Hi all

After a bit of advice


My spinnaker pole does not have a bridle on the top or the bottom to attach the topping lift and down haul to

Is there a set angle that the wire should leave the ends of the pole at so I can work out the length of the wire from each end to the ring in the middle

Regards Don

I was just having a look on the net and there were lots of references to using 1/4 inch spectra or dyneema instead of wire for the bridles attached to the ends and the rings using a estar hitch with the knot covered in heat shrink and using snap shackles on the topping lift and down haul

There was also reference to making the angle of the bridle leaving the pole about 40 degrees

Any thoughts on that and also what type size and type of line would be suitable for the topping lift and downhaul on a 28 foot cruiser

Looking at the net 8mm seems to be what is recommended

The only problem I can see is that because the block is located just in front of the base of the mast instead of the middle of the foredeck is that the majority of the load will be on the front of the bridle which makes me wonder if I should just make the angle of the bridle to give a straight line pull from the end of the pole when it is horizontal to the deck mounted block

Also I assume I will have to cleat it off to the cleat on the base of the mast unless I replaced the existing block with one with a jammer fitted

Any thoughts would be appreciated because I am confused about what is needed





Regards Don

Use the Seldon Mast tuning handbook for anything associated with rigs.

www.riggingandsails.com/pdf/selden-tuning.pdf

The choice to have a bridle or a fixed attachment point largely depends on your preferred jybing method for your spinnaker. If you jybe by detaching the pole from the mast and spinnaker brace then end for ending it then yes you will need a bridle. If you use (or prefer) the dip pole jybe then you can have a fixed point of attachment and this can be closer to the forward end of the pole for better leverage. A bridle would still work for the dip pole but it's not necessary.


In my set up my topping lift attaches to a bridle but the downhaul is actually part of the spinnaker sheet/brace so the downhaul is pulling down on the very end of the pole. We use an end for end jybe but I have been contemplating changing this arrangement to a dip pole set up as it can be difficult to wrestle the pole around and get it clipped onto the mast again if there is a bit of breeze in the kite.

From your photo it looks like you could fairly easily run your downhaul from that block back to the cockpit so it could be operated from back there. Having it cleated at the mast could be a real pain as you would need to have somebody stationed there to make adjustments in response to adjustments of your pole forward and aft in response to changes in course/breeze.

Not sure about the block on the front of the mast base.
Here is my simple setup for single handed spinnaker pole controls.
8mm topping lift is fine also use wire and SS ring for bridle.

This is for simple shorthanded cruising, if racing with crew then more complex systems may be appropriate.

My boat has a wire bridle top and bottom. The only danger here is ageing, when the ends of the wire is becoming meat hooks, ripping fingers and sails and all into shreds. I seen some wonderfully simple solutions on some boats, 8-10mm double braid, bridled or end fitted. Cheap, strong easily handled, replaced, l was told. K.I.S.S.

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MatM14 said..
The choice to have a bridle or a fixed attachment point largely depends on your preferred jybing method for your spinnaker. If you jybe by detaching the pole from the mast and spinnaker brace then end for ending it then yes you will need a bridle. If you use (or prefer) the dip pole jybe then you can have a fixed point of attachment and this can be closer to the forward end of the pole for better leverage. A bridle would still work for the dip pole but it's not necessary.


In my set up my topping lift attaches to a bridle but the downhaul is actually part of the spinnaker sheet/brace so the downhaul is pulling down on the very end of the pole. We use an end for end jybe but I have been contemplating changing this arrangement to a dip pole set up as it can be difficult to wrestle the pole around and get it clipped onto the mast again if there is a bit of breeze in the kite.

From your photo it looks like you could fairly easily run your downhaul from that block back to the cockpit so it could be operated from back there. Having it cleated at the mast could be a real pain as you would need to have somebody stationed there to make adjustments in response to adjustments of your pole forward and aft in response to changes in course/breeze.

Hi Mat

From what I have read having the downhaul going back to the base of the mast means you can sheet the spinnaker in and out and alter the position of the pole without altering the downhaul

The only time I believe you have to alter it is when you are gybing the spinnaker in which case you are forward at the mast anyway

Regards Don

A bridle isn't really necessary on a boat your size Donk, you are only using it to take the weight of the pole as the spinnaker holds the pole up most of the time and there is never really any downward force on the end of the pole, I wouldn't bother going with the down haul either, a for guy is better value as you can also use it to hold the clew down in hard running conditions when she starts to roll, all you need is one of these in the middle of the pole To attach the topping lift to.

Never run a kite without a down haul ( kicker ) !!!!!!

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riverider said..
A bridle isn't really necessary on a boat your size Donk, you are only using it to take the weight of the pole as the spinnaker holds the pole up most of the time and there is never really any downward force on the end of the pole, I wouldn't bother going with the down haul either, a for guy is better value as you can also use it to hold the clew down in hard running conditions when she starts to roll, all you need is one of these in the middle of the pole To attach the topping lift to.

Hi Riveride

The boat has a spinnaker,sheets,blocks to attach to the toe rail, pole and winches so obviously someone has run a spinnaker before with what is on there

The pole has a pad eye riveted to the top centre of the pole already that I can attach the topping lift to (if I don't need a top bridle) and shackles at each end at the bottom of the pole that I assume the downhaul can attach to depending on what end of the pole is being used

There is the block mounted to the deck just in front of the mast that I assume the downhaul ran back to and a cleat at the base of the mast that I assume the downhaul was cleated off to

When you mention a fore guy what exactly do you mean ?

With what's on there and not adding any more fittings do I have everything I need to run and gybe a spinnaker and what would be the correct way to gybe the spinnaker with what I have





Regards Don

This is the sort of set up show before, but no need for the bridle on the pole, the for guy runs through a bock on the bow to hold the tack down and runs back to the cockpit, when you gibe you end for end the pole, which I reckon is easier if you are short handed, if you want to dip pole gibe you really need a lazey brace which is a bit of over kill on a boat your size , so your sheets should really be made up of 2 rope attached to 1 snap shackle the brace could be say 10 mil and the guy 8 mil.

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riverider said..
This is the sort of set up show before, but no need for the bridle on the pole, the for guy runs through a bock on the bow to hold the tack down and runs back to the cockpit, when you gibe you end for end the pole, which I reckon is easier if you are short handed, if you want to dip pole gibe you really need a lazey brace which is a bit of over kill on a boat your size , so your sheets should really be made up of 2 rope attached to 1 snap shackle the brace could be say 10 mil and the guy 8 mil.

Hi Riverider

Can the guy go to the block at the base of the mast instead of the bow and still hold the pole down

As I said before if that was the case the pole would be free to swing from the shrouds to the forestay without altering the topping lift or the guy

Regards Don

Don,

I would be inclined to trial a connection to your spinnaker pole in the center of the pole using a strop that wrapps around the pole and is held in place with a small saddle. A short length of 8mm with double fishermans knots would be fine for the strop.

Connect the kicker from this center point on the pole and bring it down to your existing block on the deck.

This will give you the best vertical pull on the pole, and allow the pole to be used end for end.

If you are like me, the chute is only used for light to medium conditions as I don't race and most of my sailing is essentially single handed.

Keep an eye on the pole for any excessive bending, particularly on reaching.

As mentioned earlier a tweeker system at the maximum point of the deck beam, where the spinnaker brace is led through a block that is controlled to a second block on the toe rail will reduce the load on the kicker enormously. This is another string in the cockpit though.

If I am on the same gybe all the way I will set the windward spinnaker brace through the block on the deck that is used for the No3 jib. This provides the same effect of holding the pole down.

If the pole looks like its going to have too much deflection, then look to put a block on the deck somewhere immediately under the center of the pole, then use a bridle system.

If you are like me, the chute is only used for light to medium conditions as I don't race and most of my sailing is essentially single handed. The center mount of the kicker on the pole is not ideal from a strength perspective, but probably not an issue for light to medium conditions.

I like to minimise the number of through deck fittings and would give this a try before boring more potential leak points into the deck to add another fitting.

Cheers

Hi Don,

All good info here. The only thing I can add now is:

Connect the Guy only at the front, avoid connecting on the middle of the pole.
Fiesta raises a good point "bend" in the pole. Front connection avoids this. If bend is a problem up-size the pole.
Also I am against drilling any new holes anywhere on my boat. Connecting the Guy at the front gives you the option to connect the block on the bow fitting simply using a shackle.
Finally the block at the front of the mast can be used as a deck organiser, pass the guy through it on the way back to the cockpit cleating arrangement.

Some one earlier on was on the money, Keep It Simple "Sailor".

Hi All
Still trying to get my head around how the spinnaker was set up on my boat

I went out to the boat today and took a couple of pics of the pole when it is connected to the ring on the mast
This is what i found
The pole is short enough to pass behind the forestay without disconnecting it from the ring
The fitting in the centre of the top of the pole seems to be to small to attach the topping lift to
One end of the pole has a shackle top end bottom
From what i can see on the boat it appears to my that it was set up as per my dodgy drawing

Any thoughts

Regards Don

I think your pole is set up for a dip pole gybe as it will clear the forestay when dipped down near the deck.

The saddle in the middle is definitely not for the topping lift. Your parrot beak release line is tied through it so that when you pull it only one beak is released.

The shackles on one end of the pole are for the up haul and down haul.

When close reaching the spinnaker pole must be long enough when horizontal, not to pass inside the forestay. You may be able to shorten the pole a little bit so the pole does not have to be dipped so far down but you need to be real careful if you are considering that.

If you want to do pole "end for end" gybes, you will have to make up bridles with a ring in the middle of each and the ends of the bridle attached to the pole ends.

The down haul should come through a turning block mounted directly under the middle of the pole when rigged horizontal or maybe slightly forward of this position to help ease pressure of the beak on the mast ring.

Does that all make sense??

Cisco.

Edit:- By the way, in the photos you have your pole up side down.

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cisco said..
I think your pole is set up for a dip pole gybe as it will clear the forestay when dipped down near the deck.

The saddle in the middle is definitely not for the topping lift. Your parrot beak release line is tied through it so that when you pull it only one beak is released.

The shackles on one end of the pole are for the up haul and down haul.

When close reaching the spinnaker pole must be long enough when horizontal, not to pass inside the forestay. You may be able to shorten the pole a little bit so the pole does not have to be dipped so far down but you need to be real careful if you are considering that.

If you want to do pole "end for end" gybes, you will have to make up bridles with a ring in the middle of each and the ends of the bridle attached to the pole ends.

The down haul should come through a turning block mounted directly under the middle of the pole when rigged horizontal or maybe slightly forward of this position to help ease pressure of the beak on the mast ring.

Does that all make sense??

Cisco.

Edit:- By the way, in the photos you have your pole up side down.

Hi Cisco

In the first photo that is the height where the end of the pole will start to overlap the forestay so when the pole is horizontal it will extend past the forestay

The dip pole method sounds ok but there is only a single control line on each side and a single block and I believe for the dip pole method to work you need a separate sheet and guy on each side so I don't really understand how they have done this on my boat

A lot of people have indicated previously the the block on the deck for the downhaul needs to be further forward from its current position but I have read on the net where others have said that theirs are at the base of the mast as well and on my boat someone has obviously been running a spinnaker with what is on there so I am a bit confused

Re the pole being upside down can you please explain why because In most of the stuff I have read it is suggested the the jaws should face upwards

Thanks for your thoughts
Regards Don

Edit:- By the way, in the photos you have your pole up side down.

Re the pole being upside down can you please explain why because In most of the stuff I have read it is suggested the the jaws should face upwards



I've been waiting for this one to come up!

Not had much to do with spinnakers as a solo sailor, but...

I have two poles, one is long in that it extends forward of the forestay, that is definitely the spinnaker pole.

The other I have will fit inside the forestay and that I use to pole out the jib when running down wind.

Question, is the length of Don's pole mean its actually for poling out the jib etc, and not a spinnaker pole?

Have a read of this if you don't already have it, you maybe can work out from the diagrams what your system is

www.seldenmast.com/files/595-560-E.pdf

Interestingly the Selden link above shows the jaws point up, just like Don has.

Edit: Further to the above, I had a google and seems there is no right or wrong way for the jaws to point.

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FreeRadical said..

Edit:- By the way, in the photos you have your pole up side down.

Re the pole being upside down can you please explain why because In most of the stuff I have read it is suggested the the jaws should face upwards



I've been waiting for this one to come up!

Yeah, righto??

I would not be so foolish as to declare the open jaws must face down. To my way of thinking if the open side faces down the pole can't fall off the sheet or mast attachment accidentally.

Loose Change has it though. It seems there is no right or wrong way up.

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FreeRadical said..

Edit:- By the way, in the photos you have your pole up side down.

Re the pole being upside down can you please explain why because In most of the stuff I have read it is suggested the the jaws should face upwards



I've been waiting for this one to come up!

Hi Free Radical

A couple of reasons listed were if the jaws face downwards and the pole for some reason goes upwards ( I guess this could happen if the downhaul failed) it would be difficult to release the pole from the mast ring without bringing the pole down

The second one listed was if the jaws face upwards when you trip the release the pole will drop away from the brace

Regards Don

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Donk107 said..

FreeRadical said..

Edit:- By the way, in the photos you have your pole up side down.

Re the pole being upside down can you please explain why because In most of the stuff I have read it is suggested the the jaws should face upwards



I've been waiting for this one to come up!

Hi Free Radical

A couple of reasons listed were if the jaws face downwards and the pole for some reason goes upwards ( I guess this could happen if the downhaul failed) it would be difficult to release the pole from the mast ring without bringing the pole down

The second one listed was if the jaws face upwards when you trip the release the pole will drop away from the brace

Regards Don

Hi there ,
FWIW, I always felt on my 15m sloop ( so I had a relatively heavy spinnaker pole and I was often short-handed) that it would be ideal to have the parrot beak facing "up" at the clew of the spinnaker/headsail so that the pole could be released more easily/quickly if needed so that it dropped "off" the sheet.
Conversely at the mast / heel track end of the pole to have the parrot beak facing "down" so that when the beak is opened the pole can be lifted off the track ring rather than suddenly drop out and take a chunk out of the deck/cabin top/wife!
Please understand that I never actually had my pole set this way....but there were times when I surely wished I had. As usual, in light weather and with no sea it doesn't really matter as either way works fine. It's the unexpected situation that gets us!
I'd be interested to hear what others might think.
Cheers
J

We have it set up so the pole will drop off the brace , it can be a hassle to lift it off .

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nswsailor said..
Not had much to do with spinnakers as a solo sailor, but...

I have two poles, one is long in that it extends forward of the forestay, that is definitely the spinnaker pole.

The other I have will fit inside the forestay and that I use to pole out the jib when running down wind.

Question, is the length of Don's pole mean its actually for poling out the jib etc, and not a spinnaker pole?

Hi nswsailor

To be honest with just my wife and I onboard I think it might be nearly as effective and a bit easier to goosewing it and pole out the number one

Regards Don

Gary Hoyt freedom yachts used a different design a little unusual but from what Ive read work ok
< go into about 2 minuets its different

Nice looking sail that # 1 Donk ! . Nice photo of the old girl shooting along !

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Donk107 said..

To be honest with just my wife and I onboard I think it might be nearly as effective and a bit easier to goosewing it and pole out the number one

Mate, when you have the opportunity to do a nice long spinnaker run (couple of hours at least), it is really worth the effort of getting the set up right and then setting it up and hooting along with a full balloon.

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SandS said..
Nice looking sail that # 1 Donk ! . Nice photo of the old girl shooting along !

Hi Sands

Yep she moves along nicely in a bit of a breeze and so far she doesn't seem to have any bad habits

Regards Don

A nice sheer line to her Don. Looks to be a stout little yacht that will serve you well.

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cisco said..
A nice sheer line to her Don. Looks to be a stout little yacht that will serve you well.

Hi Cisco

I think she is quite a nice looking design

She seems to be well built and I managed to track down the owner who bought her shortly after she was built in 1983 and this is what he had to say about her

Hi Don and Sylvia, as I said she was lying at Port Huon (coincidence)and I took deliverys at muirs who checked her over,fuelled,fitted compass which I swung at the Garrow light.She had the grp moulded interior and was otherwise pretty bare.Idid the fit out which suited our family of 4,the 2 girls I taught to sail and later Igave them a sabot.both competent helmsgirls at age 10 and 12 yo.I made the new tiller,celery,and fitted the spinnaker winches imported from Melb.Also had a no1 made,she'll make 6 knots to windward,hull speed is about 7/8 knots tho in Bass Strait races has surfed at12 knots for 22 miles.(good fun) My permanent crew and self have sailed Tamar to Devonportrace,return following day.Barenjoey, 20day island.8miles seaward and return (line honours)she"ll outsail compass 28/29s.Doven 30setc.We used 2 sail tracks,heavy and light weather,. Now I must say there is a misnomer,when people call 845s anH28.they are a Hereschoff,Khan Walker took some lines off them ,but from the waterline down the845s are totally different,deepkeel draw just under 5" the H28s are a long keel with skeg and wouldn't sail out of sight in a fog!!!!!!!!!!! Not much else to tell,very successful 2nd Div yacht ,probably 3rd in Hobart as there are more competitors.The photos show she looks to be one of the cleanest yachts Ive seen including the Yanmar which is a 15 HP high speed lightweight diesel will run to 3000 grand but is very happy at 2500 /2700.I also put the two blader on aand when racing ,fixed it vertically behind the keel.All the best will mail down some photos soon. Good Sailing Regards Dave

Regards Don