I need to replace my mainsail halyard. The current halyard is 10mm diameter, about 25m long, kernmantle, which feels like a jib sheet and works out at $210.00 with Whitworth's Donaghy's rope (www.whitworths.com.au/rope-s-spd-2mm-multi). The outer sheath degraded in the sun, split open and is now jammed and bunched up inside the clutch lever on the cabin top. The inner core is fine.

However, my jib and spinnaker halyards are 8mm and are "harder" to the touch, like the Textech double braid polyester rope (www.whitworths.com.au/6mm-d-braid-white), which works out at $47.50.

Incidentally the P dimension (the luff on the mainsail) on my Cav 28 is 30' or 9.14m.

Other than the more expensive 10mm being nicer on the hands, is there a good reason to use it over the cheaper 8mm double braid polyester rope?

Stretch.Its a pita when the wind comes or you turn the corner onto a beat even on my Sonata extract from quantum sails
www.quantumsails.com/en/resources-and-expertise/articles/not-all-line-is-equal-how-to-choose-the-right-1

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Bananabender said..
Stretch.Its a pita when the wind comes or you turn the corner onto a beat even on my Sonata extract from quantum sails
www.quantumsails.com/en/resources-and-expertise/articles/not-all-line-is-equal-how-to-choose-the-right-1

BB nailed it with one word.
Stretch.
Usually the outer jacket snaps from not pre-tensioning the halyard before releasing the jammer, so it tears minutely the jacket when it releases. Always pre-tension your halyard before releasing the jammer.

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shaggybaxter said..

Bananabender said..
Stretch.Its a pita when the wind comes or you turn the corner onto a beat even on my Sonata extract from quantum sails
www.quantumsails.com/en/resources-and-expertise/articles/not-all-line-is-equal-how-to-choose-the-right-1

BB nailed it with one word.
Stretch.
Usually the outer jacket snaps from not pre-tensioning the halyard before releasing the jammer, so it tears minutely the jacket when it releases. Always pre-tension your halyard before releasing the jammer.

Hey Shaggy , suffering much from withdrawals . Perhaps short temper ,restless legs ,shakes, hitting the bottle . . Sorry Achernar.

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Bananabender said..

shaggybaxter said..

Bananabender said..
Stretch.Its a pita when the wind comes or you turn the corner onto a beat even on my Sonata extract from quantum sails
www.quantumsails.com/en/resources-and-expertise/articles/not-all-line-is-equal-how-to-choose-the-right-1

BB nailed it with one word.
Stretch.
Usually the outer jacket snaps from not pre-tensioning the halyard before releasing the jammer, so it tears minutely the jacket when it releases. Always pre-tension your halyard before releasing the jammer.

Hey Shaggy , suffering much from withdrawals . Perhaps short temper ,restless legs ,shakes, hitting the bottle . . Sorry Achernar.

Hiya BB,
Yes to all?
Ach if you need a scullery boy lemme know :)

I would go with 8mm dyneema/spectra. If you buy it off ebay it will set you back about $100 which is cheaper than the 10mm you mentioned from whitworths.

I recently replaced 3 halyards with dyneema core double braided ropes from ebay. The stiffer stuff appears to have a waxed core which is better if you are going to taper the halyard and do an eye splice. Someone did tell me the stiffer stuff has a UV coating but I think this is the wax coating. Maybe the wax has UV resistance. I had thought all dyneema was very UV resistant (wax or no wax). The softer stuff (no wax on the core) is nicer on the hands and easier to bundle in the cockpit. Im rambling on.

Dont buy black. I made this mistake and its hard to see if you have the halyard wrapped around a topping lift. I wish I went with a bright color for this reason.

8mm Spectra and don't use a jammer but take it to a cleat behind the winch.

A rope clutch or jammer forward of the winch will free the winch up and allow you to use the winch for other ropes

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Ramona said..
8mm Spectra and don't use a jammer but take it to a cleat behind the winch.

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Jolene said..
A rope clutch or jammer forward of the winch will free the winch up and allow you to use the winch for other ropes

I'm forced to run lines to cleats behind the cabin top winches, its my biggest bugbear with my running rig and it really is a PITA. I agree totally with Jolene, which brings me to ask - anybody have any lying around unused? Perhaps from an upgrade from single to doubles, or doubles to triples? Please let me know - I'd be interested to purchase. Thanks.

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Jolene said..
A rope clutch or jammer forward of the winch will free the winch up and allow you to use the winch for other ropes

I think it's best to have a dedicated halyard winch. For older people and those with large mainsails fully battened would benefit from an electric winch. Alongside the halyard winch have another winch for the reefing lines.

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Bananabender said..
Stretch.Its a pita when the wind comes or you turn the corner onto a beat even on my Sonata extract from quantum sails
www.quantumsails.com/en/resources-and-expertise/articles/not-all-line-is-equal-how-to-choose-the-right-1

To clarify, are you saying that stretch is a bad thing, and the double braid polyester would be better?

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Achernar said..

Bananabender said..
Stretch.Its a pita when the wind comes or you turn the corner onto a beat even on my Sonata extract from quantum sails
www.quantumsails.com/en/resources-and-expertise/articles/not-all-line-is-equal-how-to-choose-the-right-1

To clarify, are you saying that stretch is a bad thing, and the double braid polyester would be better?

Stretch is to be avoided especially for halyards. Thats why in days gone by they used wire to rope halyards as wire has a very low stretch point. Spectra/dyneema is best for halyards. What have you got now?
edit: IMO quality double braid poly will do the job if your only going to potter around Moreton and your not too concerned about sail shape

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Bananabender said..

edit: IMO quality double braid poly will do the job if your only going to potter around Moreton and your not too concerned about sail shape

That's me, though I'll keep on practicing my sail-shaping skills. So I got 25m of 8mm double braid today at $1:90 per metre, or about $47:50 total. Might move up a grade when I find the limits of this stuff.

Make life fun.
Find a bargain coil of 8mm dyneema. The stuff is that good you'll want to replace all your halyards. Then you will decide the left overs would make good kite sheets and low and behold there is enough left to make a couple job sheets.
Hours of fun... "Heave up on the red one...no the other red one!"
"Which one?"
Rail meat in chorus "THE RED ONE!!!"
Gift that keeps giving.

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longwinded said..
Make life fun.
Find a bargain coil of 8mm dyneema. The stuff is that good you'll want to replace all your halyards. Then you will decide the left overs would make good kite sheets and low and behold there is enough left to make a couple job sheets.
Hours of fun... "Heave up on the red one...no the other red one!"
"Which one?"
Rail meat in chorus "THE RED ONE!!!"
Gift that keeps giving.

I am talking about a 28 Adams or a 53 Benny, non-racing cruisers, respectively.
On the 28 I swapped all the tired 10mm DB halyards to 8mm spectras and they served me well using Spinlock jammers. They never slipped never chafed. Harder on the hands but one is wearing gloves, anyway. All sheets were 8 or 10mm DB for comfort, the traveller 6mm spectra.

On the 53 Benny all lines are spectra or dynema as there are huuuge forces there. The electric whinches do the rest of the hard work.

It is well known, that DB stretches a bit and that is the reason why it is better for sheets or spinnaker halyards (save a buck or three) while dynema and spectra (the 'cheaper' one) does not (well, it does a tiny bit but admitting that would kill sales to the enthusiasts [$$] so they do not mention it).
However, this is only important in the case of racing boats or ocean going ones where forces might appear never experienced on yachts sailed on weekends in harbours like PJ, PPB or MB.
Just look at the data sheets in the cattledogs, you'll see the difference.
If one is into the scientific methods, one could look up a halyard or sheet tension calculator on the net and figure out the correct size and exact need of ones yacht as far as the lines to sail size and wind speed are concerned.
One who is helming a trailersailer is going to be totally overwhelmed in 35-45 knot winds, may be much less, and even the best dynema line will not help, so it is a waste of dough. Any 8mm DB will do there as one must reef early. Very early, so the lines never get too much force applied to them.
If the lines are matched to the sail's size and the hull type in force 10 winds with a good margin, one should be pretty safe. Methinks. This is all subjective.

One must be aware of the necessity of calculating all sails and all reefs at different wind speeds separately, according to one's yachts characteristics (how soon one ought to reef) as the wind strengthens.
It is quite different on racers, especially ocean racers and ocean cruisers. They are obliged to use the best materials as the requirements are shifted considerably within minutes out there. Just think of the S-toH races of the last few decades like the infamous 79 Fastnet race or the 98 Hobart. There is no escape from force 12 winds out there.

Always buy the best your boat needs, but do not over-spend on unnecessary things just because the neighbour did buy something you do not need or a stupid advert blurb promising the world.
Be aware of Chineese crap peddled on the net, as some of the stuff is just total utter rubbish! Buy Australian if possible even if it cost more than imported goods.
Especially Chineese garbage peddled on the net by obnoxcious belligerent people. ...with insidious politics. Just think about barley, meat, red wine, coal, iron ore and from today timber.


I hope my missive helps a bit to decide.


Fair winds!
Merrier Christmas Happier New Year



Ps: recommended reading:
Dashew: Practical seamanship
(google it)

I agree with 85% of what you say . Very astute advice.
The 15% is in relation to spinnaker Halyard and trailer sailers.
Ronstan and my sailmaker advised I use dyneema on my spinnaker halyard and tack line. The reason being I have a top down furler and they both highly recommended that the torque line be kept very tight for efficient furling. Using dyneema also meant that the cost of jammers etc was much less as they can be smaller which by the way is a consideration when changing from db to dyneema. Will the old clutches/ jammers/ winches hold firm the thinner line?
As an old codger who sails a trailer sailer solo I don't race but do get bored just pottering around so love getting the adrenaline flowing by pushing her to her/ my limits and there is nothing more annoying than having to hold the tiller between the legs whilst tightening the halyard on the main or genoa when the wind pipes up because of stretch making it impossible to get a flat lower leech and twist above etc.
Now the main is a pain but as a winch is handy I can ,with some dexterity , steer and use two hands to tighten the luff . If too dangerous ie. moored boats or shallows I will use the cunningham HOWEVER the genoa halyard does not come back to a winch so my only option to tighten the luff is to go head to wind . Buying a winch for the halyard is a waste and in fact a lot of ts do not have winches so dyneema halyards are a godsend. The other consideration is that for a smaller ts the cost difference is negligible in total as not as much length in needed so why not go for the best. There are also quite a few ts that are the length of your adams.
phew. I'm in need a bex and a lie down after that.

Ya still drinking that hogwash? Strewth!

Well, as far as sailing is concerned we are talking about cruising. Coastal cruising or bay sailing.
The old manilla ropes would do splendidly in most cases, however, as modern halyards are concerned, spectra is good.
The ts or a boat with a shoal-draught hull ought to be reefed - in my experience - well before an average 28 feet long keel boat let alone the Adams 28 which is a yare boat with ocean going rigging. I found the spinnaker and assimetric - having DB halyards - do not transfer as much load to the mast and rigging as a spectra would, the DB taking up part of the sudden loads by stretching. All the other 3 halyards, up-haul and wang are spectras, all led back. I never used a top-down furler on the 28 that is used on the Benny, but that is another world alltogether. If recommended one would be nuts not to heed the advice.
The 'tiller btwn the legs' was mostly avoided by balancing the sails - the A 28 is a very well behaving, taut vessel running in average conditions without a touch on the tiller and partially by the tiller-pilot,
which I use a lot. The auto-tack function is brilliant.
All the lines back to the cockpit and the halyard winches are also increase one's peace of mind. Not to mention the old covey's physics, who sail the tub. The 6 Spinlicks took the new 8mm spectra halyards happily - changing from 10mm DB - and so did the 6 self tailing winches. Lucky me.

I do not question the recommendations of Ronstan or a rigger about the dynema-spectra benefits to some, racers or ocean crossers or in special set ups like yours.
However, they do not have to pay for it in the first place and one should never forget the fact, that one does not get the much more expensive lines because of the goodness of Ronstan's or the riggers hearths but from their regards to self interest! And this is the peccant part. Methinks.
To boot, spectras or dynemss seldom have longer lifespan than a good quality DB - not some utter rubbish from China - for a faction of the cost. Naturally, those space age matarials are needed and used for good reason, though in any chain it is always the weakest link that is determining the strength of the whole.

Fair winds

I like your reasoning SG.
I suppose when I'm too old to hare around I'll buy a cruising boat and will be looking for all the comforts of self steering ,heavy displacement ,electric winches electronics etc..
Don't get me wrong I have nothing but full admiration for those who set off into the blue without the company of other boats.
Be it your Bene. or my Sonata to generalise and say all ts should etc. is a bit of a stretch. ( not db stretch)
Sailmaker not rigger.