Hi All,

I have been reading the forum for a couple of years now, having recently sold my yacht for a price that could make a grown man cry I started to ponder maybe I dodged a bullet!

I had numerous people and brokers approach me showing me other boats for sale during the 6 months it took me to come to reality.

The question I ask is what is a boat from the mid 80's with original engine and electrical wiring, plumbing etc really worth if we put our accountant hats on.

A recent example I viewed was a late 80's Cavalier 37 with 2010 Yanmar engine low hours, Rigging done less than 10 years ago and the boat had been rewired etc overall in excellent condition. The broker was asking 55 and I assume it ended up somewhere in the 40's after haggling.

If you took then a boat that had nothing done but was in good condition to it what would a realistic price be?

Approx Boat value after work done 45k
Repower 30-35hp 15-18k incl install
Rigging Standing & Running 6 - 10k (cant get insurance without it)
Wiring and Plumbing etc 2k?
Misc Items 2k

Does this make the above hypothetical boat really worth 13k?

If you pay more for it you have essentially lost money the moment you take ownership.

Assuming there are other issues with a boat of that age e.g through hull fittings need replacing, Keel bolts might be looking sad, Stern and Rudder glands are starting to leak it wouldn't take much to bring the above into negative territory.


It is sad to think about but my business hat suggests a lot of older yachts are approaching the point where they are worth more for scrap a sad day indeed or maybe a happy day if you are a retired shipwright.

Graham.

I have a mid 80's boat brought at a good price but have spent close to twice the purchase price on it.
my thoughts are spend the money now I should have the major expenses paid for the next 10 years the thing is I know I have to keep it for 10 years to get my value out of her.

My opinion is that bigger sailing boats looked after and fixed up are a good investment. Lucky for us there are no new design boats that are good and cheap entering the market like whats happening with cars. Hyundai's and similar which are cheap, long warranty and not bad (I dont work for Hyundai) have forced the second hand car market down hugely I think.

The same pool of boats goes around and around in Oz and those boats kind of stay the same value but if you renovate them they can go upwards in value a lot. My boats roughly doubled in value in 5 years due to fixing it which was fun on the way and good exercise. The doubling in value is $35K purchase to $70K offer 2 years ago.

I just did a quick look on the net

In 1999 I sold my Spacesailor 24 for $20K. 17 years later Spacesailor 24's are still $20K. Much better investment than a car.

I am looking to buy at the moment and am facing the same problem but on the other side as a buyer. Plenty of older yachts around but all with original engine, need rigging and most of the wiring I have seen resembles a birds nest of loose ends.

While I have the money to spend doing a boat up I would like to have some reasonable chance at recouping some of the cost, its a different ballpark when you are talking about throwing 20 - 30k down the drain which is possible with some of the asking prices floating around. I saw the Cavalier you are referring to on-line and its not an isolated issue. When someone is able to buy something with a new engine and rigging for under 50k why would they look at my boat in a few years time if it doesn't have the same 30k worth of improvements. After having 2 projects in the past and learning the hard way I know what I will be doing next, saving the blood sweat and tears and buying something I can sail today with the hard work already done. I think it will be interesting over the next few years as boats from the 90's have taken the place of what we would have paid several years ago for a boat from the 80's. I am in my early 30's and growing up I was used to the idea that a car from 2000 was really recent, it is funny how that idea sticks in your mind for years until one day the switch flicks and you say wow that is actually 16 years old now.

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Trek said..


I just did a quick look on the net

In 1999 I sold my Spacesailor 24 for $20K. 17 years later Spacesailor 24's are still $20K. Much better investment than a car.

I would disagree with that Spacesailor evaluation. Same issue as the original poster raises. There is on on there for $18,500 "$10,000 spent upgrading this Spacesailer 24. New SS rigging fittings, Lazy Jack mainsail, Self Furling Genoa, dinghy painted, electrical wiring replaced, new marine battery, new Tohatsu 4 stroke 6 HP long shaft, new chemical toilet- trouble free sailing, 510 (1.79 m) headroom, separate toilet, sleeps up to 5 people and single handed sailing. Built by Newport Boats Pittwater slipped and anti-fouled ready to go."

I reckon that guy would jump over the moon if you offered him even 15k in the current market. Now what does that make the other ones worth? probably around 5k like the other examples listed for 8k. I can tell you now selling my yacht last year was one hell of a lonely place to be.

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mat166801 said..

Trek said..


I just did a quick look on the net

In 1999 I sold my Spacesailor 24 for $20K. 17 years later Spacesailor 24's are still $20K. Much better investment than a car.

I would disagree with that Spacesailor evaluation. Same issue as the original poster raises. There is on on there for $18,500 "$10,000 spent upgrading this Spacesailer 24. New SS rigging fittings, Lazy Jack mainsail, Self Furling Genoa, dinghy painted, electrical wiring replaced, new marine battery, new Tohatsu 4 stroke 6 HP long shaft, new chemical toilet- trouble free sailing, 510 (1.79 m) headroom, separate toilet, sleeps up to 5 people and single handed sailing. Built by Newport Boats Pittwater slipped and anti-fouled ready to go."

I reckon that guy would jump over the moon if you offered him even 15k in the current market. Now what does that make the other ones worth? probably around 5k like the other examples listed for 8k. I can tell you now selling my yacht last year was one hell of a lonely place to be.

Spacesailor 24. $21K. Here it is

http://www.boatsales.com.au/boats-for-sale/dealer/used/OAG-AD-2705662/1984-SPACESAILER-24?cr=1&psq=%28%28%28Make%3DSPACESAILER%26Model%3D24%29%26%28%28%28SiloType%3DDealer%20used%20boats|SiloType%3DDealer%20new%20boats%29|SiloType%3DPrivate%20used%20boats%29|SiloType%3DDemo%20and%20near%20new%20boats%29%29%26Service%3DBoatsales%29&pso=0&pss=Premium

Spacesailor 24. $37K. Heres another!

www.boatsales.com.au/boats-for-sale/private/used/SSE-AD-3677635/1982-SPACESAILER-24?cr=4&psq=%28%28%28Make%3DSPACESAILER%26Model%3D24%29%26%28%28%28SiloType%3DDealer%20used%20boats|SiloType%3DDealer%20new%20boats%29|SiloType%3DPrivate%20used%20boats%29|SiloType%3DDemo%20and%20near%20new%20boats%29%29%26Service%3DBoatsales%29&pso=0&pss=Premium

In one of my previous occupations as a yacht broker I found these keep their value especially well. Unless a dud one.

yachthub.com/list/search.html?se_region=au&action=adv_search&match=all+words&Make_Model=H28&new=New+and+Used+Boats&cate=All&hull_material=all&statE=all&price_from=1&price_to=1000000000&poa=yes&order_by=price_asc

Walker H28s above some will sell other's maybe to higher $$ value maybe but it better nick.
I'm leaving mine to my kids if they want to sail or sell it that's there problem .
Some one already asked me if I wanted to sell sorry no way I said.
Besides , I want to call "starboard" on Sands before I die. Ill find him



Sorry Jabberwock looks like you have a pirate ketch

of course the old yachts are a liability, so are the new ones !! B.O.A.T . stands for ? come on now all together .........................



HG when you get me out on starboard , i will gladly duck off the wind for you !!

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SandS said..


of course the old yachts are a liability, so are the new ones !! B.O.A.T . stands for ? come on now all together .........................



HG when you get me out on starboard , i will gladly duck off the wind for you !!

Ill be board siding you Sands

Welcome to the forum Graham73.

Despite the detail of your question, it is still very open ended.

When you said "Does this make the above hypothetical boat really worth 13k?", I assume you meant $130,000 not $13,000.


You also referred to "A recent example I viewed was a late 80's Cavalier 37 with 2010 Yanmar engine low hours, Rigging done less than 10 years ago and the boat had been rewired etc overall in excellent condition. The broker was asking 55 and I assume it ended up somewhere in the 40's after haggling."

This makes me assume you are interested in an "Ocean Going Yacht". Be that the case, I highly recommend a read of Donald Steet's "The Ocean Sailing Yacht".

When considering buying a yacht, you need to take your accountant's hat off because any accountant worth his salt, and they are few and far between, will tell that buying a yacht is a bad financial decision likely to lead to financial ruin.

If that has not deterred you, take off the accountant's hat and don your sailing cap. The most important aspect of buying a yacht is that it is of a good design for the purpose intended. Don't even think about dollars yet as you have already proven yourself to be financially inept with your determination to buy a yacht. You are beyond redemption to the normality of mainstream society.

You are buggered mate. Every computer your name comes up on will have a "Red Flag - Not Normal" on it.

So having committed yourself to "Not Normal", you have to determine which design of vessel will take you to the extremity of your not normalness. That done you can really get down to business. From here it is just a matter of market research and determining if you just want to go or if you have the time, patience and skills to turn a fixerupper into your Tardis.

If a yacht is 30 years old and has not had at least one complete refit of everything, it will need it very soon particularly with electrics.

Happy Hunting.

Graham
One thing to focus on when buying a yacht is what purpose do you have in mind two boats one for weekend cruising and one for long distance cruising has a lot more differences to sustain the humans on board . The long distance cruiser maybe full of necessary items costing twice as much easily even more than the $13 K yacht.
There like books and ladies its what inside that counts. plus the usual rigging , sails and general condition of the boat you are thinking of buying.
Unfortunately for me I'm not the best writer in world far from it and putting things down in writing does not fully project what i mean

Yes buying a yacht is financial madness but I guess we are all members of the nut case club here. I suggest an AA type meeting where we can talk through our madness. Just joking.

From my understanding and I could be wrong Graham probably was looking at the same boat I saw but I saw it too late.

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/cavalier-37/182818

I think what he is suggesting is that if this went for somewhere in the 40k region what is a boat that has not had anything done to it worth? You would say 13k as suggested is madness but is it?

This is the same issue that is plaguing my mind as I always assumed if I brought a yacht like this well and if I repowered it and did the rigging and wiring I could sell it for a good price eventually recouping some of my money. Now the real question is what is a good price to buy a boat that has had nothing done to it but is in okay structural condition? To repower and re rig might get you a small amount of change from 30k but not much assuming you cant do it yourself.

If your looking at this age of vessel then forget about full insurance and just have 3rd party. You will need that for some marinas and public slips. Then the value of the vessel is what your willing to pay for it. Forget investments and realize that the money spent is gone. If it sinks it's gone. You will be surprised how good a seaman you are with an uninsured vessel. When I was a fisherman it was obvious uninsured vessels never sank but those that were sank and surprisingly when a friend was nearby.

Yachts are cheap and will continue to fall in price. If you can sell a Spacesailer 24 for more than 10 grand you are doing exceptionally well.

With regard to rigging and insurance.

When we purchased our current boat the insurers (Club Marine) wanted a rigging survey.

The rigging survey came back very good but because the rig was older than 10 years the insurers wouldn't comer it. They still gave us cover for everything else, just not the rig.

That enabled us to use facilities where insurance in mandatory until we got the rig replaced.

Shortly later we re rigged for 2.5k (cutter, furler, twin backstays with insulators and twin lowers) and a report to Club Marine from the rigger and we were fuly insured.

MY POINT, don't think that because the rigging of the boat you might be lookong at is out of date that it will stop you getting insurance.

In our case the cost of the rigging was unimportant as it wasn't to expensive and everything else about the boat suited us just fine.

Mind you, we spent over a year looking at overpriced junk before finding what we were after.

Hi you cant look at brand new prices when looking at second hand boats eg new motor 2010 worth 15 to 18 thousand. Well its 6 years old now worth less then halve that.
At the end of the day its not an investment its a toy, a hobbie. Good for the kids and family with lasting memories. Bit like an over seas holiday that you could blow $10000 that you never get back again
Probly get your money worth if you lived on it instead of renting or big morgage.

Indeed $$$ has nothing to do with it really where sailing boats are concerned.

For example a boat thats sailed the Pacific has a certain character and reputation that cant be converted into $$$. Or the Atlantic even more dollars. To stand on the decks of a boat like that is a wonderful thrill that makes one feel like adventure. I think its called "sea fever" Standing on the deck of a boat thats won lots of sailing championships is like sitting on a champion race horse. Who cares if the rigging's a bit rusty or a few things need fixing, sailings for love of the sea, wind and nature not economics

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Trek said..


Indeed $$$ has nothing to do with it really where sailing boats are concerned.

For example a boat thats sailed the Pacific has a certain character and reputation that cant be converted into $$$. Or the Atlantic even more dollars. To stand on the decks of a boat like that is a wonderful thrill that makes one feel like adventure. I think its called "sea fever" Standing on the deck of a boat thats won lots of sailing championships is like sitting on a champion race horse. Who cares if the rigging's a bit rusty or a few things need fixing, sailings for love of the sea, wind and nature not economics

spot on Trek !!! our old boats will give us joy , in return for some boat dollars and tinkering !!

Old boats with a few cruising extras do help though

I have spent a lot of my money on slow boats, fast cars, grog and bad women.

The rest I have wasted.

I reckon the dollar value of boats at tje moment has a lot to do with the volume of used boats (and new) on the market today and the numbers of buyers about. Add to that the costs of maintainance and limited places to park them which also drives up the values of moorings and marina pens.
A friend of mine built his boat over 30 years ago and enjoyed the coastal cruising he amd his wife and kids did. He reluctantly sold it due to age and declining interest for half what he thought it was worth. But meanwhile over the years his marina berth increased in value to over 10 x what he got for the boat.
Crazy times indead
I wouldnt swap my 75 model Cape Barren Goose GRP (built like an icebreaker with stringers frames bulkheads and massive steel ring frame) for any modern grp foam and ply production boat.
I am the third owner but really just its current caretaker as it will outlive me.
Maintaining my boat gives me pleasure as well as security and trust.
Its a pity the modern boat buyer gets caught up in the world of consuming and devaluating assets.

The real problem is that those yachts built in the 60s and 70s were over built and just won't go away!

A couple of years ago we priced a new Top Hat [we had access to the builders manual for quantity etc].

Originally priced at around 27K up to 38k from start to when production stopped, for a basic fitout.

That was the price of a unit in Sydney at that time.

Today prices range from 3k to 15k

But the price to build a NEW one is around $110,000 [I'll repeat that $110,000]!!!!!

Labour and material cost have gone through the roof, so those yachts from the 60s to 70s can really be a bargain,
but as most of you have said the purchase price is only the entry price to your beloved!

So far the best analogy I have seen on here is to value the boat the same as you would value a world tour. Both are going to cost a lot of money and there will never be a tangible return on your investment other than the memories that you take away from your adventures. So if buying an older boat is what makes you happy and hopefully give you many happy memories then go for it by all means.

Its been said. If it Flies, Floats or Hmmmm! Rent it!

Never met a person satisfied with that arrangement.

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Libran said..
I have spent a lot of my money on slow boats, fast cars, grog and bad women.

The rest I have wasted.

Now there is a man who has a good grip on reality.

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cisco said..

Libran said..
I have spent a lot of my money on slow boats, fast cars, grog and bad women.

The rest I have wasted.

Now there is a man who has a good grip on reality.

I add fast bikes as well to that list

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Ambler said..
I reckon the dollar value of boats at tje moment has a lot to do with the volume of used boats (and new) on the market today and the numbers of buyers about. Add to that the costs of maintainance and limited places to park them which also drives up the values of moorings and marina pens.
A friend of mine built his boat over 30 years ago and enjoyed the coastal cruising he amd his wife and kids did. He reluctantly sold it due to age and declining interest for half what he thought it was worth. But meanwhile over the years his marina berth increased in value to over 10 x what he got for the boat.
Crazy times indead
Its a pity the modern boat buyer gets caught up in the world of consuming and devaluating assets.

Totally agree with your observation , the consuming aspect of owning a keeler is the greatest barrier to ownership

How much a boat is worth should not be the question, the question should be how much money are you prepared to pay for your insanity, from the day you buy a boat to the day you finally sell it, you are continually putting your hand in your pocket, to upgrade, fix or just operate your your boat, not to mention mooring fees registration and other expenses, so if after you've paid everything that you have to just so you can get out on the water for a weekend, that feeling of enjoyment we all know and love of sailing just makes all that money spent feel so irrelevant, that no matter how much or how little you have had to spend it's all worth while for those times you manage to get away from the land

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LooseChange said..
So far the best analogy I have seen on here is to value the boat the same as you would value a world tour. Both are going to cost a lot of money and there will never be a tangible return on your investment other than the memories that you take away from your adventures. So if buying an older boat is what makes you happy and hopefully give you many happy memories then go for it by all means.

Well said Loose Change

And then there is the aspect of putting your "stamp" on it. You want it to be "your boat" not
someone else's boat that you have bought, so you spend some cash to make it "just right"
Then every time you step on board you get that "yeah" feeling. Priceless.

Someone posted here somewhere, sometime

You don't own a boat....its just left ( hopefully) in your safe keeping for a time.

I remember it because it's true.

Its not what it costs to buy...but what it costs to keep

And if you cant afford keep it....Don't buy it

I get the vibe most on here do most their own maintenance.

That labor savings is tremendous. ...plus

There is nothing so fun....as mucking around fixing up your own boat.
You cant take the $$$ with ya

But you will remember the sunsets in the bay as you die