Hi Guys.
I'm after some advice on a sailing dingy.
I am looking at this www.selway-fisher.com/GPDinghyover13.htm#Mar
I want it for camping on plus have a mizzen, and the company suggested this boat. However I am not sure about the sailing ability of the boat as it has the flat nose. But it will be very stable.
Any comments would be appreciated, Thanks.

You're probably going to get a lot of responses like "I have no experience with X boat, but have you considered Y boat" :-) , so here's mine...

I can't see any issue with the flat nose - it makes construction easier, increases interior space and has no impact on sailing ability of the boat. I'm not sure about the lee-board though. They seem like a PITA to move from side to side each tack and too exposed to potential damage - although they were popular with the Dutch... If using it for camping I'd be looking for some dry storage.

Have you looked at getting started in a Mirror dinghy? That is similar in design and Sandy McKinnon can attest to their use as a camping dinghy after sailing one around Greece and Italy. You could pick one of those up much cheaper and easier than building a new boat, and using it will help you work out what is really important in your next boat.

Also check out the designs from John Welsford. He has some very successful camp cruisers - many with mizzen masts.

Too small and too expensive by the time you build it. Then you will need a trailer.

Best bet is a secondhand Corsair or a Hartley 16.

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Microbe said..
You're probably going to get a lot of responses like "I have no experience with X boat, but have you considered Y boat" :-) , so here's mine...

I can't see any issue with the flat nose - it makes construction easier, increases interior space and has no impact on sailing ability of the boat. I'm not sure about the lee-board though. They seem like a PITA to move from side to side each tack and too exposed to potential damage - although they were popular with the Dutch... If using it for camping I'd be looking for some dry storage.

Have you looked at getting started in a Mirror dinghy? That is similar in design and Sandy McKinnon can attest to their use as a camping dinghy after sailing one around Greece and Italy. You could pick one of those up much cheaper and easier than building a new boat, and using it will help you work out what is really important in your next boat.

Also check out the designs from John Welsford. He has some very successful camp cruisers - many with mizzen masts.

Thanks for the response.
I was looking at a Mirror 16 but read an article on them being flimsy and most gone due to wood rot, so I passed. Maybe I should have gone for it.

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Ramona said..
Too small and too expensive by the time you build it. Then you will need a trailer.

Best bet is a secondhand Corsair or a Hartley 16.

What if I want to build one? I just finished building this strip canoe and had a great time doing so.

Hi Valo,

If you want to build one go for it don't let the doubters put you off.

I've made a Selway fisher Coble 10'6", that I'm very happy with, the plans were great, easy to follow and communication with Paul was first rate.I bought the plans, estimated my budget then added half on top but still went over. Lesson learned, and another one is that I enjoyed building "Daisy" more than sailing her!

Thats a nice looking canoe you've made and as you know from making it, building costs can be hard to budget for.
As has been mentioned you'll need a trailer and tow bar for the Skylark, a few more dollars.

It's probably easier and cheaper (if you can find one you want), to buy rather than build. But if you were me I'd say bugger it and build.

Sorry to ramble on and I know I didn't answer your original question, if you are local to Vic I'll show you my (Pauls) plans and have a chat about strip planking.

Cheers Mike.

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valo said..

Ramona said..
Too small and too expensive by the time you build it. Then you will need a trailer.

Best bet is a secondhand Corsair or a Hartley 16.

What if I want to build one? I just finished building this strip canoe and had a great time doing so.

If you want to build that's fine. I have built plenty of boats. The trick is to build a known boat plan otherwise your boat will join all the other plywood boats on Gumtree!

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Mike367 said..
Hi Valo,

If you want to build one go for it don't let the doubters put you off.

I've made a Selway fisher Coble 10'6", that I'm very happy with, the plans were great, easy to follow and communication with Paul was first rate.I bought the plans, estimated my budget then added half on top but still went over. Lesson learned, and another one is that I enjoyed building "Daisy" more than sailing her!

Thats a nice looking canoe you've made and as you know from making it, building costs can be hard to budget for.
As has been mentioned you'll need a trailer and tow bar for the Skylark, a few more dollars.

It's probably easier and cheaper (if you can find one you want), to buy rather than build. But if you were me I'd say bugger it and build.

Sorry to ramble on and I know I didn't answer your original question, if you are local to Vic I'll show you my (Pauls) plans and have a chat about strip planking.

Cheers Mike.

Thanks. Sadly I'm in central coast NSW.

So Valo, do you want to build this or do you want to sail? I love building boats but if you want a small car top cruiser a good second hand Mirror would be very hard to pass by. A few lightweight mods , a la Sandy McKinnon and you are away. If you don't know what I am talking about you MUST read The voyage of Jack de Crow by Sandy McKinnon as he rows and sails his Mirror across Europe. Very well written and a rollicking good read.

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Kankama said..
So Valo, do you want to build this or do you want to sail? I love building boats but if you want a small car top cruiser a good second hand Mirror would be very hard to pass by. A few lightweight mods , a la Sandy McKinnon and you are away. If you don't know what I am talking about you MUST read The voyage of Jack de Crow by Sandy McKinnon as he rows and sails his Mirror across Europe. Very well written and a rollicking good read.

Both. I have found a Mirror 16 that I might buy. 8hr drive though.
You are the 3rd person today to recommend that book.
Do you know Alex that sails Excalibur?

Still waiting on how a pram sails?
Anyone with experience please.

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valo said..
Still waiting on how a pram sails?
Anyone with experience please.

The nose isn't vertical, so the waves are forced downward somewhat. But the main part is that before the blunt nose, the front of the boat does curve upward. It is very infrequent that the blunt nose part would encounter a wave, or a solid wave. It'd just be some spray and breaking part. If it were to dig in and crash into the waves, you'd sit further back in the yacht.
I had a Mirror dinghy like that, at 10' 10". It makes for far easier construction.
This longboat was for sale early in January on Gumtree for $3 800 including the trailer and sails. It is far easier to buy than to build.

Hi Valo.
For information about the dinghy that you are interested in and other cruising dinghies, I would suggest that you hook up with Paul at Sailing Kate Louise.
Either he or someone in his group will be able to set you straight.
Just drop him a line it the comments section and he will surely get back to you.
gary

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valo said..

Kankama said..
So Valo, do you want to build this or do you want to sail? I love building boats but if you want a small car top cruiser a good second hand Mirror would be very hard to pass by. A few lightweight mods , a la Sandy McKinnon and you are away. If you don't know what I am talking about you MUST read The voyage of Jack de Crow by Sandy McKinnon as he rows and sails his Mirror across Europe. Very well written and a rollicking good read.

Both. I have found a Mirror 16 that I might buy. 8hr drive though.
You are the 3rd person today to recommend that book.
Do you know Alex that sails Excalibur?

I know the boat more than Alex. The last pram I sailed was a Manly Junior 45 years ago but I loved rowing my Bolger Nutshell pram. In a way, the latest Imoca and Mini Transat boats are most similar to a pram with their curved scow bows. It pushes a heap of volume forward and keeps the buttock lines and waterlines straighter, which is fast on flat water

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valo said..
Still waiting on how a pram sails?
Anyone with experience please.

Prams sail well; I've sailed Mirror, Manly Juniors, Optimists, etc. They occasionally bash the bow into waves, but that's not a huge issue; just a tradeoff for other qualities.

I have a little Selway Fisher Redstart which is very similar in dimensions to the Optimist we bought for the grandkids, but has a "normal" pointy bow rather than the pram bow of the Opti. The Redstart also has more vee in the stern sections. The Redstart is nicer to row than most prams even in flat water, which is probably down to the vee stern. It also seems less stable, which again makes sense due to the narrower waterline in the bow and stern. The Redstart loses stability more suddenly than the Optimist in my experience, but that's an inevitable tradeoff for the virtues of the finer ends.

Overall we're impressed by the Fisher design. It's got a rather unusual shape that represents a good tradeoff of qualities.

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garymalmgren said..
Hi Valo.
For information about the dinghy that you are interested in and other cruising dinghies, I would suggest that you hook up with Paul at Sailing Kate Louise.
Either he or someone in his group will be able to set you straight.
Just drop him a line it the comments section and he will surely get back to you.
gary

Thanks. Watched plenty of the videos. No Prams that I can see though.

Thanks guys.
Yep I know there are plenty of boats out there to buy and that it is easier and quicker to buy.
I have my eye on a Mirror 16 ($3,500) and a an Ian Oughtred "Gannet" ($6,500) atm. Even if I buy one I still want to build a boat just for the joy of building it. Even if it takes a few years.
I'm on most of the FB pages about dinghies and have been looking for a while, so I know what's out there. I just wanted some feedback on how a pram sails from someone that has one. It appears not many have. So maybe that says something.
Cheers.

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valo said..
It appears not many have. So maybe that says something.
Cheers.

The second most popular boat in the world, the Opti, is a pram. The most popular boat of the dinghy boomtime, the Mirror, was also a pram. That says something too!

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valo said..

Kankama said..
So Valo, do you want to build this or do you want to sail? I love building boats but if you want a small car top cruiser a good second hand Mirror would be very hard to pass by. A few lightweight mods , a la Sandy McKinnon and you are away. If you don't know what I am talking about you MUST read The voyage of Jack de Crow by Sandy McKinnon as he rows and sails his Mirror across Europe. Very well written and a rollicking good read.

You are the 3rd person today to recommend that book.

Make that 4. I have just finished it, and it is a great read, as well as being a good guide to what you could do with a Mirror, if you are really adventurous.

In my youth, I built a Mirror with my Dad and learned to sail on it. It did eventually die from rot. If you don't build your own, but buy a pre-made or used one, you might need to do some repairs, but the whole package will be cheap enough to make it worth it (see Jack de Crow). It is only plywood and fibreglass. Another advantage for a "cheap" boat is that you will not really worry about trying to get a top-quality finish, which means that "good enough" repairs will be good enough (again, see Jack de Crow). As for sailing ability, I would say pretty good in lakes and bays, and it is small enough to row, and you could fit a small motor (petrol or electric).

www.booktopia.com.au/the-unlikely-voyage-of-jack-de-crow-a-j-mackinnon/book/9781863956659.html?source=pla&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7_7HvsbdgQMV19EWBR1BuAxUEAQYASABEgIxOPD_BwE

Ok, so have a look at your Skylark line drawing, the bow transom is well clear of the drawn waterline. In flat water no issues, behaves exactly like a pointy bow that is out of the water. When the wind comes up a bit and the boat heels it is going to sit on the chine and the bow will still be out of the water. In waves you are ok if from behind or abeam but when they are on the nose ( tacking into a short chop ) you will get a lot more slap and spray. In those conditions you would need to be more active on the tiller than on a pointy bowed boat.
Don't be put off by the pram bow, they have been around for a long time and would not exist if they were no good. Think of it as a way of having more volume ( buoyancy) in the bow, good for downwind and load carying and has almost the same performance as a slightly longer pointy boat.
I sailed a mirror again in January, it was a pleasure to sail, get your for-n-aft trim right and onto a reach and you are planing in a little 10'10" dinghy!

There's more than few nice sailing pram bow dingys about from the most elegant nutshell to some of Bolgers not so elegant box boats, I have a mike Waller pipie extended aft to 3m it has a a tucked up bow transom, sails & rows well. The main issue I can pin on the pram bow as a tender is you have to fwd corners to cause scratches dings etc. Building little boats is fun. John Welsford has a few voluminous little boat designs if you haven't perused them yet

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woko said..
There's more than few nice sailing pram bow dingys about from the most elegant nutshell to some of Bolgers not so elegant box boats, I have a mike Waller pipie extended aft to 3m it has a a tucked up bow transom, sails & rows well. The main issue I can pin on the pram bow as a tender is you have to fwd corners to cause scratches dings etc. Building little boats is fun. John Welsford has a few voluminous little boat designs if you haven't perused them yet

Thanks, I'll check him out.

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Kankama said..
So Valo, do you want to build this or do you want to sail? I love building boats but if you want a small car top cruiser a good second hand Mirror would be very hard to pass by. A few lightweight mods , a la Sandy McKinnon and you are away. If you don't know what I am talking about you MUST read The voyage of Jack de Crow by Sandy McKinnon as he rows and sails his Mirror across Europe. Very well written and a rollicking good read.

You may be interested to know that Sandy has just arrived in Venice after sailing from Romania in another Mirror. He posted the whole thing on facebook (well worth reading through all his posts), but here's a brief audio summary.
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0gj3wdz?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile&fbclid=IwAR3yyS8wCa-HDD_pw_rlywglJVjSY17Ig8unFjz6m0ozbzyQ4A5D4w5KDMQ

Thanks for the link, I am a big fan

Thanks for the link, I am a big fan

Thanks again for the info.
Gives me confidence on the design I have chosen to build.
I have bought he Mirror 16. I just need to drive to Brisbane from Lake Macquarie to get it!
This Means I can sail and camp while building. Best of both worlds.

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All@Sea said..

Kankama said..
So Valo, do you want to build this or do you want to sail? I love building boats but if you want a small car top cruiser a good second hand Mirror would be very hard to pass by. A few lightweight mods , a la Sandy McKinnon and you are away. If you don't know what I am talking about you MUST read The voyage of Jack de Crow by Sandy McKinnon as he rows and sails his Mirror across Europe. Very well written and a rollicking good read.

You may be interested to know that Sandy has just arrived in Venice after sailing from Romania in another Mirror. He posted the whole thing on facebook (well worth reading through all his posts), but here's a brief audio summary.
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0gj3wdz?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile&fbclid=IwAR3yyS8wCa-HDD_pw_rlywglJVjSY17Ig8unFjz6m0ozbzyQ4A5D4w5KDMQ

What's his FB name?