So what has your boat got? Me, I'm not sure but I think HCS. Edit : na raked.
Got to reading about bows somehow and found it interesting that
none of above are new ideas and each has its own advantages although there is much argument on other sites about such ,the practicalities and the aesthetics of each.
I rather like the aggressive look of the narrow slab side plumb bow boats ,especially 30 feet and under yet some people say these would not be safe offshore as they are designed to progress through waves not over . Reverse sheer such as on modern cats look wrong .
Is a plumb bow a wetter ,better boat ?

Plumb stem, reverse sheer deckline.

They used to use reverse sheer bow on ships that served as gun platforms, apparently reverse sheer gives a calmer action?? The negative being a very wet deck in return.
For my personal choice put me down with Gravy.
Except for J-boats. That's gotta be the sexiest bow afloat.
BB, I think plumb bow is fine for offshore. I think how fine the entry, and how much volume there is, in a plumb bow that seems to have a lot to do with its offshore manners. I have a very dry deck offshore and we're pretty plumb. The previous version was a lot finer entry and less volume, it was just as fast (faster upwind) but had a really wet deck.

Gotta agree re the j-boats. The new designs a-la Gravy 7 s look all business. Kind of like the modern car v those of the 50/60s which had personality.

All bow shapes can have their place... reverse bows (love or loath aesthetically) especially on multis are all about getting buoyancy down low -form follows function. Personally I prefer a plumb bow in most cases, and find the Bristol Cutter look more attractive than a J, but still love some meter boat designs as far as classics go - but there is a lot more than just the bow involved. Bow, sheer, cabin, transom, rig... get one wrong and the whole lot can be ruined. On a modern racing mono there's nothing to be gained from a raked bow, but on a cruiser they may be a little drier on deck, but more importantly the anchor chain will clear the hull easily without the need for an extended bow roller...

I only wanted to write a sentence or so, so I'd better stop here before I spend all day at the computer!

I wonder if the bluff bow will ever com back into fashion.
Plenty of buoyancy up forward.
Gary

Bow shape is a result of the flare of the hulls sides. You don't even have to draw a bow in a design - it should come out of fair waterlines and buttocks from further aft.

Flared straight sides produce IOR bows. Vertical straight sides produce plumb bows, curved flared sides produce spoon bows. File waterlines down low and wide ones up high produce clipper bows. Low immersed volume and inverted flare produces reverse bows. When I built a trimaran, we produced the bow and stern shape of the floats by bunging on some block foam and running a fairing board over the hull. The bow shape came up as we faired the hull. You should not ever bung a bow shape on a boat, it is a derivative of the hull shape in the forward sections.

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garymalmgren said..
I wonder if the bluff bow will ever com back into fashion.
Plenty of buoyancy up forward.
Gary

To verify that question just check out the current crop of Mini Transat boats, admittedly they are foilers but they aren't on the foils all the time.



Plus of course they are planing hulls rather than displacement.

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garymalmgren said..
I wonder if the bluff bow will ever com back into fashion.
Plenty of buoyancy up forward.
Gary

You might be onto something Gary. The Mini's are one of those most innovative classes in sailing, and a scow bow mini won the Transat back in 2011. Since then their love affair with the scow bow seems to have continued.
Speaking with the owner of Pogo Structures one day, he mentioned he would prefer scow bows on all his cruiser and racer models, but the aesthetics are too radical for most customers.
Hopefully that changes, they have a lot going for them.


Edit: Ha! LooseChange beat me to it, apologies for the double up!

Select to expand quote

shaggybaxter said..

garymalmgren said..
I wonder if the bluff bow will ever com back into fashion.
Plenty of buoyancy up forward.
Gary

You might be onto something Gary. The Mini's are one of those most innovative classes in sailing, and a scow bow mini won the Transat back in 2011. Since then their love affair with the scow bow seems to have continued.
Speaking with the owner of Pogo Structures one day, he mentioned he would prefer scow bows on all his cruiser and racer models, but the aesthetics are too radical for most customers.
Hopefully that changes, they have a lot going for them.


Edit: Ha! LooseChange beat me to it, apologies for the double up!

Select to expand quote

shaggybaxter said..

garymalmgren said..
I wonder if the bluff bow will ever com back into fashion.
Plenty of buoyancy up forward.
Gary

You might be onto something Gary. The Mini's are one of those most innovative classes in sailing, and a scow bow mini won the Transat back in 2011. Since then their love affair with the scow bow seems to have continued.
Speaking with the owner of Pogo Structures one day, he mentioned he would prefer scow bows on all his cruiser and racer models, but the aesthetics are too radical for most customers.
Hopefully that changes, they have a lot going for them.


Edit: Ha! LooseChange beat me to it, apologies for the double up!

Where's the starboard foil in this shot?

speaking of fashion, is the dreadnaught bow going to go by the wayside in a few years?
With the help of photoshop, I admit to toying with the idea.

Select to expand quote

2bish said..

shaggybaxter said..

garymalmgren said..
I wonder if the bluff bow will ever com back into fashion.
Plenty of buoyancy up forward.
Gary

You might be onto something Gary. The Mini's are one of those most innovative classes in sailing, and a scow bow mini won the Transat back in 2011. Since then their love affair with the scow bow seems to have continued.
Speaking with the owner of Pogo Structures one day, he mentioned he would prefer scow bows on all his cruiser and racer models, but the aesthetics are too radical for most customers.
Hopefully that changes, they have a lot going for them.


Edit: Ha! LooseChange beat me to it, apologies for the double up!

shaggybaxter said..

garymalmgren said..
I wonder if the bluff bow will ever com back into fashion.
Plenty of buoyancy up forward.
Gary

You might be onto something Gary. The Mini's are one of those most innovative classes in sailing, and a scow bow mini won the Transat back in 2011. Since then their love affair with the scow bow seems to have continued.
Speaking with the owner of Pogo Structures one day, he mentioned he would prefer scow bows on all his cruiser and racer models, but the aesthetics are too radical for most customers.
Hopefully that changes, they have a lot going for them.


Edit: Ha! LooseChange beat me to it, apologies for the double up!

Where's the starboard foil in this shot?

No idea mate. You can see the slot about 6 rows down in front of the ahem...keel. On the promo video it looks like they had cut part of the deck away, the foil look enormous. So could be just a promo shoot?

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crustysailor said..
speaking of fashion, is the dreadnaught bow going to go by the wayside in a few years?
With the help of photoshop, I admit to toying with the idea.

Hi Crust,y
I think what Kankama said sums it up for me, it's a function of the shape of the hull near'ish the beam. Tumblehome means reverse rake at the bow, so the question might be would they stop designing hulls with tumblehome?
I've often wondered why cat designs seem to have more tumblehome, am pretty clueless here. Is it something to do with needing maximum buoyancy early?

Scow V traditional bow.
The scow is is here . The future ?
interestingsailboats.blogspot.com/2018/12/revolution-29-mini-voyage-boat.html

Wow. I had NO IDEA.
I posted the photo of Endevour as a joke.
The French really seem be ahead as far as building with new concepts
Thanks for bringing me into the 21st century.

gary

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shaggybaxter said..

crustysailor said..
speaking of fashion, is the dreadnaught bow going to go by the wayside in a few years?
With the help of photoshop, I admit to toying with the idea.

Is it something to do with needing maximum buoyancy early?

In short, yes. Maximum buoyancy and WL, Minimum weight and windage.

Select to expand quote

2bish said..

shaggybaxter said..

garymalmgren said..
I wonder if the bluff bow will ever com back into fashion.
Plenty of buoyancy up forward.
Gary

You might be onto something Gary. The Mini's are one of those most innovative classes in sailing, and a scow bow mini won the Transat back in 2011. Since then their love affair with the scow bow seems to have continued.
Speaking with the owner of Pogo Structures one day, he mentioned he would prefer scow bows on all his cruiser and racer models, but the aesthetics are too radical for most customers.
Hopefully that changes, they have a lot going for them.


Edit: Ha! LooseChange beat me to it, apologies for the double up!

shaggybaxter said..

garymalmgren said..
I wonder if the bluff bow will ever com back into fashion.
Plenty of buoyancy up forward.
Gary

You might be onto something Gary. The Mini's are one of those most innovative classes in sailing, and a scow bow mini won the Transat back in 2011. Since then their love affair with the scow bow seems to have continued.
Speaking with the owner of Pogo Structures one day, he mentioned he would prefer scow bows on all his cruiser and racer models, but the aesthetics are too radical for most customers.
Hopefully that changes, they have a lot going for them.


Edit: Ha! LooseChange beat me to it, apologies for the double up!

Where's the starboard foil in this shot?

SEAir is a modified non-foiling scow, and is only being used with one foil as a proof of concept... though I haven't seen much progress. You'll notice that the empty foil case has a narrower chord, pretty sure it still only houses a "traditional" vertical foil.

the foiling idea is already creating a new class in racing . a dude in perth has been foiling a laser and has decimated the fleet because the boat is legal ........they had to create anther class for him once another foiler turned up to get the old boats back racing again

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All@Sea said..

2bish said..

shaggybaxter said..

garymalmgren said..
I wonder if the bluff bow will ever com back into fashion.
Plenty of buoyancy up forward.
Gary

You might be onto something Gary. The Mini's are one of those most innovative classes in sailing, and a scow bow mini won the Transat back in 2011. Since then their love affair with the scow bow seems to have continued.
Speaking with the owner of Pogo Structures one day, he mentioned he would prefer scow bows on all his cruiser and racer models, but the aesthetics are too radical for most customers.
Hopefully that changes, they have a lot going for them.


Edit: Ha! LooseChange beat me to it, apologies for the double up!

shaggybaxter said..

garymalmgren said..
I wonder if the bluff bow will ever com back into fashion.
Plenty of buoyancy up forward.
Gary

You might be onto something Gary. The Mini's are one of those most innovative classes in sailing, and a scow bow mini won the Transat back in 2011. Since then their love affair with the scow bow seems to have continued.
Speaking with the owner of Pogo Structures one day, he mentioned he would prefer scow bows on all his cruiser and racer models, but the aesthetics are too radical for most customers.
Hopefully that changes, they have a lot going for them.


Edit: Ha! LooseChange beat me to it, apologies for the double up!

Where's the starboard foil in this shot?

SEAir is a modified non-foiling scow, and is only being used with one foil as a proof of concept... though I haven't seen much progress. You'll notice that the empty foil case has a narrower chord, pretty sure it still only houses a "traditional" vertical foil.

Thanks All@Sea, that all makes sense now!

Select to expand quote

SandS said..
the foiling idea is already creating a new class in racing . a dude in perth has been foiling a laser and has decimated the fleet because the boat is legal ........they had to create anther class for him once another foiler turned up to get the old boats back racing again

Sorry, what??
As an ex-Laser dealer, there is no way in hell any foil not made by laser is legal in an official Laser class race!!
Geez, you're not even allowed to taper any rope on a Laser!!

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All@Sea said..
All bow shapes can have their place... reverse bows (love or loath aesthetically) especially on multis are all about getting buoyancy down low -form follows function. Personally I prefer a plumb bow in most cases, and find the Bristol Cutter look more attractive than a J, but still love some meter boat designs as far as classics go - but there is a lot more than just the bow involved. Bow, sheer, cabin, transom, rig... get one wrong and the whole lot can be ruined. On a modern racing mono there's nothing to be gained from a raked bow, but on a cruiser they may be a little drier on deck, but more importantly the anchor chain will clear the hull easily without the need for an extended bow roller...

I only wanted to write a sentence or so, so I'd better stop here before I spend all day at the computer!

On the other hand, in some ways one wonders how much is gained with a plumb bow on a racer/cruiser. As you mention, the plumb bow causes problems with anchors and I've been told that adding rake is easier (although less trendy) than adding more rake. If you draw out the bow lines to add rake and do nothing else, you get more deck space, more vee berth space, and probably a drier boat in exchange for a slight reduction of speed in big head seas.

I have to admit, although like many Aussies I grew up with vertical bows, I still find rake to be much more attractive. I would point to cars; a sportscar's front is skinny and streamlined looking, while a van's front is more vertical and bulky.

Raked bows are easier to get out of moulds. The Tasar is a NS14 with a raked bow, the only reason to add rake to the Tasar is to make the boat more attractive to overseas markets. Raked bows in my opinion are more attractive.

Select to expand quote

shaggybaxter said..

garymalmgren said..
I wonder if the bluff bow will ever com back into fashion.
Plenty of buoyancy up forward.
Gary

You might be onto something Gary. The Mini's are one of those most innovative classes in sailing, and a scow bow mini won the Transat back in 2011. Since then their love affair with the scow bow seems to have continued.
Speaking with the owner of Pogo Structures one day, he mentioned he would prefer scow bows on all his cruiser and racer models, but the aesthetics are too radical for most customers.
Hopefully that changes, they have a lot going for them.


Edit: Ha! LooseChange beat me to it, apologies for the double up!

The old square riggers had bluff bows because their construction was weak, with no diagonal stiffness until Steppings introduced diagonal braces. The anchors were in the bow and therefore had to be supported by buoyancy directly underneath. If the heavy weights were not supported by buoyancy underneath, the boat would sag. These days boats are stiff so we can put weights up front and compensate by putting more weight aft, and it won't all bend.

The Minis seem to be largely a product of a rule that means that are in some ways inefficient; the rig is very big for the length so (as in 12 Fot Skiffs, International 14s, etc) the design is partly about packing a lot of volume into a short length. It's got the beam, sail area, foils and cost of a much bigger boat but it's got many of the performance limits of a short boat. If you took the same boat and just stuck 6ft on the front it could be faster, more seaworthy and IMHO immensely better looking, with no real increase in cost.

It's interesting to see the effect of the way we measure boats is reflected in their design. Many of the Euros measured their boats by sail area, so they had tiny rigs and long hulls so you would have a 42ft long 30 Square Metre that would beat the other guy's 38 foot long 30 Square Metre. Before that, we measured by LOA so people had boats that were short, fat, had big crews and huge rigs, and the Minis are sort of like a modern version of that. Both of those extremes end up with something that is slower, more fragile and more expensive boat than something that is a more moderate design by other measures.

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SandS said..
the foiling idea is already creating a new class in racing . a dude in perth has been foiling a laser and has decimated the fleet because the boat is legal ........they had to create anther class for him once another foiler turned up to get the old boats back racing again

As others have said, it would never have been within a million miles of being legal in the first place. I'd be interested to hear more but the foiling Laser I sailed wouldn't normally have been remotely competitive from what I could feel. One of the things about foilers is that they really need a rig with low aerodynamic drag and a lot of righting moment, and the Laser has neither.

Select to expand quote

All@Sea said..
All bow shapes can have their place... reverse bows (love or loath aesthetically) especially on multis are all about getting buoyancy down low -form follows function. Personally I prefer a plumb bow in most cases, and find the Bristol Cutter look more attractive than a J, but still love some meter boat designs as far as classics go - but there is a lot more than just the bow involved. Bow, sheer, cabin, transom, rig... get one wrong and the whole lot can be ruined. On a modern racing mono there's nothing to be gained from a raked bow, but on a cruiser they may be a little drier on deck, but more importantly the anchor chain will clear the hull easily without the need for an extended bow roller...

I only wanted to write a sentence or so, so I'd better stop here before I spend all day at the computer!

pretty much sums it up
wet decks are more a function of stern shape volume aft and fullness below waterline matching fore and aft than bow shape . I actualy prefer a wet boat as they normally have a smoother ride and pound less but I am weird

Great thread!

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boty said..

All@Sea said..
All bow shapes can have their place... reverse bows (love or loath aesthetically) especially on multis are all about getting buoyancy down low -form follows function. Personally I prefer a plumb bow in most cases, and find the Bristol Cutter look more attractive than a J, but still love some meter boat designs as far as classics go - but there is a lot more than just the bow involved. Bow, sheer, cabin, transom, rig... get one wrong and the whole lot can be ruined. On a modern racing mono there's nothing to be gained from a raked bow, but on a cruiser they may be a little drier on deck, but more importantly the anchor chain will clear the hull easily without the need for an extended bow roller...

I only wanted to write a sentence or so, so I'd better stop here before I spend all day at the computer!

pretty much sums it up
wet decks are more a function of stern shape volume aft and fullness below waterline matching fore and aft than bow shape . I actualy prefer a wet boat as they normally have a smoother ride and pound less but I am weird

Here I was thinking the height of the freeboard had a lot to do with the dryness of the boat . When I had the Bounty I always felt the lower
set boat like the SS34 and Carter had an advantage as a result of less non contributing windage (drag ) in relation to sail area and made a mental note that next boat would have a cockpit lower to the water.
Then I caught up with the skipper of an SS after racing for four days all of which was a beat or tight reach in moderate to heavy seas .
We were pretty dry below and even though cold fairly dry in the cockpit.
He complained of being cold and wet all the way and everything below wet. We were never more than two hours apart.
However now I live in Paradise I also like a wet boat ,don't know about a smoother ride but it keeps me cool.

so does a bow strop being a bow if you're foiling?

Something about the french mini reminds me of a beluga, it looks like a seriously fun boat to sail though.

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Chris 249 said..

SandS said..
the foiling idea is already creating a new class in racing . a dude in perth has been foiling a laser and has decimated the fleet because the boat is legal ........they had to create anther class for him once another foiler turned up to get the old boats back racing again

As others have said, it would never have been within a million miles of being legal in the first place. I'd be interested to hear more but the foiling Laser I sailed wouldn't normally have been remotely competitive from what I could feel. One of the things about foilers is that they really need a rig with low aerodynamic drag and a lot of righting moment, and the Laser has neither.

.

cant find the WA vid of the race where he tears through the fleet , your probably right about being not legal , but everything starts off as being not legal .... and if its on you tube isn't it true ?

as for laser not suitable for foiling there is plenty of footage of lasers foiling check out the link above

and the opti !!!

The hull shape of SV in the future may well become irrelevant.