Hi all

I notice that a lot of older boats (around the 40 foot Mark) have running back stays

The only experience I have had with them was a day spent on Maxi Ragamuffin a couple of years ago on the Derwent where I thought they were a bit of a pain and I wondered what damage might be done with a accidental gyre

Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated

Regards Don

Hi Don,
Excellent for tweaking/tuning that extra ****teenth out of a windward leg, it really makes a difference.
Hate everything else about them, and yes, danger danger if you have some poor inexperienced soul when gybing lots on a downwind leg.

Runners can be a real pain if you are not used to them. I grew up using them on my father's Jubilee on PPB, where they were the only backstay. My old father is 90 and has been sailing Jubilees since 1950. If he tacks a yacht without runners he feels he has forgotten something. The normal racing crew for a Jube is 3, but father regularly sailed alone until we banned solo outings a couple of years ago. He proved that it is quite possible to set sails, tack/gybe with runners, pick up moorings, and in light winds set the spinnaker on ones own.

Running backstays are used on sloop rigs (mast head rig) that have an inner forestay for carrying a cutter or maybe storm jib. The attachment point on the mast for the running backstays is opposite the attachment point for the inner forestay.

Some new boat have fractional rigs. This is where the forestay is attached, not at the top of the mast, but maybe 1/7 of the way down. To help support the mast at the attachment point of the forestay, these boat also have swept back spreaders.

Use to race on a boat that had so much roach in the main that we (me) had to release the back stay to tack. There was a flexible strap of the top of the mast to help lift the slackened back stay over main as we tacked. There were 2 sets of blocks (corse & fine) which needed to be tensioned to get the back stay tightened again. While doing this I also has to work the main sheet and travellers to keep captain Bligh on the helm happy. And if we tacked and went off the wind I had to release the out haul on the boom and the Cunningham. I think running back stays may have been less stressful.

The most obvious effect running backstays have on yachts is resale value.

Select to expand quote

Crusoe said..
Running backstays are used on sloop rigs (mast head rig) that have an inner forestay for carrying a cutter or maybe storm jib. The attachment point on the mast for the running backstays is opposite the attachment point for the inner forestay.

Some new boat have fractional rigs. This is where the forestay is attached, not at the top of the mast, but maybe 1/7 of the way down. To help support the mast at the attachment point of the forestay, these boat also have swept back spreaders.

Use to race on a boat that had so much roach in the main that we (me) had to release the back stay to tack. There was a flexible strap of the top of the mast to help lift the slackened back stay over main as we tacked. There were 2 sets of blocks (corse & fine) which needed to be tensioned to get the back stay tightened again. While doing this I also has to work the main sheet and travellers to keep captain Bligh on the helm happy. And if we tacked and went off the wind I had to release the out haul on the boom and the Cunningham. I think running back stays may have been less stressful.

Jumper struts can keep the mast straight on a fractional rig, but they are a pain if you are using a snuffer for the spinnaker.
Runners are good if you use straight spreaders (to let the main out further without chafing the batten pockets) and don't have the lowers spread aft but if you sail a lot single handed, why bother. There is plenty to do without playing with running back stays.

And don't insurance companies just love running backstays.

premiums go thro' the roof for the very fact of people forgetting them when tacking or gybeing and subsequently tearing out the rig.

Mine is fitted for but not with. They were less interested in a carbon mast than the runners, that says something

Select to expand quote

PhoenixStar said..

Crusoe said..
Running backstays are used on sloop rigs (mast head rig) that have an inner forestay for carrying a cutter or maybe storm jib. The attachment point on the mast for the running backstays is opposite the attachment point for the inner forestay.

Some new boat have fractional rigs. This is where the forestay is attached, not at the top of the mast, but maybe 1/7 of the way down. To help support the mast at the attachment point of the forestay, these boat also have swept back spreaders.

Use to race on a boat that had so much roach in the main that we (me) had to release the back stay to tack. There was a flexible strap of the top of the mast to help lift the slackened back stay over main as we tacked. There were 2 sets of blocks (corse & fine) which needed to be tensioned to get the back stay tightened again. While doing this I also has to work the main sheet and travellers to keep captain Bligh on the helm happy. And if we tacked and went off the wind I had to release the out haul on the boom and the Cunningham. I think running back stays may have been less stressful.

Jumper struts can keep the mast straight on a fractional rig, but they are a pain if you are using a snuffer for the spinnaker.
Runners are good if you use straight spreaders (to let the main out further without chafing the batten pockets) and don't have the lowers spread aft but if you sail a lot single handed, why bother. There is plenty to do without playing with running back stays.

My boat is one of those old 40ft'ers with running backstays and straight spreaders. I have a permanent inner forestay fitted with a roller furler. The only sail that goes on it is my storm jib (yes, bright orange) and I wouldn't be without it. Only gets unfurled in 30+ winds and 99% of my sailing is single handed. A resent offshore trip saw me in 30+ for 2 days and all I had up was the storm jib.

The running backstays are very easily handled from the (centre) cockpit and have ropes set up to bring them back to the base of the lower shrouds when not in use. I do not race and they would be a pain, but the bigger hassle is tacking the headsail with an inner forestay. But since I'm more of a cruiser these days, I like my inner forestay and the added rig strength I get from the inner forestay and running backstay combination.

Centre cockpit, running backs, 40 feet...... racing version of the Adams 40?

If so, I envy you.

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..
Centre cockpit, running backs, 40 feet...... racing version of the Adams 40?

If so, I envy you.

Yeah, it is an Adams 40, but not the racing version, but it does get along quite nicely. Don't envy my boat Chris, to me they are all just a way to reach navana. Wether I'm tinkering away in the bilge, motoring into an anchorage or enjoying a nice sail with 15 on the beam, I'm in heaven. Any boat gives these same sensations, no matter how big (well not so big you need a big crew), small, expensive or economical. The sun going down still looks the same no matter what boat you are on. I just feel sorry for people who don't have a boat and some unfortunate people will live their whole lives without ever experiencing these precious moments of bliss.

And when I'm on the boat, I'm Master and Commander (different story when I get home)

i absolutely love running backs my previous yacht 1938 timber mast double in line spreaders with jumpers and runners was infinitely adjustable allowing you to carry sail through a much larger range before reefing and when double reefed you could leave both runners and the backstay on giving a great sense of security in a gale
i always feel they get a bad rap by people who have never used them and though i don't have them on my present boat would prefer a boat with runners

They help you get the last 1/10 of a kt and then lose your rig when you gybe and the boom catches on the runner that was forgotten. Ramona's comment above is on the money.

Any uncontrolled jibe on a boat is both dangerous for the people on board as well as the rig whether you have running backstays or not. I always use boom prevents whether I'm using the running backstays or not.

I can't see how running backstays are an issue for resale of a boat unless there was also no permanent back stay. This maybe the case with old gaff riggers, but I've never seen a sloop set up with out a permanent backstay.

When I stared sailing as a young fella I was told about how an accidental jibe may bring down the rig and can understand the reasoning behind it. But I've never ever heard of it actually happening. I was also told the catamarans fall over. But what I learnt over the years is that it is not the rig or the number of hulls a boat has that the cause the problem, but most times it's the 2 legged mammals clinging to the hull who are the biggest issue.

Select to expand quote

Crusoe said..

I've never seen a sloop set up with out a permanent backstay.

Ahem, Shaggy where are you and your back stay-less boat?

Also does that mean all those other boats out there with B&R rigs, eg, Huinter yachts have a hidden secret back stay somewhere?

My understanding is that boats without a back stay (like this Jenneau 349 and Shaggy's Pogo) at all have swept back spreaders to prevent the top of the mast going forward

Regards Don

The spreaders are raked to an angle of 27 degrees aft. Looking down from the top, the forestay and spreaders almost make perfect 120 degree angles, ie 12 o'clock , 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock position.
The shrouds are then tightened to horrific tensions. I was talking to Christian the owner of Structures about it in the design stage, and I quizzed him about whether I needed backstays for the S2H. He replied with the classic French shrug of the shoulders, and said "for your comfort, maybe. Is it required? Non."
Without the vang connected (no room under the boom) and eased main sheet under strong winds, you can see the mast bend forward slightly.

Select to expand quote

Shaggybaxter said..
The spreaders are raked to an angle of 27 degrees aft. Looking down from the top, the forestay and spreaders almost make perfect 120 degree angles, ie 12 o'clock , 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock position.
The shrouds are then tightened to horrific tensions. I was talking to Christian the owner of Structures about it in the design stage, and I quizzed him about whether I needed backstays for the S2H. He replied with the classic French shrug of the shoulders, and said "for your comfort, maybe. Is it required? Non."
Without the vang connected (no room under the boom) and eased main sheet under strong winds, you can see the mast bend forward slightly.

Hi Shaggy

if you ever do a Sydney Hobart and assuming your mast doesn't fall over because she hasn't got a backstay what's the chances of going for a sail on her while you are down here

Regards Don

Hi Don,
Chances are excellent! Mind you, after reading your post about the fog and rain and lack of wind, I might get you to spring a few woollies.

Select to expand quote

Shaggybaxter said..
Hi Don,
Chances are excellent! Mind you, after reading your post about the fog and rain and lack of wind, I might get you to spring a few woollies.

Hi Shaggy

You wouldn't bother wearing woollies when the weather is nice like I described you would keep them for when the snow starts falling www.themercury.com.au/nocookies?a=A.flavipes

Regards Don

Select to expand quote

Crusoe said..
Any uncontrolled jibe on a boat is both dangerous for the people on board as well as the rig whether you have running backstays or not. I always use boom prevents whether I'm using the running backstays or not.

I can't see how running backstays are an issue for resale of a boat unless there was also no permanent back stay. This maybe the case with old gaff riggers, but I've never seen a sloop set up with out a permanent backstay.

When I stared sailing as a young fella I was told about how an accidental jibe may bring down the rig and can understand the reasoning behind it. But I've never ever heard of it actually happening. I was also told the catamarans fall over. But what I learnt over the years is that it is not the rig or the number of hulls a boat has that the cause the problem, but most times it's the 2 legged mammals clinging to the hull who are the biggest issue.

Next time you see a great boat going cheap check the rig. That SS36 for 20 grand recently on eBay was a terrific buy till you looked at the rig. Not sure if it sold.

I think we need an understanding of what sort and what function of runners are being discussed??
Runners to oppose a stay sail are never going to de value a boat and more than likely have the opposite effect.
Crusoes rig sounds like a pretty solid bluewater set up but I think there is a bit of confusion about running backstays, runners or checkstays.

Select to expand quote

Jolene said..
I think we need an understanding of what sort and what function of runners are being discussed??
Runners to oppose a stay sail are never going to de value a boat and more than likely have the opposite effect.
Crusoes rig sounds like a pretty solid bluewater set up but I think there is a bit of confusion about running backstays, runners or checkstays.

Thanks Jolene, in my previous post I should have wrote "unstayed mast instead of back stay. I was trying to get across the point that all the sloops I have seen can put sail up without the fear of the mast crashing forward, due to the lack of standing rigging aft of the mast.

I have sailed on gaff riggers and the running backstays are vital to preventing the loss of the mast once under sail. But all the rigs, including cats, which some also have similar set ups to Shaggy's, have standing rigging with supports the mast when under sail.

There certainly must be some confusion because I see running back stays on a rig that already has a primary mast support standing rigging system, a bonus and certainly not a reason to make the boat hard to sell. In my case they are only required when you have a sail on the inner forestay. In less than and hour I could remove all traces of them along with the inner forestay and bring the boat back to a standard sloop ready to sail around the cans.

There is a guy in the marina beside me who purchased his boat in America and when he was about 100nm off San Francisco on his way back home, turned around and got Running back stays fitted to prevent his mast from pumping. This guys has more blue water miles under his belt than most and he's a boat builder as well. I respect his option and he has a proven track record.

Select to expand quote

cisco said...

Ramona said..
Lot of boat for the money!

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/sparkman-stephens-36/185740

Unbelievable!!! If that had been for sale Easter two years ago it would be mine.

I will try to have a look at it. Not to buy although the S&S36 is a wonderful boat, but to see what the problem with it is.
The old "Too good to be true ... " saying comes to mind.

In the past few years l had the oppurtunity to sail and race on vessels with conventional standing rigging, no runners at all, boats rigged with running back stay only as well as on a yacht like mine, see picture, and one peculiar one, with no standing rigging at all.

Every one of them sailed beautifully with a competent crew. And this is the peccant part. Competence.

If a sailor has the experience of only one type of rig, his practical knowledge is severely limited. This could be, and it is, the cause of rumours, half baked opinions and 'bad press' for running back stays.

I never had any serious mishaps with runners and l love mine. In high winds when l use the cutter stay to bend the storm sail on, one must use the runners regardless of the adjustable back stay. Bit of extra work, no doubt, but it keeps the rig safe and sound.

If one rejects the merits of the additional running back stay, he does not do himself a favor.

Select to expand quote

MorningBird said..

cisco said...

Ramona said..
Lot of boat for the money!

http://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/sparkman-stephens-36/185740

Unbelievable!!! If that had been for sale Easter two years ago it would be mine.

I will try to have a look at it. Not to buy although the S&S36 is a wonderful boat, but to see what the problem with it is.
The old "Too good to be true ... " saying comes to mind.

The interior needs a tidy up. It's a fractional rig with runners and a deck layout that would be near impossible to sail singlehanded. Great around the cans boat!

Rigging is a form of art and science to me. I have an innerforestay with no runners opposing, due to the rigidity Inherent in the mast. I could spend hours walking around a marina staring at hull forms and rigs.

Here's a pretty neat set up for runners that Andy might be interested in.

Apologies to all if this is teaching people to suck eggs, but as noted by others there does seem to be some confusion about the different types of runners.

The ones on Maxi Ragamuffin would be the type used to adjust the bend on a masthead rig to flatten out a mainsail, with the secondary purpose of stopping the mast from pumping (ie flexing back and forth) in a seaway.

Then there's the ones on cruisers and older ocean racers, which are also used to support an inner forestay with or without a staysail.

Then there's the ones on fractional rig boats that don't actually hold the rig up, normally because the spreaders are swept back enough to keep the stick up. These runners are just there to allow you to keep the forestay tighter in strong winds to flatten the genoa (and of course can be eased off in light winds to allow the genoa to take up a deeper shape).

And then there's the ones on fractional rig boats that have in-line spreaders (ie ones that are not raked aft) where the runners DO hold the rig up. They can be a total PITA, because if you don't have at least one runner on (which means pulling the main into the centre) when you gybe the stick can come down. The advantage of this rig is that it's incredibly adjustable, and each particular control tends to do one particular thing which makes tweaking quite easy in some ways.

Having sailed three boats that got rid of such rigs and went to modern swept-spreader short-overlap rigs (including my own) there's no way I'd want to go back to a rig that needed runners to stay aloft. The modern short-overlap rig without runners is so much easier to deal with. The only problem is that most adjustments are inter-related and not as many controls can be adjusted under way, so you have less flexibility in your mast tuning. In my experience, with my boat, that's more than made up for by the fact that you have more range of jib lead adjustment athwartships. I'm completely sold on it as a racing and cruising rig because of its simplicity, easy handling and enormous wind range.

Think people are confusing check stays and running backstays here.
Even a good swept spreader rig should have the ability to attached check stays at the inner forestay height particularly if setting storm jib off the inner forestay.
Mast compression equals slack rig.

I think Chris and Lydia summed it up quite nicely.
Has anyone seen a monohull backstayless alloy rig?
Edit: clarification :on a keelboat

Select to expand quote

Shaggybaxter said..
I think Chris and Lydia summed it up quite nicely.
Has anyone seen a monohull backstayless alloy rig?
Edit: clarification :on a keelboat

Has anyone seen a monohull backstayless alloy rig? ...... Yes


Edit: clarification :on a keelboat ........ Yes