Hi all

Yesterday a mate of mine said to me when i was going to the boat to sort out the starting problem to measure up my old looking main as he a good spare one at home that may fit my boat if i wanted it

Gave him the measurement last night and he said that he thought it was close

Then i went for a sail today and tore my main along the foot

Pulled my main off and we lay'd both of them out and found that his was approx 2 foot longer in the luff but if i was to get it cut down it would be just about a perfect fit along the foot

My main looks like the original, has small battens and is fixed along the boom by 4 slugs ( i do have a out haul) whereas his has full battens and is loose footed

His also has a bit more roach in it but i think my back stay will still clear it and even though it was off a 24 foot racer the weight of the sail cloth feels much the same

My luff is approx 9050 mm and my original main has 2 reefing points but his has 3 and if it was cut down i would have one a couple of feet up the luff, the next probably 3 feet after that and the 3rd would be probably 1/3 of the way up the luff so i would probably only use the lower 2

The photo below is the boat it was off but the main shown is the bigger replacement sail he had made when he put a longer boom on it not the one i can get

So the question is assuming his can be cut down to suit my boat is there any disadvantages in the full battened loose footed sail over my original main

We are taking both sails to a local sail maker tomorrow afternoon (who i would get to do the work) to see what her opinion is but any thoughts or opinions from the forum members would be appreciated

Regards Don

the fully battened main will work out nicely Donk
Id let him know also his sail bag looks treble

Hi HG

I will let him know but he has sold her a while ago and now has this one

Regards Don

It will be much better.
The new main I have ordered is much the same fully Battened with 3 reefs the third is more like a try sail. My old one is full Battened for the top two but then half Battened and only 2 reefs.
Better sail shape with the full Battened sail.

It will be a cheaper option than buying a new sail and you can experiment with this one.

Full battens and loose footed is a good way to go.

Hi all

I took both sails to the sail maker this afternoon and we looked at both sails and she came to the conclusion that there may be some issues trying to adapt the other sail to my boat

The other sail has been recut on the luff to suit the much lighter curved mast and she is concerned that it wont sit correctly on my heavy straight mast and also because the top full battens are at 90 degrees (it was originally a leach battened sail that has been converted to full battened and the top full battens are on the same angle as the original short leach battens) to the leach she is not sure that it would sit flat on the boom in the lazy jacks when dropped

There was enough doubt for me to can the idea and instead have my original repaired and we decided to convert it to loose footed which will make my outhaul more effective, alleviate the stress on the area where the tear happened (along the stitching holes on the foot of the sail where the slugs sit) and give the sail a bit of a general tidy up with a new clew and tack ring to replaced the corroded originals, a tidy up of the reinforcing at the clew and tack, replacing the bolts in the headboard with rivets as the bolts sometime get caught on the topping lift when dropping the sail and some wear patches where it sits against the spreaders when sailing down wind

The rest of the sail is not to bad so hopefully i will get a bit more life out of it and at least i know that the original will go back on without any unforseen drama's

Regards Don

Wise move. Boats are very different even when seemingly similar. I have had no satisfaction with 2nd hand sails.

Hi Morningbird

I wasn't prepared to take the risk on modifing the other sail and then finding that it would not do the job

Regards Don

I use lots of second-hand sails (in fact now all of my sails are second hand) but the one thing you can almost never do, in my experience, is use a sail designed for a fractional rig on a masthead rig, or vice versa. The luff curves are just too different.

You sometimes see people on Endeavour 24s etc with Etchells or J/24 mains cut down and they always look terrible; too deep, too draft-forward, with a choked leach.

I also have used many second hand sails but like what Chris said they would be cut differently depending on many things including the hull they are meant to push. A spare sail though maybe doesn't have to be a big performer, just being spare is good enough.

But you can get an unknown sail close to a good known one.

The trick I have used is to string the original good sail up horizontally in the air kind of like an awning using all three corners.

Then string the unknown sail directly under the original good sail at the same time. Bingo you can see the differences easily. You to see where the draft is (It sags down), and how much and where are the different leech luff curves.

Get a pen out and mark the spare sail where it needs to be let in or out or shorter or longer and get the sail maker to cut it.

At one time I had a Blazer 23 which went through a few mains and this is how I "made" new ones.

on the subject of mainsails, when reefing is there any drama if you don't use the intermediate reefing ties and go loose-footed instead?

I had a bit of a google last night and found some information that indicated it was not a good idea to use a fixed footed main as a loose footed main because it had the potential to alter the draft of the sail (depending on the original design of the sail)

It was enough to put some doubt in my mind so i spoke to the sail maker this morning and she said it was a possibility (but did not think it would affect mine that much) but i decided to leave it as a fixed footed sail and just repair the tear and give it a general tidy up

The sail is probably well past it's best shape but it used to set ok in it's original form so i don't want to mess with it

If i ever need to order a new sail i will order one that is designed to be loose fitted

Regards Don

Select to expand quote

fishmonkey said..
on the subject of mainsails, when reefing is there any drama if you don't use the intermediate reefing ties and go loose-footed instead?

Hi Fishmonkey

Just checking but i assume you know that the ties only go around the sail and not the boom

Regards Don

Select to expand quote

fishmonkey said..
on the subject of mainsails, when reefing is there any drama if you don't use the intermediate reefing ties and go loose-footed instead?

On modern sails the ties are there only to stop the furled portion from flogging. They shouldn't take any weight. When racing we normally tie them around the boom but just because it's faster, not to exert any force on the middle of the sail (which should be pretty much dead flat anyway).

Select to expand quote

Donk107 said..

fishmonkey said..
on the subject of mainsails, when reefing is there any drama if you don't use the intermediate reefing ties and go loose-footed instead?

Hi Fishmonkey

Just checking but i assume you know that the ties only go around the sail and not the boom

Regards Don

yep, but we have a boom bag in the way so it is easier (although still very awkward) to feed the two ends through the bag and then tie them off around the boom...

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..
On modern sails the ties are there only to stop the furled portion from flogging. They shouldn't take any weight. When racing we normally tie them around the boom but just because it's faster, not to exert any force on the middle of the sail (which should be pretty much dead flat anyway).

thanks, i guess we need to either fit longer ties or else drop the sides of the boom bag when reefing...

There are two points to make, one on the re-cutting of sails.

One has a very good chance dealing with "good" old sails and "money saving", to end up with neither.
Additionally, to the extremely stressed relationship with one's sailmaker, after requiring him to do the impossible, one has a very good chance to end up with a rag, looking like Mother Hubbard's washing, and costing him almost the price of a new sail. Besides, the "new sail" is going to be an eyesore for the rest of the sail's life.
(A storm sail cut from a heavy, used main, is entirely different proposition.)
We are dealing with one every race, a no1, which is trying to do it's job but is failing every time because it is not made for the boat it is being used on. No word to the owner would get through, as usual, he would not consider any criticism from anyone .

Ordering a new sail is the only way to get what one needs, hassle free. Measured, made, fitted by the same guy whom one can talk to! is the go. The cost, yes, is considerable but so is the satisfaction to have a good sail and keeping your dosh in the country where you live. I could not live with a ****ty looking sail on my yacht.

The nature of a second hand sail is to be w o r n . In a worn textile, like sails, the threads are pulled in different directions while in use, modifying the lay of the threads from the unstretched original material. Re cutting this stretched fabric is next to impossible. This is the reason, decent sailmakers are not too keen on re cutting old sails.

The second point is on the lazy jack and the reefing caper.
This seem to prove my point of not having a lazy jack on my boat. As long as the sun is shining in the breeze, no problems.
Problems only arise when the going gets tough.

Select to expand quote

sirgallivant said..
There are two points to make, one on the re-cutting of sails.

One has a very good chance dealing with "good" old sails and "money saving", to end up with neither.
Additionally, to the extremely stressed relationship with one's sailmaker, after requiring him to do the impossible, one has a very good chance to end up with a rag, looking like Mother Hubbard's washing, and costing him almost the price of a new sail. Besides, the "new sail" is going to be an eyesore for the rest of the sail's life.
(A storm sail cut from a heavy, used main, is entirely different proposition.)
We are dealing with one every race, a no1, which is trying to do it's job but is failing every time because it is not made for the boat it is being used on. No word to the owner would get through, as usual, he would not consider any criticism from anyone .

Ordering a new sail is the only way to get what one needs, hassle free. Measured, made, fitted by the same guy whom one can talk to! is the go. The cost, yes, is considerable but so is the satisfaction to have a good sail and keeping your dosh in the country where you live. I could not live with a ****ty looking sail on my yacht.

The nature of a second hand sail is to be w o r n . In a worn textile, like sails, the threads are pulled in different directions while in use, modifying the lay of the threads from the unstretched original material. Re cutting this stretched fabric is next to impossible. This is the reason, decent sailmakers are not too keen on re cutting old sails.

The second point is on the lazy jack and the reefing caper.
This seem to prove my point of not having a lazy jack on my boat. As long as the sun is shining in the breeze, no problems.
Problems only arise when the going gets tough.

You are right that its possible to hack up using a second hand sail and waste your time and money!

Whoever is doing it needs to be able to look at the sail when its up, and in the target breeze, and going hard upwind and judge where the draft is and where it should be if it isn't. Then where to cut out / sew in new material. I only tried this with Dacron. (No money for fancy Kevlar).

My donated and s/h sails were all too big. This makes the draft "too high", "too deep" and "too far aft" when you cut the luff and foot to fit the mast and boom. You can fix this by cutting out two oblate spheroid kind of shapes and resewing. One cut moves the draft down, the other shifts it back and combined they reduce the depth.

I found lying on the deck looking up (not at midday) was a great way to see how the sail was setting. At $7500 for a new Genoa versus $500 for a second hand one I found taking the time to figure out modifications was worthwhile and I learned heaps. There's software you can get too.

At one time I bought my gf a very hefty sewing machine which she was very impressed with. The reason I really bought it became apparent later!!

I dont have a lazy jack either. Too many lines to tangle.

Select to expand quote

sirgallivant said..
The second point is on the lazy jack and the reefing caper.
This seem to prove my point of not having a lazy jack on my boat. As long as the sun is shining in the breeze, no problems.
Problems only arise when the going gets tough.

another thing is that the battens tend to snag in the lazy jacks on the way up, also a PITA (although maybe that can be ameliorated with better design?)

Trek l sailed on your boat........

Ahhh John sorry my dementia is progressing. I thought you were in Pittwater, when I checked your monicker it says Balmain which confused me!