I just watched the video of the boat going under the pier and .........

"MorningBird said..

Select to expand quote

HG02 said..
I think the race would have been over before he entered the harbour Id say no motor and bad skippers decision. we all learn by our mistakes

Very true HG. Experience = number of mistakes made and learnt from.
One of the first such lessons is don't go near lee shores.
I am constantly dismayed at the yachts rounding Pittwater or Sydney headlands a boat length or two off the rocks on a lee shore in a stiff breeze.
No excuses for it in my view."

What other basic, common sense rules should I know before I make that 1 mistake that could injure someone?

Thanks

Select to expand quote

BJRobinson said..
I just watched the video of the boat going under the pier and .........

"MorningBird said..

HG02 said..
I think the race would have been over before he entered the harbour Id say no motor and bad skippers decision. we all learn by our mistakes

Very true HG. Experience = number of mistakes made and learnt from.
One of the first such lessons is don't go near lee shores.
I am constantly dismayed at the yachts rounding Pittwater or Sydney headlands a boat length or two off the rocks on a lee shore in a stiff breeze.
No excuses for it in my view."

What other basic, common sense rules should I know before I make that 1 mistake that could injure someone?

Thanks

You're the skipper, you're responsible is the best advice in one sentence.
To expand on the above comments, leave yourself a lot of sea room on a lee shore. If something goes wrong you need time to react and if possible/necessary drop the pick.
If the wind is over 10 kts I try to maintain 300 metres or so off the shore/hazard. It gives me time to stuff around, most people do stuff around while they figure out what the problem is and try to do something about the problem eg a rope around the prop, and then take action to get away or stop.
Don't expect non sailing crew to know what to do. In any extremis situation they will grab the wrong rope, steer the wrong way, make incorrect throttle movements.
If in doubt, put less sail up than you think you want. A common mistake I see in summer is boats go out at 1000 with a full main and heady for the 10 kt light breeze. By 1130 the wind is a noreaster at 15-20 kts and they have too much sail up. They and the passengers are out of their depth. The boat is on its beam ends and it is too difficult for them to reduce sail.
Do everything slow time, don't rush.
Get a sailing qualification, competent crew at least. Crew with experienced skippers, usually racing but racing sailors can impart bad attitudes so spread yourself around. Do a delivery passage or two.

that video... for starters have a back up and a plan. if no motor make sure youre in control using sails. If its blowing 30 which it might just have been in that video - all the more reason to have engine ready, if no engine , then make sure the sails are ready.
If no sails carry oars. I do. Anchors, heaving to. I hate to be so critical but that video just annoys me. What on earth were they doing? Helmsman seemed to never commit to anything, losing flow under the rudder, constantly stalling the boat by moving the tiller, and just getting pushed in. Even with that little bit of badly shaped headsail they could have gotten out of that.
All of those idiots on that boat were on the lee side at a time when they should have been on the windward side.
For crying out loud, know SOMETHING about the ocean, wind and waves. In that video it seemed like none of them were really paying attention to the sea. When im racing and its windy as hell, on a 34 foot race boat im bloody ready to jump off UPWIND of the boat everytime we lose control due to spinnaker issues or something.

If you think a safety thought, don't wait, do it.

Sailing Mistakes not to make ,,, not doing these things ... I give my new passengers an OH and S briefing as I call it. I show them where the life jackets are, how to stop/start the boat and where the life rings are if someone needs to throw one. My thoughts are it might be me in the water Oh, and while under way we have a general rule no one over 0.05 so to speak. ie. No plastered crew or passengers. At anchor that's more relaxed.

Select to expand quote

BJRobinson said..
I just watched the video of the boat going under the pier and .........

"MorningBird said..

HG02 said..
I think the race would have been over before he entered the harbour Id say no motor and bad skippers decision. we all learn by our mistakes

Very true HG. Experience = number of mistakes made and learnt from.
One of the first such lessons is don't go near lee shores.
I am constantly dismayed at the yachts rounding Pittwater or Sydney headlands a boat length or two off the rocks on a lee shore in a stiff breeze.
No excuses for it in my view."

What other basic, common sense rules should I know before I make that 1 mistake that could injure someone?

Thanks

Yes, I have been crew on a very expensive yacht that the skipper takes real close to lee shores with no feeling of discomfort. I squirm and politely suggest a little more offing, but get dismissed with "oh, we can always start the engine". AARgh!

Select to expand quote

Yara said..

BJRobinson said..
I just watched the video of the boat going under the pier and .........

"MorningBird said..

HG02 said..
I think the race would have been over before he entered the harbour Id say no motor and bad skippers decision. we all learn by our mistakes

Very true HG. Experience = number of mistakes made and learnt from.
One of the first such lessons is don't go near lee shores.
I am constantly dismayed at the yachts rounding Pittwater or Sydney headlands a boat length or two off the rocks on a lee shore in a stiff breeze.
No excuses for it in my view."

What other basic, common sense rules should I know before I make that 1 mistake that could injure someone?

Thanks

Yes, I have been crew on a very expensive yacht that the skipper takes real close to lee shores with no feeling of discomfort. I squirm and politely suggest a little more offing, but get dismissed with "oh, we can always start the engine". AARgh!

I was on a cat called Bella Donna whos skipper did that to us, decent swell, lee shore, we could here the waves on the rocks and see the oysters, and the motor didn't start until multiple attempts and nearly flat battery. Sweat plus!!

I always make sure i tell people on the boat who are new to sailing to keep their head below the boom

Regards Don

Select to expand quote

Donk107 said..
I always make sure i tell people on the boat who are new to sailing to keep their head below the boom

Regards Don

Yep, probably the most common one.
And people using the main sheet as a hand hold. Ugh!

We were playing with the instrument settings on the new race boat i crew on the other day sand i asked the skipper what depth below the keel he wanted the depth alarm set at

He said the 6 inches will do

Regards Don

Select to expand quote

Donk107 said..
We were playing with the instrument settings on the new race boat i crew on the other day sand i asked the skipper what depth below the keel he wanted the depth alarm set at

He said the 6 inches will do

Regards Don

Select to expand quote

BJRobinson said..

What other basic, common sense rules should I know before I make that 1 mistake that could injure someone?

i think someone getting hit by the boom during an accidental gybe is somewhere near the top of the list. i always remind people to be wary of the boom, and to stay lower than it when possible...

What other basic, common sense rules should I know before I make that 1 mistake that could injure someone?


The warning about the boom is a constant one to remember ...

And another one is to reef and change headsails early . The old saying something like ...if you are thinking about reefing it should already be done .... Or something to that effect ......?

Don't get your self into a situation you aren't confident/comfortable of getting out of.. The bigger the risk, the greater the margin for error. In up to ~20kn breeze while racing with decent crew, and confidence in equipment, a few boat-lengths can be plenty of distance before tacking off a lee shore. The distance grows as experience lessens or weather worsens. Said video, I didn't see ho they got into the situation they ended up in. Ended badly, but calls for an engine are over the top. It looked like the skipper had little to no steerage - an engine would have helped but so woukd have a mainsail and properly trimmed jib.I wasn't there, and neither were you.

Select to expand quote

All@Sea said..
Don't get your self into a situation you aren't confident/comfortable of getting out of.. The bigger the risk, the greater the margin for error. In up to ~20kn breeze while racing with decent crew, and confidence in equipment, a few boat-lengths can be plenty of distance before tacking off a lee shore. The distance grows as experience lessens or weather worsens. Said video, I didn't see ho they got into the situation they ended up in. Ended badly, but calls for an engine are over the top. It looked like the skipper had little to no steerage - an engine would have helped but so woukd have a mainsail and properly trimmed jib.I wasn't there, and neither were you.

Experience is great and an experienced sailor can cut the margins more than a beginner.

I think the point is that they shouldn't have been there either.

I use to fly for a living and one of my favourites is "A superb pilot uses his superb judgement to avoid having to use his superb flying skills". Same for sailors.

Select to expand quote

Sectorsteve
When im racing and its windy as hell, on a 34 foot race boat im bloody ready to jump off UPWIND of the boat everytime we lose control due to spinnaker issues or something.

The last thing you need when out of control is someone in the drink.
As a skipper you have enough going on watching for other boats trying to get back under control. Making sure the crew are taking the right actions to retrieve the situation. Just what you need a crew member jumping over.

I'm always a fan of the phrase "If you are thinking about reducing sail you should have done it 10 minutes ago"

It's a lot easier to shake out a reef in a breeze than put one in.

Watch out for the boom, Also watch out for the mainsheet as well. Was called out for a medivac with VMR for a concussion. Crew member was sitting on the cockpit edge, ducked the boom but the mainsheet caught him and pushed his head into a winch.

Well, l am not suggesting to stop asking questions, far from it, but if you try learning how to sail on this or any other forum, l am afraid, that something undesirable is going to happen to you before long!

Reading a lot about sailing would help more. There are a lots of technical books out there written by professionals!
Going racing and learning from others mistakes would be a splendid way as well.

On the forums, one could air their opinions or experiences without any certain knowledge about the subject as it happens in many instances. This includes my own comments as well, which are written with goodwill and a certain amount of knowledge and experience but l am not a professional and just as fallible and prone for mistakes, misunderstandings as the next man.

The forums are good for modern social contact and exchange of experiences and theories but seldom a reliable fountain of knowledge!

The most poignant example of what l am talking about is HG's latest thread: "Samsturdy a question for you"

Select to expand quote

sirgallivant said..
Well, l am not suggesting to stop asking questions, far from it, but if you try learning how to sail on this or any other forum, l am afraid, that something undesirable is going to happen to you before long!

Reading a lot about sailing would help more. There are a lots of technical books out there written by professionals!
Going racing and learning from others mistakes would be a splendid way as well.

On the forums, one could air their opinions or experiences without any certain knowledge about the subject as it happens in many instances. This includes my own comments as well, which are written with goodwill and a certain amount of knowledge and experience but l am not a professional and just as fallible and prone for mistakes, misunderstandings as the next man.

The forums are good for modern social contact and exchange of experiences and theories but seldom a reliable fountain of knowledge!

The most poignant example of what l am talking about is HG's latest thread: "Samsturdy a question for you"

Agree with sirgallivant.
There will be those on these forums who may not have the experience or competency to be advising people. Dare say it, but there will be (are) members of this forum who are armchair warriors and, despite appearing to be competent sailors, don't really have any experience or competency to speak of.
Do a course or two, read the numerous books, go out and do it in slow time on nice days often with someone with experience.
Build up your own experiences, make a mistake or three and in a few years you will be comfortable on a boat.

Select to expand quote

MorningBird said..

I use to fly for a living and one of my favourites is "A superb pilot uses his superb judgement to avoid having to use his superb flying skills". Same for sailors.

There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots.

Select to expand quote

sirgallivant said..
Well, l am not suggesting to stop asking questions, far from it, but if you try learning how to sail on this or any other forum, l am afraid, that something undesirable is going to happen to you before long!

Reading a lot about sailing would help more. There are a lots of technical books out there written by professionals!
Going racing and learning from others mistakes would be a splendid way as well.

On the forums, one could air their opinions or experiences without any certain knowledge about the subject as it happens in many instances. This includes my own comments as well, which are written with goodwill and a certain amount of knowledge and experience but l am not a professional and just as fallible and prone for mistakes, misunderstandings as the next man.

The forums are good for modern social contact and exchange of experiences and theories but seldom a reliable fountain of knowledge!

The most poignant example of what l am talking about is HG's latest thread: "Samsturdy a question for you"

Agree with this also, I came on here last year and asked the same question as you, and I can't remember much of what was said, but I do remember every mistake I made on the water and haven't made them twice (big ones anyway).

Do a sailing course through your local club, crewing/ helming course on the SB20s will teach you a lot, if you don't want to spend the money don't be cheap, what you learn will save you money in repairs in the long run, then buy a small cheap boat and start practising, much cheaper to fix things you break on a small boat than a big one and you can still muscle the boat around if needed.

Lastly always have a back up plan, and a back up for the back up plan, spend 10mins thinking and talking through scenarios with your crew before you do something new. Things break, at the worst times, I've had it happen twice where I have pushed off from the dock on a leeward shore with rocks close by and the engine fail (snapped accelerator cable and clogged fuel filter), good prep before departure meant I had had the sails up in 10secs before I ran a ground. Another bad situation we dropped the anchor and the rode wrapped around the propeller, we were dragging anchor towards a luxury yacht in 30knot winds, in that case the engine was the back up and that was gone too, sails were ready to go though and saved me again. Alternatively I have dropped sails and stored them down below before motoring into the dock, waves were small out in the bay but the onshore wind built the waves up into large peaks close to shore, too large for my engine to slow me down once I neared the dock, in this case quickly dropping the anchor stopped the boat, swung me around and I could gently let out rode until I reached the dock and tie off, if I didn't have the anchor within reach when coming in single handed it would of gone down hill very quickly. Go through what if scenarios, build a plan, then build a back up plan.

I'm not trying to brag here about good judgement, I learnt these things the hard way, I snapped a mast, I threw an anchor over untied in a panic, I've had my outboard flick up with the prop narrowly miss my face, I've had lines snap, cleats snap, engine mounts snap, engine failures, sails tear, near misses with other yachts, stray ropes wrap around my keel, etc and I only started 12 months ago.

To me good sailing is good boat control, don't limit your thinking to its just good sail trimming. Most accidents happen when mooring or in harbours, where people think they are safe so practice the least caution but are actually at the highest risk as they are closest to obstacles, other moving boats and inconsistent wind, plan for all parts of the sail, not just the fun parts.

Select to expand quote

MorningBird said..

sirgallivant said..
Well, l am not suggesting to stop asking questions, far from it, but if you try learning how to sail on this or any other forum, l am afraid, that something undesirable is going to happen to you before long!

Reading a lot about sailing would help more. There are a lots of technical books out there written by professionals!
Going racing and learning from others mistakes would be a splendid way as well.

On the forums, one could air their opinions or experiences without any certain knowledge about the subject as it happens in many instances. This includes my own comments as well, which are written with goodwill and a certain amount of knowledge and experience but l am not a professional and just as fallible and prone for mistakes, misunderstandings as the next man.

The forums are good for modern social contact and exchange of experiences and theories but seldom a reliable fountain of knowledge!

The most poignant example of what l am talking about is HG's latest thread: "Samsturdy a question for you"

Agree with sirgallivant.
There will be those on these forums who may not have the experience or competency to be advising people. Dare say it, but there will be (are) members of this forum who are armchair warriors and, despite appearing to be competent sailors, don't really have any experience or competency to speak of.
Do a course or two, read the numerous books, go out and do it in slow time on nice days often with someone with experience.
Build up your own experiences, make a mistake or three and in a few years you will be comfortable on a boat.

I don't know If that is really that true MB, I think there is nearly always good advise given, its just that sometimes when people ask for advise, their questions are often vague and lack the detail to which the best advise can be given. Its not until a few posts are down the page and people responding to the call have asked a few questions themselves, they get a better picture and they then can give better advise. I think I have seen several cases where someone may have given bad advise, not because they are unqualified, but simply because the question was vague.
The hardest thing about giving advise on these forums is keeping the ego in check.
I too always think of sailing like flying a plane, the further you stay away from the Terra Firma the safer and possibly more relaxed you are , when you have to get near the ground,,, you must be playing your A game.

Select to expand quote

Jolene said..

MorningBird said..

sirgallivant said..
Well, l am not suggesting to stop asking questions, far from it, but if you try learning how to sail on this or any other forum, l am afraid, that something undesirable is going to happen to you before long!

Reading a lot about sailing would help more. There are a lots of technical books out there written by professionals!
Going racing and learning from others mistakes would be a splendid way as well.

On the forums, one could air their opinions or experiences without any certain knowledge about the subject as it happens in many instances. This includes my own comments as well, which are written with goodwill and a certain amount of knowledge and experience but l am not a professional and just as fallible and prone for mistakes, misunderstandings as the next man.

The forums are good for modern social contact and exchange of experiences and theories but seldom a reliable fountain of knowledge!

The most poignant example of what l am talking about is HG's latest thread: "Samsturdy a question for you"

Agree with sirgallivant.
There will be those on these forums who may not have the experience or competency to be advising people. Dare say it, but there will be (are) members of this forum who are armchair warriors and, despite appearing to be competent sailors, don't really have any experience or competency to speak of.
Do a course or two, read the numerous books, go out and do it in slow time on nice days often with someone with experience.
Build up your own experiences, make a mistake or three and in a few years you will be comfortable on a boat.

I don't know If that is really that true MB, I think there is nearly always good advise given, its just that sometimes when people ask for advise, their questions are often vague and lack the detail to which the best advise can be given. Its not until a few posts are down the page and people responding to the call have asked a few questions themselves, they get a better picture and they then can give better advise. I think I have seen several cases where someone may have given bad advise, not because they are unqualified, but simply because the question was vague.
The hardest thing about giving advise on these forums is keeping the ego in check.
I too always think of sailing like flying a plane, the further you stay away from the Terra Firma the safer and possibly more relaxed you are , when you have to get near the ground,,, you must be playing your A game.

I don't disagree Jolene but just indicating caution is warranted when getting advice from anonymous contributors.

It is not unusual for such forums to include the 'armchair warriors" and the occasional people living a fantasy in anonymous online forums. A bit like men who have never served pretending to be war veterans and wearing medals on ANZAC Day.

I have met and sailed with quite a few Seabreezers over the years and have personal experience of Seabreezers who aren't the sailors they present as on here. I have also sailed with Seabreezers who are much more than they appear on here.

In my opinion Seabreeze is a general forum for ideas and interest. I have found it very valuable in this capacity, the vast majority have a great deal to both contribute and take.

Thanks for the responses.

What Jolene has mentioned above is more like what I was after.
The things you have learnt from your sailing that don't learn in a course.

I would also like to explain "myself"
Better.
I did my competent crew over 10 years ago out of Belmont.
My first sail after that was on an Adams 10 racing boat with no safety rails, racing on a Wednesday avo out of LMYC. It was blowing so hard most yachts pulled out. I hung onto the toerail so hard my fingers were cramping up. I was hooked!

I have since crewed for a mate on and off for a few years. We even won the police games sailing out of Toronto one year.

So I'm not as green as I might seem.
I don't believe many, if any of the questions I have asked concern "how to sail" but more about my boat and things you don't learn in courses. Like the different ways of tying the jib sheets.

Owning my own boat is different to crewing. Hence the questions.

I also think I am intelligent enough to sort through the responses and take notice of the better ones.
This is not my first time on a forum. I've been using them on and off for many years now for different interests and business.

Cheers

Yes, l thought so BJR.

I am sure Jolene's 'neither here nor there' answer is going to lie well with you.

The fact is, if one is trying to learn to fly or sail (or drive a truck or motorbike or car) on a social forum one must hurt himself and or others before long.
And there is no two ways about it, like it or not. Period.

So I guess that is one of the biggest sailing mistakes you cam make - blindly take on board other peoples advise.

Sailing downwind on to your mooring (It seemed like a good idea at the time)

Regards Don

Its like many things in life, you need to exercise common sense. Obviously there are comments made here that are complete rubbish, but overwhelmingly I've found the info to be helpful. Many times there is no "right" answer, its up to the individual to look through the options available and make the decision that fits best.
This might upset a few people but, Sailing is not rocket science! Common sense, preparation and the ability to think a problem through will take you a long way.
Its actually never been easier, all the information is out there its just up to you to filter out what does and doesn't work for you.

Select to expand quote

Dexport said..
Its like many things in life, you need to exercise common sense. Obviously there are comments made here that are complete rubbish, but overwhelmingly I've found the info to be helpful. Many times there is no "right" answer, its up to the individual to look through the options available and make the decision that fits best.
This might upset a few people but, Sailing is not rocket science! Common sense, preparation and the ability to think a problem through will take you a long way.
Its actually never been easier, all the information is out there its just up to you to filter out what does and doesn't work for you.

Well said!

Had my first lesson yesterday.
I was tied up against a mates boat.
It was time to go. We, my 14yr old son and I, jumped on board, raised the main, left the main sheet loose and was just about to start the motor, 5hp outboard, with my son on the tiller, looked up and my mate had thrown the ropes off already. He yelled for us to sail off if we wanted. Too late! Had no choice now. But we were being blown back towards another anchored boat, instead of sailing forward. I sheeted on the main. Still no good. So panick set in. I stupidly raised the Genoa thinking it would get us moving forward. Bad move. A gust came from off the island we were near and. It shot the front of the boat around and sent us straight for my mates boat. Nice scrape down the side of his boat!
Lesson from this is let your mate know you are motoring off!
He knew I was nervous about rafting up to him.
Costly lesson for me!