Did we sail 1500nm for nothing?

Nice looking keel that. I'll bet it points like a laser beam.

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JonE said..
Nice looking keel that. I'll bet it points like a laser beam.

Wonder if it would stall below a certain speed?

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julesmoto said..

JonE said..
Nice looking keel that. I'll bet it points like a laser beam.

Wonder if it would stall below a certain speed?

Doubt it, have you seen how thin the chord is?

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JonE said..

julesmoto said..

JonE said..
Nice looking keel that. I'll bet it points like a laser beam.

Wonder if it would stall below a certain speed?

Doubt it, have you seen how thin the chord is?

I thought the shorter the chord the more it doesn't work at slow speeds.

Not my cup of tea - really hard to cruise normal waters withy that draft and very liable to damage when you run into a sandbank at 5 knots.

As for short chords - I once sailed a cat with really short chord rudders - the things stalled so badly the cat couldn't tack. The keel would probably have very good lift/drag ratio but then let go easily when it the load exceeds a certain value. When I design little cats I can make them really nice to sail by putting big foils on with typical 3:1 depth to chord ratios. So I personally would avoid this boat as a buyer.

cheers
Phil

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Kankama said..
Not my cup of tea - really hard to cruise normal waters withy that draft and very liable to damage when you run into a sandbank at 5 knots.

As for short chords - I once sailed a cat with really short chord rudders - the things stalled so badly the cat couldn't tack. The keel would probably have very good lift/drag ratio but then let go easily when it the load exceeds a certain value. When I design little cats I can make them really nice to sail by putting big foils on with typical 3:1 depth to chord ratios. So I personally would avoid this boat as a buyer.

cheers
Phil

Phil I doubt this boat is worth anything , having watched this couple from the very beginning the incredible problems they encountered is unbelievable, the steering bearing need replacing not only was it a nightmare to remove and fit, they had to fly to Australia and have one custom made I hate to think of the cost.
the carbon mast is off the planet expensive with its own problems, the main sail is f-ked and they can't afford to replace it (ridiculous price) and any chance of a keen racer wanting it has diminished with the customised changes.
as a cruising boat dragging that vulnerable huge appendage through Asia and the fish traps and netting is a nightmare.

I think buying a classic like an S and S 39 or Dunco would be so much better than trying to get an ex race boat viable again. Race boats are not designed for a nice ride, or to take lots of weight, or to have nice tankage or lots of other things.

Kankama this is all true.
But the sweet sweet joy of doing 6.5 knots to windward in 12 knots of breeze, or the simple, perfect pleasure of bearing away down a wave and feeling the boat accelerate underneath you, waiting for the log to hit double digits.

I would trade you all the tankage in the world for these things.

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JonE said..
Kankama this is all true.
But the sweet sweet joy of doing 6.5 knots to windward in 12 knots of breeze, or the simple, perfect pleasure of bearing away down a wave and feeling the boat accelerate underneath you, waiting for the log to hit double digits.

I would trade you all the tankage in the world for these things.

Yep. I've had some of my best sailing from these 'middle of the road' boats that borrow features from both racers and cruisers. The responsiveness of the helm you get with a deep draft and good B/D ratio is manna from heaven from a pure enjoyment PoV, But then going below and still having the creature comforts like a good settee, a proper hot shower and a galley, for me it doesn't get much better than that.
I'd happily sacrifice the odd pickle dish for having the best of both worlds.

The below pic was from a day stooge on a cruiser/racer when the wind kicked up a few notches. We were comfortable under a small kite and staysail, fingertip control and coffee in hand with not much to do except sit back and enjoy the ride, even with a full cruising load (100mtrs of chain, 400l of water and all the cushions). It was so good it feels like your soul has been set free.
Hands down, cruiser/racers have given me some of the most rewarding sailing I've ever had the pleasure to experience.

I reckon you are spot on Shaggy - my cat is fun when she picks up her skirts. A good mono can do the same. My points were about getting an ex IMOCA or similar and expecting that to be a good cruising boat. Although reading it back I didn't make that clear.
There are still lots of nice cheapish monos that cruise well that you could let rip, an Adams 13 could do it, maybe a Sayer with a proper keel would be a nice cruiser. What boat were you on to get the above numbers?

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Kankama said..
I reckon you are spot on Shaggy - my cat is fun when she picks up her skirts. A good mono can do the same. My points were about getting an ex IMOCA or similar and expecting that to be a good cruising boat. Although reading it back I didn't make that clear.
There are still lots of nice cheapish monos that cruise well that you could let rip, an Adams 13 could do it, maybe a Sayer with a proper keel would be a nice cruiser. What boat were you on to get the above numbers?

Hiya Kankama,
I'm with you on the IMOCA, modding one into a cruiser would be an exercise in frustration to say the least, I got to wander around a Volvo 60 once and you didn't even have head room in most of the boat. Ugh.
The numbers were off my old girl, a Pogo 12.50 designed by Finot Conq. They were passionate about using their Open 60 designs as a model for a simple 40' cruiser that really resonated with me, so much so that 4 years later and after numerous visits to other yards and NA's I went back and placed an order.
Amazing hull form stability, we could easily pull high teen's under white sails in 30/40+ knots or low 20's under kite in high 30's. It was this boat that transformed my opinion of cruising planing hulls, in horrible conditions we would be having a whale of a time when the displacement boys were hating every minute of it. Maxed out around 22 knots so it's not Kerr 40 territory, but it would pants the Kerr brigade in every way for liveability, comfort and short handing .

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shaggybaxter said..

Kankama said..
I reckon you are spot on Shaggy - my cat is fun when she picks up her skirts. A good mono can do the same. My points were about getting an ex IMOCA or similar and expecting that to be a good cruising boat. Although reading it back I didn't make that clear.
There are still lots of nice cheapish monos that cruise well that you could let rip, an Adams 13 could do it, maybe a Sayer with a proper keel would be a nice cruiser. What boat were you on to get the above numbers?

Hiya Kankama,
I'm with you on the IMOCA, modding one into a cruiser would be an exercise in frustration to say the least, I got to wander around a Volvo 60 once and you didn't even have head room in most of the boat. Ugh.
The numbers were off my old girl, a Pogo 12.50 designed by Finot Conq. They were passionate about using their Open 60 designs as a model for a simple 40' cruiser that really resonated with me, so much so that 4 years later and after numerous visits to other yards and NA's I went back and placed an order.
Amazing hull form stability, we could easily pull high teen's under white sails in 30/40+ knots or low 20's under kite in high 30's. It was this boat that transformed my opinion of cruising planing hulls, in horrible conditions we would be having a whale of a time when the displacement boys were hating every minute of it. Maxed out around 22 knots so it's not Kerr 40 territory, but it would pants the Kerr brigade in every way for liveability, comfort and short handing .

The slapping at anchor would be slightly annoying but marinas would fix that.

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MAGNESIUM said..

shaggybaxter said..

Kankama said..
I reckon you are spot on Shaggy - my cat is fun when she picks up her skirts. A good mono can do the same. My points were about getting an ex IMOCA or similar and expecting that to be a good cruising boat. Although reading it back I didn't make that clear.
There are still lots of nice cheapish monos that cruise well that you could let rip, an Adams 13 could do it, maybe a Sayer with a proper keel would be a nice cruiser. What boat were you on to get the above numbers?

Hiya Kankama,
I'm with you on the IMOCA, modding one into a cruiser would be an exercise in frustration to say the least, I got to wander around a Volvo 60 once and you didn't even have head room in most of the boat. Ugh.
The numbers were off my old girl, a Pogo 12.50 designed by Finot Conq. They were passionate about using their Open 60 designs as a model for a simple 40' cruiser that really resonated with me, so much so that 4 years later and after numerous visits to other yards and NA's I went back and placed an order.
Amazing hull form stability, we could easily pull high teen's under white sails in 30/40+ knots or low 20's under kite in high 30's. It was this boat that transformed my opinion of cruising planing hulls, in horrible conditions we would be having a whale of a time when the displacement boys were hating every minute of it. Maxed out around 22 knots so it's not Kerr 40 territory, but it would pants the Kerr brigade in every way for liveability, comfort and short handing .

The slapping at anchor would be slightly annoying but marinas would fix that.

Not sure what you mean Mag, what slapping at anchor?.

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JonE said..
Kankama this is all true.
But the sweet sweet joy of doing 6.5 knots to windward in 12 knots of breeze, or the simple, perfect pleasure of bearing away down a wave and feeling the boat accelerate underneath you, waiting for the log to hit double digits.

I would trade you all the tankage in the world for these things.

I think if you ran out if water on a passage you would re think that trade.

I happily go one knot slower to windward to avoid having to haul water in a dinghy every couple of days or worse come back early

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shaggybaxter said..

MAGNESIUM said..

shaggybaxter said..

Kankama said..
I reckon you are spot on Shaggy - my cat is fun when she picks up her skirts. A good mono can do the same. My points were about getting an ex IMOCA or similar and expecting that to be a good cruising boat. Although reading it back I didn't make that clear.
There are still lots of nice cheapish monos that cruise well that you could let rip, an Adams 13 could do it, maybe a Sayer with a proper keel would be a nice cruiser. What boat were you on to get the above numbers?

Hiya Kankama,
I'm with you on the IMOCA, modding one into a cruiser would be an exercise in frustration to say the least, I got to wander around a Volvo 60 once and you didn't even have head room in most of the boat. Ugh.
The numbers were off my old girl, a Pogo 12.50 designed by Finot Conq. They were passionate about using their Open 60 designs as a model for a simple 40' cruiser that really resonated with me, so much so that 4 years later and after numerous visits to other yards and NA's I went back and placed an order.
Amazing hull form stability, we could easily pull high teen's under white sails in 30/40+ knots or low 20's under kite in high 30's. It was this boat that transformed my opinion of cruising planing hulls, in horrible conditions we would be having a whale of a time when the displacement boys were hating every minute of it. Maxed out around 22 knots so it's not Kerr 40 territory, but it would pants the Kerr brigade in every way for liveability, comfort and short handing .

The slapping at anchor would be slightly annoying but marinas would fix that.

Not sure what you mean Mag, what slapping at anchor?.

Flat sections on modern race boats are loud on anchor .

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MAGNESIUM said..

shaggybaxter said..

MAGNESIUM said..

shaggybaxter said..

Kankama said..
I reckon you are spot on Shaggy - my cat is fun when she picks up her skirts. A good mono can do the same. My points were about getting an ex IMOCA or similar and expecting that to be a good cruising boat. Although reading it back I didn't make that clear.
There are still lots of nice cheapish monos that cruise well that you could let rip, an Adams 13 could do it, maybe a Sayer with a proper keel would be a nice cruiser. What boat were you on to get the above numbers?

Hiya Kankama,
I'm with you on the IMOCA, modding one into a cruiser would be an exercise in frustration to say the least, I got to wander around a Volvo 60 once and you didn't even have head room in most of the boat. Ugh.
The numbers were off my old girl, a Pogo 12.50 designed by Finot Conq. They were passionate about using their Open 60 designs as a model for a simple 40' cruiser that really resonated with me, so much so that 4 years later and after numerous visits to other yards and NA's I went back and placed an order.
Amazing hull form stability, we could easily pull high teen's under white sails in 30/40+ knots or low 20's under kite in high 30's. It was this boat that transformed my opinion of cruising planing hulls, in horrible conditions we would be having a whale of a time when the displacement boys were hating every minute of it. Maxed out around 22 knots so it's not Kerr 40 territory, but it would pants the Kerr brigade in every way for liveability, comfort and short handing .

The slapping at anchor would be slightly annoying but marinas would fix that.

Not sure what you mean Mag, what slapping at anchor?.

Flat sections on modern race boats are loud on anchor .

OK, now I get it, thanks. The hull forward of the keel is (surprisingly) more rounded than my previous IOR rides. The radius below the chine at the rear tend to take the wave action at the back. You don't really sit on the flat sections till you're moving, I can't remember any real issues with wave slap at anchor. What does suck is when you park up badly in a rolly anchorage. With the keel up the roll is much more exaggerated than a skinny boat.

It was a long time ago, but I can vaguely remember talking to the owner of the only Open 60 I ever raced on (just once, in a harbour race) talking about when they hit the bricks in a light-air race and broke the entire set of keel frames. if I recall correctly the amount of work required was enormous and even the vastly experienced owner (Sean Langman) was surprised by the damage. The loads created by those keels are enormous and the performance advantage is pretty small, really, so they work way out on the edge of the area of diminishing returns.

Normally I find it's wonderful that intelligent, experienced cruisers can choose such an amazing variety of boats - but sometimes there are some boats that could be either an extremely narrow niche, or just not suitable for cruising.

A fast cruiser/racer is a fantastic style of boat IMHO; there's something wonderful to me about charging along at pace and yet being able to look down into a snug floating home down the companionway hatch, and being able to actually enjoy a thoroughbred's performance adds a vital spark to a cruise. Giving away tankage and shelter for speed is one thing, but giving away safety is another IMHO.

19 knots. Just think about that for a minute. 19 knots.

"but it's noisy at anchor"

19. nine teen.
Nnnnnnnnn nineteen.

Pity about the twin wheels but

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JonE said..

Pity about the twin wheels but

Oh I agree! Sadly the boat had to do some corporate work that necessitated wheels, but the tillers would have been so good. I did test sail one in Brittany with tillers. It was great fun, felt like a big dinghy.
But the wheels and position did grow on me, at about 20 degree heel your eyeline is a good 4mtrs high and outboard, so aside from seeing under the jib (you had to drive from the leeward helm for close racing) the vis was pretty awesome.

I love cruising on a boat that can get it on - twice, when loaded for cruising we have done 150 miles in 15 hours. One of these was Coffs to Port Stephens in daylight (just) - lots of mid to high teens just racing along and no kites on either trip. Lots of times averaging ten for hours, and there was one time when we didn't go below 14 for 45 minutes - the boys calling out numbers whist their mum steered and I trimmed trying for high teens.

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Chris 249 said..
A fast cruiser/racer is a fantastic style of boat IMHO; there's something wonderful to me about charging along at pace and yet being able to look down into a snug floating home down the companionway hatch, and being able to actually enjoy a thoroughbred's performance adds a vital spark to a cruise. Giving away tankage and shelter for speed is one thing, but giving away safety is another IMHO.

There's a J/45 on my finger at RQ, that boat rings my bell every time I walk past it.

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Kankama said..
and I trimmed trying for high teens.

Hehehe...that's a telling statement Kankama. 'If I just tweak this, ease that, take another degree or two, ease the leach line, I can get another half a knot there, then I could. !'

Aha I'm always tweaking & trimming when sailing the spray, but that's just to try & get 6kts !

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JonE said..
19 knots. Just think about that for a minute. 19 knots.

"but it's noisy at anchor"

19. nine teen.
Nnnnnnnnn nineteen.

Pity about the twin wheels but

Thought about 19 knots for more than a minute; like many people I sail some stuff where that's typical, or even slow, downwind in a breeze. :-P. It's just that when such speeds comes with so many limits (ie not being able to go into so many lovely places) it's perfectly reasonable to say that it's unlikely to be worth it.

Hope this is on thread - in '82 Hobart on a Farr 11.6 I steered it to 17.6kts (in daylight) - got it down 2 waves in succession with no2 kite and 1 reef in the main in a brilliant race with a lot of hard running - didn't broach or Chinese gybe thankfully - steered for "holes" in the water surface as is needed when going hard downwind - they are 1.98m draft. So the light displacement and hull lines and sail area got it to that 17.6kts - a semi-displacement design form hull. Only 1.98m draft but still a challenge for numerous locations I understand that. Of course they are a good cruiser racer now as long as the keel bolts are done right - so numerous lateral pairs after the single at the fwd and aft ends due to width - and the stub keel gusset lateral stiffening has been done right.

sailboatdata.com/sailboat/farr-38-116/

That 1982 was the year the timber cold moulded Farr 38 Scallywag won it in a totally sublime effort by Ray Johnston and team - the boat was an ex NZ centreboard 1 tonner Smir-noff-agen and one of 5 Kiwi Farr cboarders in the 1977 1 ton cup. The cboarders were smashed on IOR rating soon after. We moored up in Constipation Dock next to Ray after finishing very soon after - our Farr11.6 IOR rating was near or over 2 tonner not 1 tonner - I should have congratulated him more after asking how he went - his answer "they say we've won............" back in the days of humility............

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sydney_to_Hobart_Yacht_Race_winners

rbsailing.blogspot.com/2016/09/smir-noff-agen-saved.html

That was the year Condor beat Apollo by 7s on scratch.

Gday R13

I reckon an 11.6 would be a great fast cruiser. Anything that can stand up to some hard downwind stuff with someone good on the helm for some fast wave surfing would be great in the right conditions. Yet they still look nice to live on - never sailed one though.

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Chris 249 said..

JonE said..
19 knots. Just think about that for a minute. 19 knots.

"but it's noisy at anchor"

19. nine teen.
Nnnnnnnnn nineteen.

Pity about the twin wheels but

Thought about 19 knots for more than a minute; like many people I sail some stuff where that's typical, or even slow, downwind in a breeze. :-P. It's just that when such speeds comes with so many limits (ie not being able to go into so many lovely places) it's perfectly reasonable to say that it's unlikely to be worth it.

You could always get a nice cat - or tri. Come to the dark side - oh wait - we have no real racing.

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Kankama said..

Chris 249 said..

JonE said..
19 knots. Just think about that for a minute. 19 knots.

"but it's noisy at anchor"

19. nine teen.
Nnnnnnnnn nineteen.

Pity about the twin wheels but

Thought about 19 knots for more than a minute; like many people I sail some stuff where that's typical, or even slow, downwind in a breeze. :-P. It's just that when such speeds comes with so many limits (ie not being able to go into so many lovely places) it's perfectly reasonable to say that it's unlikely to be worth it.

You could always get a nice cat - or tri. Come to the dark side - oh wait - we have no real racing.

I don't think I'm allowed to - last time I drove a cruising cat I took it for a hoon and ran it-bows deep into green water in the Whitsundays. :-p

I asked the owner whether we can try to get it to do the Wild Thing like we do in the Formula 18, but he wasn't impressed - must have known about my multihull skills (or lack of them).

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r13 said..
Hope this is on thread - in '82 Hobart on a Farr 11.6 I steered it to 17.6kts (in daylight) - got it down 2 waves in succession with no2 kite and 1 reef in the main in a brilliant race with a lot of hard running - didn't broach or Chinese gybe thankfully - steered for "holes" in the water surface as is needed when going hard downwind - they are 1.98m draft. So the light displacement and hull lines and sail area got it to that 17.6kts - a semi-displacement design form hull. Only 1.98m draft but still a challenge for numerous locations I understand that. Of course they are a good cruiser racer now as long as the keel bolts are done right - so numerous lateral pairs after the single at the fwd and aft ends due to width - and the stub keel gusset lateral stiffening has been done right.

sailboatdata.com/sailboat/farr-38-116/

That 1982 was the year the timber cold moulded Farr 38 Scallywag won it in a totally sublime effort by Ray Johnston and team - the boat was an ex NZ centreboard 1 tonner Smir-noff-agen and one of 5 Kiwi Farr cboarders in the 1977 1 ton cup. The cboarders were smashed on IOR rating soon after. We moored up in Constipation Dock next to Ray after finishing very soon after - our Farr11.6 IOR rating was near or over 2 tonner not 1 tonner - I should have congratulated him more after asking how he went - his answer "they say we've won............" back in the days of humility............

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sydney_to_Hobart_Yacht_Race_winners

rbsailing.blogspot.com/2016/09/smir-noff-agen-saved.html

That was the year Condor beat Apollo by 7s on scratch.

You guys did very well that year. I remember seeing the results where you finished in almost a dead heat with one of those beautiful Lidgard 41 "Relentless" sisters. The 11.6 would have been great fun in that north-easter we all had down the Tassy coast.

Our J is similar in some ways to the 11.6 and with around 2m draft it's already getting close to being too deep.