rivers and waters, and oceans are not refuse tips.

Why not just annually confirm the vessel owners details, vessel permanent location, and submit a photo either at registration or an annual photo if you want to take it up a notch. That would greatly assist with identifying the owners of wrecks and chasing cleanup costs in the event it's required. It seems the majority of these issues relates to abandoned vessels. I'd still be opposed to anything further at least in NSW I can't comment on the requirements in other states.

But really there should be plenty of funds to deal with wrecks across the state from mooring license fees considering you're paying 400-1000+ per year in Sydney and then Rego 200-300+ on top of that plus a boat licence fee if you have one.

I once had my marine diesel lifted out of my sailboat into a garage for a three month overhaul (by me). Ended up spending well over 12 months in the garage; you know the drill. Not game to try sailing my boat off it's mooring, really need the engine.
According to one criterion for moored boats mentioned above, people like me should loose their mooring.

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Karsten said..
According to one criterion for moored boats mentioned above, people like me should loose their mooring.

Not at all, at all!!! None of the items, in particular Item 4 makes reference to an engine fitted in the vessel. There plenty of ways to move a vessel with no engine in it. Flag Zulu, I need a tug may be noticed by a passing Good Samaritin. Outboards on transom or tinnie/s lashed alongside. It merely asks :- 4. Does the vessel have the capability of being relocated at short notice (maximum 4 hours) to a safer location?

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Sydney88 said..
Why not just annually confirm the vessel owners details, vessel permanent location, and submit a photo either at registration or an annual photo if you want to take it up a notch. That would greatly assist with identifying the owners of wrecks and chasing cleanup costs in the event it's required. It seems the majority of these issues relates to abandoned vessels. I'd still be opposed to anything further at least in NSW I can't comment on the requirements in other states.

But really there should be plenty of funds to deal with wrecks across the state from mooring license fees considering you're paying 400-1000+ per year in Sydney and then Rego 200-300+ on top of that plus a boat licence fee if you have one.

The NSW Boating officers are doing this all the time. They regularly park alongside your boat and check the right boat is on the right mooring and check the GPS to ensure your mooring is in the right place. They also ensure your boat fits the rules for owning a mooring and if your boat does not have a reasonable colour scheme, has too much shell on the bottom and generally untidy you can expect a phone call or an email and a sticker on your boat.
Border patrol also photograph all the commercial vessels each year to update their records and keep current with the vessels colour schemes.
Nsw has a scheme already where they use taxpayers money to remove vessels from the waterways. Not necessarily wrecks. If you don't pay your fees you can expect a warning then the boat will be removed and up for auction. We have lost 4 vessels from the local moorings already and another one is in the firing line!