Hello tigers,

what is the safe wind speed to go out? On Sunday I was flying with Genoa only. I was just too scared to put a main up. I just can not control my boat when wind speed is more than 20 knots with main and Genoa. Last time I almost capsized the boat, window broke and the boat was full of water. Not fun at all. Everything more than 15 knots of wind is nothing that struggling for me. Party boats are everywhere, wind can gave so much pressure all of the sudden that my Tasman gets almost vertical with a Genoa only. With both sails up I am in the trouble... it feels that is too much power and I am feeling hopeless..
Sunday was a horrible day, windy, boats everywhere, concert in the middle of Cackatoo Island....

I am not scared because it is almost impossible to capsize my Tasmsn 26 but it is far from enjoyable and relaxing time far from my wife and kids.

What is your experience? Is 17 to 20 knots of wind with sudden gusts of 25 knots also too much for you guys when sailing buy yourselves with both sails up or I must learn how to adapt?

Honesty both sails up on that wind speed is pretty hard to control buy myself.

What is your experience? If you guys are ok with that wind speed, and you can handle both sails, can we meet and practice around the harbour?

I am scared to run both sails under that pressure, very hard to make a turn about when boat is 40 degree inclined. Maybe my boat is not big enough to handle that wind speed with both sails. In description it says that a Tasman 26 is an off shore racer. I wouldn't go far in the open ocean with the boat sails up for sure. How some people can even run main and spineker on this boat under the strong wind?

I feel that I am taking big steps too fast and putting myself and others in danger. When racing with others on 30 foot boat, everything is different. By myself on my Tasman is completely another story. Very enjoyable when wind is under 10 knots but when that doubles windows are flying all around harbour and pump is pumping water from the middle of the boat ??????????. I must admit I never raced with a crew on 25 knots of wind.

My biggest problem is how to put the main sail down under the strong wind and hold the tiller while Genoa is full of wind... crazy, guys how you do that by yourselves?

Will I ever get to Japan with my Tasman is a big question!

Any opinions and suggestions are welcome.

Thank you for your patience and help.

Serb.

Hi Serb
There is a sailing strategy called reefing.
You must learn, practice and be confident with this.
Also a genoa is the largest foresail, You should furl it to a smaller size if you have a furler or if no furler, change down to a smaller headsail.
All of these should be done BEFORE the wind becomes too strong.
If you are leaving on a windy day, leave with a small headsail and a reef or two in the main.

My biggest problem is how to put the main sail down under the strong wind and hold the tiller while Genoa is full of wind... crazy, guys how you do that by yourselves?

The answer is to heave to and then reef. You also must learn practice and become confident with heaving to.

Th strongest (provable) wind that I have been in is 47 knots
15 to 20 knots is pretty standard here. However I reef and furl to suit the conditions.

Thank you

Hi Serb,
Gary summed it up pretty succinctly mate, you need less sail area.
In light to medium airs I could carry my full sailplan area of 100m2. The main with no reefs was 50m2 and the genoa (oversized jib) was 50m2.
In heavier air days I would leave the genoa furled up and hoist the staysail. The staysail was 17m2, 1/3rd the sail area of the genoa.
The staysail is not only shorter in height but a lot closer to the mast than the genoa. So not only was there less area, the centre of power was lower down and closer to the middle of the boat. Much more stable and much less heel.
If the wind continued to increase, we would put a reef in the main. With the first reef in, the sail area dropped to 42 m2. So now, instead of 100m2, my total sail area is 42+17 = 59m2. MUCH easier.
Just like the staysail, reefing your main helps lower the centre of pressure and bring it closer in to the mast, making the boat much more stable.
If you are new to all this and putting a reef in seems scary, do it at the dock before you leave.
None of us Serb can make a boat not heel and be overpowered without reducing sail area. Don't feel bad mate, we've all been there, its just a matter of working out how best you can reduce the amount of sail you're presenting to the wind.

Just an afterthought, if you do find yourself over powered and youre not able to reduce sail, get as much on the cunningham and outhaul as you can. Its sounds all backwards , but you want your mainsail as flat as a board, not nice and bellied and round.
By increasing tension on your cunningham, you bring the draft of the main forward. The centre of power of the mainsail moves toward the mast.
By increasing tension on your outhaul, you are flattening the main and making it less rounded, which is less aerodynamically efficient.
The above makes a surprising amount of difference, give it a try one day. You will be able to see the draft of the mainsail move forward.

If you imagine a giant reaching out and pushing on your main. You don't want him pushing on the middle/back of the main and at right angles, it will round up the boat and make it heel. If you get our helpful giant to push on the front of the main and at a slight angle forwards, the boat wont round up as much or heel anywhere near as far. And the boat goes forward, not sideways.
Make sense?

Hi Serb,

Gary and Shaggy are right. The key to enjoyable and safe sailing in stronger winds is the ability to reef the main sail, to partially furl the headsail, or change to a smaller headsail if using a hanked on sail, and to control the sail shape. Kinora is completely controllable and reasonably comfortable in 25 to 30 knots with 2 reefs in the main and 1/3 of the headsail out of the furler (mark the headsail sheets or furling line so you know where the headsail reefing points are). I find it helps to have the reefing lines come back to clutches and winches on the cabin roof so that the main sail can be reefed from the cockpit but this is a personal thing, see the many posts on reefing in this forum.

Heaving to is just magical!

The direction you're sailing also makes a big difference. If you're close hauled, beating at 6 knots into a 25 knot wind then the apparent wind speed, the wind the sails (reefed of course!) are experiencing, is around 30 knots and things will be lively. Downwind at 6 knots in a 25 knot wind, the apparent wind is only 19 knots and things will be much more pleasant. IIRC, the force on the sails is roughly proportional to the square of the wind speed so the force on the boat at 30 knots is more than twice that at 19 knots.

I found Tom Cunliffe's book "The Complete Yachtmaster" (about $45 from online stores) to be very helpful and highly recommend it. It has a wealth of basic information on all aspects of sailing, including reefing and handling the boat in heavy weather.

And from personal experience. Practise reefing and heaving to while in your berth or on your mooring in calm conditions until it becomes instinctive. Then practise while sailing in light winds, graduate to moderate conditions when it all works smoothly and only then go out in strong winds. Do this on your own or with an experienced sailor at first, don't risk putting your family off sailing forever by having them aboard when the boat is not completely under control.

Keep going, Serb. Remember that you start out sailing with 2 buckets, one for luck and the other for experience. The trick is to fill up your experience bucket before the luck bucket is empty.

Cheers,
Kinora

How reefs does your mainsail have? Next time you go sailing if you don't think there will be very light wind all day put the mainsail up already on the third reef or if you only have two reefs then the second reef. Spend a few months sailing around like that. Also don't forget that in Sydney the north easterly winds normally get stronger in the afternoon plus if wind are predicted to turn from Noreaster to Southerly the Southerly can be much stronger ("Southerly buster"). Always look at the weather forecast before you go but sometimes of course it is wrong.
Also figure out if you have a smaller head sail like a jib rather than a Genoa or if you have a Genoa figure out how it reefs. If it is roller furling then don't unfurl it all the way or if it is a hank on sail you might find a row of eyes up from the bottom of the sail so you can attach the jib sheet higher up and put little lropes through the middle holes so that the sail can be held with the bottom rolled up stop good luck:-). The front bottom of the sale is then attached hire-up so that when it is fully raised it does not raise up as far. You will get there. People have sailed around the world in boats that size.

Serb, . If you have not by this stage read enough articles of weather forecasting and sailing a masthead boat and trimming of such in varoius wind speeds to know as a solo sailor you dont hoist a genoa in predicted winds of over 15 knots ,frankly 10 is tops on a beat, more reading and less sailing is needed.
Being a masthead rig the worse set up is genoa alone in anything over pleasant winds. I am assuming when you say genoa you mean a number one or two. Small masthead yachts in a wind need two sails up for balance eg. Jib (no.3) and reefable main . The headsail on a masthead rig is the power sail and you now know if the headsail is oversize for the wind speed the boat will be uncontrollable . If one sail only is preferred I would opt. for a reefed main which will give some control in the gusts. I'm not sure how others do it but for me as a solo I always motor straight into the wind with the tiller centred with a bungey cord and raise the main , release the topping lift and bear away. Then I trim the main . Then I turn off the motor . The headsail can be raised at your leisure last.
To drop the sails I do the same but headsail first using a downhaul so it drops straight onto foredeck ,and pull on both sheets so it stays there .

All great advice for you serb.

Learn your normal sailing area's wind patterns (especially the regular changes)
Check the forecast before you go, and again regularly during the day for updates if it's blowy
Practice reefing
Practice heaving to
Baby steps, repeat, repeat, repeat
And of course wear your pfd, clip your tether on, eat your vegies etc etc

In a very short time, you'll be dispensing wise advice like all us geniuses, every one of whom can clearly remember his own early stuff-ups and fear.

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wongaga said..
All great advice for you serb.

Learn your normal sailing area's wind patterns (especially the regular changes)
Check the forecast before you go, and again regularly during the day for updates if it's blowy
Practice reefing
Practice heaving to
Baby steps, repeat, repeat, repeat
And of course wear your pfd, clip your tether on, eat your vegies etc etc

In a very short time, you'll be dispensing wise advice like all us geniuses, every one of whom can clearly remember his own early stuff-ups and fear.

+1 I still cringe when I remember the senseless flogging of sails, boat, kids and self inflicted by my ignorance.

The first time me and the missus took our boat out and tried to raise sail, two things happened:

1. I didn't realise what a mast gate did. Until I heaved on the halyard, only to watch all the slugs spill out and the mainsail billow in the breeze back over the cockpit.
2. When I yelled out "go to port", the missus pushed the tiller to port.......

You can guess the rest, including discussions of divorce proceedings.......

Be of good cheer serb, you're not alone.

Below is a short video when we had 40-50 knots when crossing the Great Australian Bight in November. Had the staysail and about 2/3 of the in-mast furling main out. Boat felt fine, reminding me of surfing on my longboard :). As other have said, need to get comfortable with reefing and / or using a smaller jib.
Ilenart

A flattened mainsail is far more controllable than a headsail, practice sailing more with the mainsail controls and use the headsail gradually for 2nd gear.

Also remember that the breeze at your particular mooring location and out through 'Humbug' is rarely a true indication of the breeze out on the Parramatta River and up the Harbour. Read everything above and when you're done, read it again and again, then follow all the good advice shared with you - especially the reading the books. Sailing for 2hrs a week on a race boat that is so different from your Tasman will only help you when you understand WHY sail area & trim is adjusted. As you said, being 1of6 directed crew is very, very different from going out solo(or just with family) when it's up to you to make all the decisions and do all the work! Plan every trip, however small, and understand the weather changes. Onwards and upwards D.

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Serb1980 said..

On Sunday I was flying with Genoa only. I was just too scared to put a main up. I just can not control my boat when wind speed is more than 20 knots with main and Genoa. Last time I almost capsized the boat, window broke and the boat was full of water.

Serb, I have only just skimmed through the replies above, but what you have experienced is weather helm. With my 150% Genny, I start to experience weather helm at 15-17 kts and I just simply can't steer the boat to windward. The 'fix' is what has already been excellently described about re reefing.

Believe it or not, you will likely improve performance even with the reduced sail.

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Serb1980 said..

I feel that I am taking big steps too fast and putting myself and others in danger.

A well spotted self critique. Slow it down and take smaller steps. You don't want to scare yourself out of the sport and unless you really what to be a solo sailor, you don't what to scare your friends and family.

And if your sails are old and stretched (as they most likely are) they will make things harder and cause more weather helm.

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Toph said..


With my 150% Genny, I start to experience weather helm at 15-17 kts and I just simply can't steer the boat to windward.

Wow, that's unusual. What boat? Are you luffing gradually as the gusts hit, or trying to hold the boat at 45 degrees true and then wiping out when the heel gets excessive?

This is a headsails/kites windspeed and angles chart.
The orange is the genoa, green is the staysail.
So when I'm close hauled I should change down from the genoa to the staysail by 20knots TWS. Less if I'm solo.


This is for a fractional rig, wide beam, 10' draft and 2000 kgs in the keel.
So even though each boat will look different to the above, generally speaking the Tasman is actually doing pretty good holding full sails at 15 knots. Not surprised 20 is overpowered.

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Chris 249 said...

Wow, that's unusual. What boat? Are you luffing gradually as the gusts hit, or trying to hold the boat at 45 degrees true and then wiping out when the heel gets excessive?

Hey Chris, I have a Beneteau 473.

Sorry, my post may of been a little misleading. Im not loosing steerage or luffing up at 15kts, but the effect of weather helm starts to make an appearance. Also, as wongaga said, my genny is old and baggy

But I'm already over due for reefing at 20kts. But I do have 3 reefs and the first reef is not much of a reduction (not exactly sure by how much).

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Toph said..

Chris 249 said...

Wow, that's unusual. What boat? Are you luffing gradually as the gusts hit, or trying to hold the boat at 45 degrees true and then wiping out when the heel gets excessive?

Hey Chris, I have a Beneteau 473.

Sorry, my post may of been a little misleading. Im not loosing steerage or luffing up at 15kts, but the effect of weather helm starts to make an appearance. Also, as wongaga said, my genny is old and baggy

But I'm already over due for reefing at 20kts. But I do have 3 reefs and the first reef is not much of a reduction (not exactly sure by how much).

Ahh, OK. A bit of weather helm with a baggy headsail on a masthead rig is understandable.

With apologies to serb for a bit of a thread hijack, but it is somewhat relevant to his situation.......

When I replaced the baggy old genoa on my Compass 28 I was astounded by the reduction in weather helm. I had thought that, what with it being mostly forward of the mast, it wouldn't make that much difference, but it sailed like a completely different boat.

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wongaga said..
With apologies to serb for a bit of a thread hijack, but it is somewhat relevant to his situation.......

When I replaced the baggy old genoa on my Compass 28 I was astounded by the reduction in weather helm. I had thought that, what with it being mostly forward of the mast, it wouldn't make that much difference, but it sailed like a completely different boat.

+1. It's only when you fit new sails that you realise what a difference they make to pointing, power and control.

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Bushdog said..

wongaga said..
With apologies to serb for a bit of a thread hijack, but it is somewhat relevant to his situation.......

When I replaced the baggy old genoa on my Compass 28 I was astounded by the reduction in weather helm. I had thought that, what with it being mostly forward of the mast, it wouldn't make that much difference, but it sailed like a completely different boat.

+1. It's only when you fit new sails that you realise what a difference they make to pointing, power and control.

Once on a very light air race I was tacking up a narrow-ish channel with a No. 1 light that was aged enough to start to go off a bit.
My crew spent the whole time subtly (not) suggesting we swap down to a brand new No.2 I had on board.
I wanted to stay with the No. 1 as it was a big deck sweeper and the wind was really light, around 5 knots. I thought it would be nuts to drop the sail area down that much.
Halfway through I gave in and let the crew do it. Yep, It pointed higher, sailed faster and felt better all round. Even with a number 2 outside its wind range.
Grrrrr.....
I spent the rest of that race copping sooo much grief from the crew.

Being the exact opposite of good sailor I've found joining a club and also paying for tuition a great step forward in learning and improving. It's particularly useful if you can be instructed in your own boat so as to maximise the experience.
Just my 5c

Thanks guys...

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shaggybaxter said..

Bushdog said..

wongaga said..
With apologies to serb for a bit of a thread hijack, but it is somewhat relevant to his situation.......

When I replaced the baggy old genoa on my Compass 28 I was astounded by the reduction in weather helm. I had thought that, what with it being mostly forward of the mast, it wouldn't make that much difference, but it sailed like a completely different boat.

+1. It's only when you fit new sails that you realise what a difference they make to pointing, power and control.

Once on a very light air race I was tacking up a narrow-ish channel with a No. 1 light that was aged enough to start to go off a bit.
My crew spent the whole time subtly (not) suggesting we swap down to a brand new No.2 I had on board.
I wanted to stay with the No. 1 as it was a big deck sweeper and the wind was really light, around 5 knots. I thought it would be nuts to drop the sail area down that much.
Halfway through I gave in and let the crew do it. Yep, It pointed higher, sailed faster and felt better all round. Even with a number 2 outside its wind range.
Grrrrr.....
I spent the rest of that race copping sooo much grief from the crew.

Good result Shaggy My experience of that was we were winning a race heading down wind to the finish line goose winging. My crew nagged and nagged let's put up spinnaker. I didn't want to because I could see the boats behind while slowly gaining couldn't catch us. But I relented. Shortly later the spinnaker went over the bow and wrapped around the keel and the whole fleet sailed past. It's the only time I ever said under my breath for f#$$_ks sake!!