Looking for some advice off the brains trust re sailing with a spinnaker

My most recent experience with spinnakers on boats I have crewed on have run assymetrical spinnakers off a pole extending from the bow. My boat has a symmetrical spinnaker in a cruising shute. The questions I have are as follows and are only in relation to cruising not racing

1st question, can I fly a symmetrical spinnaker using a tack pennant off the bow roller on shallower angles to avoid using the pole when short handed or feeling lazy.

2nd question, when using the pole do I need to use a separate guy/brace and sheet on port and starboard (4 Lines) or can I just use the guy/brace as the sheet when on the opposite tack (2 lines). The boat came with 2 guys and 2 sheets but I don't have enough blocks to run them all at once and what is the purpose of having a lazy guy or lazy sheet anyway. Feel like I might be missing something important.

Select to expand quote

cammd said..
Looking for some advice off the brains trust re sailing with a spinnaker

My most recent experience with spinnakers on boats I have crewed on have run assymetrical spinnakers off a pole extending from the bow. My boat has a symmetrical spinnaker in a cruising shute. The questions I have are as follows and are only in relation to cruising not racing

1st question, can I fly a symmetrical spinnaker using a tack pennant off the bow roller on shallower angles to avoid using the pole when short handed or feeling lazy.

2nd question, when using the pole do I need to use a separate guy/brace and sheet on port and starboard (4 Lines) or can I just use the guy/brace as the sheet when on the opposite tack (2 lines). The boat came with 2 guys and 2 sheets but I don't have enough blocks to run them all at once and what is the purpose of having a lazy guy or lazy sheet anyway. Feel like I might be missing something important.

Imho;

For sure you can fly your symm kite using a tack pennant off the bow roller this is commonly done. Ensure you have barber haulers on the kite sheets so that the kite leech is trimmed properly. There are plenty of videos on line showing this. There is not enough video of kite flying in this one but it is a good summary of both. You can see that one of the asymm kites tacked to the bow has luff and leech lengths nearly similar.



For symm kite flying, assuming you are end for end gybing the kite pole, on a yacht your size you will need the 2 braces and 2 sheets so that the kite gybes are possible without a sumo wrestler on the foredeck. The benefit of the lazy brace to leeward (ie on the new active brace side after the gybe) when gybing is huge. Of course it takes a co-ordinated crew in the cockpit also, controlling the 2 kite sheets and 2 braces so that the tension goes on the new active brace after the pole is gybed through and pushed fwd at its outboard end and the inboard end is secure in the snotter on the mast.

Thank you r13 that all makes sense.

Select to expand quote

cammd said..
Looking for some advice off the brains trust re sailing with a spinnaker...

1st question, can I fly a symmetrical spinnaker using a tack pennant off the bow roller on shallower angles to avoid using the pole when short handed or feeling lazy.

Just keep in mind if you're going to fly it off a tack pennant that the luff length of the spinnaker is designed to be flown off a pole and so the tack pennant will have to reflect this height off the deck, it might be 6 or 7 feet long. There will also be a tendency for the tack pennant to sag to leeward because you don't have a brace to hold it to windward.

If you're short handed and are not thinking about gybing with the sail up you could consider running one of your sheets off the bow roller and the other through the normal brace blocks. This way you could hoist using the bow roller sheet and un-snuff the spinnaker. Then once you're settled you can take up the load on the brace and pole back a bit to get rid of the leeward sag. Reverse the process to drop, gybe and re-hoist.

Could you gybe the kite set on a tack pennant by running the sheet around the front/outside of the kite. on the J boat I have been crewing on we set the sheet for gybing inside the kite luff and the forestay but its on a carbon pole extending a couple of metres off the bow, with a full crew on deck and the headsail is not on a furler it's on the deck when we do it. There wouldn't be much room between my forestay and bow roller to do an "inside" gybe, I would be worried about getting it wrapped up with the forestay.

Also thinking the cruising chute would further complicated a gybe like that by getting twisted up top

Or would I be better off just dropping it or maybe just snuffing it with the chute and resetting on the new tack, only talking about cruising after all.

Sorry about the question just trying to work out the procedures in my head before going out an doing it.

Select to expand quote

cammd said..
Could you gybe the kite set on a tack pennant by running the sheet around the front/outside of the kite. on the J boat I have been crewing on we set the sheet for gybing inside the kite luff and the forestay but its on a carbon pole extending a couple of metres off the bow, with a full crew on deck and the headsail is not on a furler it's on the deck when we do it. There wouldn't be much room between my forestay and bow roller to do an "inside" gybe, I would be worried about getting it wrapped up with the forestay.

Also thinking the cruising chute would further complicated a gybe like that by getting twisted up top

Or would I be better off just dropping it or maybe just snuffing it with the chute and resetting on the new tack, only talking about cruising after all.

Sorry about the question just trying to work out the procedures in my head before going out an doing it.

HI Cammd,
If you don't have much room between your forestay and the spinnaker tack then definitely run your sheets outside. Just don't lose them under the bow.
When you're ready to gybe float the spinnaker sheet till the clew is level with your forestay before you turn, it'll flop over much easier.

Sure you can gybe with the new sheet lead outside - see here it is commonly done for the case of yachts with tack lines on the bow not the prodder 2+m out, so as to avoid the potential for forestay snag as you say. Any gybe with an asymm needs to have the new sheet hauled in very quickly to avoid a forestay wrap or luff twist. Try it first in 6-8kts and you will get the hang of it quickly. Sure snuffing it and re-setting on the new tack is a good idea - anything to avoid a wrap.



You have probably seen a symm kite chinese gybe on line - see from 3m onwards here;

Select to expand quote

shaggybaxter said..
HI Cammd,
If you don't have much room between your forestay and the spinnaker tack then definitely run your sheets outside. Just don't lose them under the bow.

Top Tip thank you

R13
Good video on the gybe broach, I had not really considered the forces the rig applies to the hull if the COE goes to windward, makes perfect sense to me it's the sames forces I use to gybe a windsurfer, that said I don't plan to be using the kite in heavy air ,would opt for goose wing instead.

Still interested to know if the cruising chute (might be incorrect terminology), if a spinnaker snuffer causes complications up top when gybing without pole ie using a tack pennant, do they have a tendency to get twisted or is there additional things to consider when using one.

Something like this helps to stop the windward clew falling off.
atninc.com/atn-tacker-sailing-equipment.shtml
Some old vids but thats what came up when I googled it!
You can see this allows you to play the height of the tackline. Letting it out and flying the tack higher gives you more room for an inside gybe.
I have done something like this many times on delivery when we are short handed so you don't need to use the pole. Even with an A sail it allows you to sail deeper.
Make sure you have plenty of sea room when playing around with things like this.
Flying a spinnaker without a pole is a good thing to learn even for experienced sailors. One of the tacticians I sailed with made us practise flying the kite with no pole. It can come in handy in a few situations when sailing deep. It allows you to gybe back and forth easily.
As for you question about gybing with a snuffer it should be fine. They should have a swivel where you attach the head. If the tackline is too tight it may not swivel, another good reason for an ease on the tackline before gybing.

Thanks for posting the vids

Love some of the options you guys have discussed above ....... but




Pole ???? whats this Spinnaker pole thinggy you guys are talking about ?????
the spinnaker moving left and right on the starboard tack line and port sheet, main is in the bag



Trust me, many races on the bow on mono's playing with poles and i dont miss it.

Good one. Obviously cats have a significant advantage in that their greater beam allows such setting without a pole - keeping the kite the correct shape without the tack and clew coming too close together hence creating a bad shape. Lake Macq flat water also a bonus.

Had Wapiti for close to a year now, yesterday was the day to find out what was the colour of the kite.

After a long motor upwind (in no wind), anchored at nice spot, had some lunch and a swim we decided to set up to have a gentle run home under a kite. Sounds pretty cool right, far out, Huey had a different plan. I was pretty busy getting set up on the bow, hoisted the kite then raised the sock, the kite filled, I looked back over a sea of white caps at the wake the rudder was leaving as it was getting dragged through the water. I asked my friend, who was on the helm, if we were good ..... the immediate response was no. Straight into a broach, I had to laugh to myself a little at the situation.
Anyway it became clear we were over powered so the next ten minutes were spent trying to get it back down, I was pretty cooked by the time we got it back on deck but better for the experience. I think the kite is to big for the boat, Wapiti is 44ft and the kite is 136m2. It seemed like it needed to be raised another couple of metres but the head was raised to the top and the foot was only just above the water, all the pressure was down low very low which I don't think helped the situation.

Going to be shopping for a smaller kite now.

RYD should have the rig drawing on file - you might have it in your documents from the previous owner. On that should be indicated the luff length of the kites recommended. Or you could scale from the dwg included at the below link.

www.radford-yacht.com/dsn053/dsn053S44.html

I will have a look, I was fortunate enough to be given the original builders plans from the previous/original owner just last week, I am sure I saw a rig and sail plan in among them.

I have read that the rule of thumb for symmetrical spinnaker sizing is Luff is equal to I and foot is 1.8 to 2 time J. so on my rig
I = 16400
J= 5050

I should be looking for a spinnaker with an approximate 16.5 mtr luff and 10.0 mtr foot ?? Does that sound about right?

I will measure my current one on the weekend to see how it compares to those numbers.

Yes agree that's about right. For example see here - I have nothing to do with Taskers.

www.rollytaskersailsaustralia.com.au/online-store/symmetrical-spinnaker

If your current one is similar to these guidelines on the foot width (or even a bit less say ~9m) but too long on the luff a sailmaker can easily shorten it on the luff length to a very reasonable result without costing an arm and a leg.

If the kite is so long on the luff the question arises how did it come to be onboard? Most original rig designs have a full size no1 symm kite of those dimensions and about 0.75oz cloth weight, and a no2 kite of about 90% of that luff length and 80% of that foot length and 1.5oz cloth - also cut narrower and flatter in the head.

The other question is could it be easily modified to an asymm kite by shortening the leech and maybe the luff if needed............depending on the head fullness the result may not be ideal but it could be a cost effective option. Realise that asymm kites now are cut so that they rotate out to windward a lot more than the earlier ones and hence run deeper. Depends what you want out of a kite.

I had my Spinnaker re cut by Ullman sails here in Wynnum, the luff was 18mtr but I guess its about 16.5 now as 1.5 was taken from the middle, got to try it out today in a light Northerly seabreeze from St Helena Isl down to Cleveland. Also tried wing on wing by poling out the Yankee whilst the pole was already out.

Select to expand quote

cammd said..
Looking for some advice off the brains trust re sailing with a spinnaker

My most recent experience with spinnakers on boats I have crewed on have run assymetrical spinnakers off a pole extending from the bow. My boat has a symmetrical spinnaker in a cruising shute. The questions I have are as follows and are only in relation to cruising not racing

1st question, can I fly a symmetrical spinnaker using a tack pennant off the bow roller on shallower angles to avoid using the pole when short handed or feeling lazy.

2nd question, when using the pole do I need to use a separate guy/brace and sheet on port and starboard (4 Lines) or can I just use the guy/brace as the sheet when on the opposite tack (2 lines). The boat came with 2 guys and 2 sheets but I don't have enough blocks to run them all at once and what is the purpose of having a lazy guy or lazy sheet anyway. Feel like I might be missing something important.

On your "feeling lazy" days when flying spinnaker leave your boom locked off and main zipped up inside the bag.
With out the main your spinnaker can catch all the wind as not blanketed and no chance of unwanted jibe
Actually you can do that on any day