So it's the turn of the old 4:1 mainsheeet system on my NS38 to receive some attention. Quite a big main on the 7/8 rig so need a gorilla on board to work a 4:1 system.
Read a lot about German systems so thought for the price of 3 blocks which I can easily use elsewhere if it doesn't work out I rigged up the sheeting system as depicted in the attached picture. A quick test without moving off the mooring revealed that with the blocks on the traveller marginally below the winches the traveller would not move freely to the outboard ends because the length of line between the winches changes as the traveller reaches the outboard end and pulls the sheet downward just before the winch.
The blocks on the traveler will need to be raised so that the mainsheet runs very nearly parallel to the traveller. Tried a Ronstan block which is a little longer than Selden but still not enough height. To avoid a mess of shackles I have now swaged a wire strop together for another trial. I am worried however that the angle of approach to the winches will now be horizontal so I may get override problems although of course the top of the coamings and hence the winches are canted outboard. Will retest tomorrow.

On the plus side the system doesn't seem to present an undue additional trip hazard as the endless control line of the traveller already spans the cockpit at coaming level.
If it proves itself practical I have just gained a new mainsheet system and with much more purchase for around $200 vs $1400 dollar for a 6 to 1 conventional mainsheet system.

It's not clear from the pictures but how is the triangular stainless steel bracket that provides the attachment points for the shackles holding the blocks attached to the cars that run along the track?

Would it be possible to lift the SS bracket higher by inserting a block of hardwood or SS square bar between the cars and the SS bracket?

Most German systems have one block on the traveler, a double on the boom then fwd to the mast before coming back to the winches.
this would solve the traveler issue but adds a lot of line.

yeah, i don't know, you don't have st winches so you are going to have to keep them carefully loaded all the time, you have no ability to do a small ease, big eases and taking in a lot of sheet is going to be a bit awkward and you probably won't be able to play the traveler because the lines going to the winches are going to cause binding.
Worth giving it a crack though. Perhaps also try the turning block on the traveler car and lead to the winches as per above description of german system.
got to love playing with boats though, so many things to try!
Edit: Actualy the non st winches are going to be better to ease but harder to take line in.

Seems like an over complication to me. OK if you have a crew with you but I can see problems if your sailing solo and you happen to be in the forward section of the cockpit and there is a need for an adjustment.
The SS34 came with a flash traveler set up in the same place as yours. It was a nightmare to adjust and to get a decent purchase on. I moved it forward about 300mm and raised the traveler to be flush with the cockpit coaming. The bottom block is one of those 1960's SS units with a decent sized camcleat. Now it's easy to reach and also easy to get heaps of purchase. It's 5:1. The traveler is now directly below the boom fitting where it should be.

Thanks for the replies guys. Unless I manage to squeak a sail in on Friday a test of the system is going to have to wait till next week. There are two other guys with NS38s who say they love this system or to be more specific one of the guys says his crew loves the system. Yes they have ST winches but if that is all that is required I am willing to invest 190 bucks in those poor man's ST conversion rubber tops to see if it makes a difference. No harm done if the system doesn't work well as I will just have to go to a 6 to 1 block system that is conventional wisdom and is necessary for my big main on its 5.3m boom.
As an aside the traveller system works really well and I do use it. Fair to say however if the 4:1 mainsheet didn't require gorilla strength I might use it more in preference to the traveller. Pic below shows the bottom mainsheet block that came with the boat and seems to have lost its becket so definitely needed swapping out. I assume these things can't be repaired.

That old system is only a 3:1. Maybe a similar set up with another block on boom, becket to terminate at the traveler end (4:1) and ball bearing blocks would make all the differance. Also, softer rope will run through the blocks easier.

Select to expand quote

julesmoto said..
Thanks for the replies guys. Unless I manage to squeak a sail in on Friday a test of the system is going to have to wait till next week. There are two other guys with NS38s who say they love this system or to be more specific one of the guys says his crew loves the system. Yes they have ST winches but if that is all that is required I am willing to invest 190 bucks in those poor man's ST conversion rubber tops to see if it makes a difference. No harm done if the system doesn't work well as I will just have to go to a 6 to 1 block system that is conventional wisdom and is necessary for my big main on its 5.3m boom.
As an aside the traveller system works really well and I do use it. Fair to say however if the 4:1 mainsheet didn't require gorilla strength I might use it more in preference to the traveller. Pic below shows the bottom mainsheet block that came with the boat and seems to have lost its becket so definitely needed swapping out. I assume these things can't be repaired.

You could look at a fine tune system as per here;

www.harken.com/en/support/tech-articles/mainsheet-fine-tune-systems/

Agree a good traveller system is a bonus. Traveller a bit up to windward generally works well on fractional rigs until you hit 20-25kts true wind speed depending on the yacht type. Of course mainsheet tension and traveller position go hand in hand. Norths did a good webinar here;

Select to expand quote

stray said..
That old system is only a 3:1. Maybe a similar set up with another block on boom, becket to terminate at the traveler end (4:1) and ball bearing blocks would make all the differance. Also, softer rope will run through the blocks easier.

Thanks but it is 4 to 1 as someone has tied the end off to the mounting shackle rather than the becket which would originally have been up the top but has sheared off.

Select to expand quote

julesmoto said..

stray said..
That old system is only a 3:1. Maybe a similar set up with another block on boom, becket to terminate at the traveler end (4:1) and ball bearing blocks would make all the differance. Also, softer rope will run through the blocks easier.

Thanks but it is 4 to 1 as someone has tied the end off to the mounting shackle rather than the becket which would originally have been up the top but has sheared off.

Oh, i just figured you had been using it like it is in the photo which would only be 3:1.

My bottom block looks the same. I had to machine a new pulley and add an extra block into the system so it's now 5 to one rigged to disadvantage but the camcleat height is ideal.


The traveller is one of those Harken units that pull up to windward.

Our boat, which has a similar sized main, similar righting moment etc had a similar system when we got it. I took it off. When you winched on the mainsheet with the windward winch, the traveller moved to windward as well.

As noted earlier, a "German" system is one where the mainsheet leads along each side of the boom to the tack, then down to blocks near the shrouds and then aft. This stops the traveller from moving up and down when the mainsheet is adjusted. It also lets people "bounce" on the mainsheet when it's lightly loaded and you need a lot of line speed.

I now have a 5 or 6 to 1 block and a 3:1 fine tune connected to one end. For us it was free since we had crashed and written off a 20' racing cat and kept the mainsheet system and the spare one. :-). The 5 or 6 to 1 is probably overkill and does lead to tangles when the mainsheet is pulled on when unloaded (ie after dropping the main), but I'd never go back to the winch system.

Select to expand quote

Ramona said..
My bottom block looks the same. I had to machine a new pulley and add an extra block into the system so it's now 5 to one rigged to disadvantage but the camcleat height is ideal.


The traveller is one of those Harken units that pull up to windward.

Thanks for that picture. Yours looks great and adding an additional block would be a great idea but I have no becket top or bottom:-( .

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..
Our boat, which has a similar sized main, similar righting moment etc had a similar system when we got it. I took it off. When you winched on the mainsheet with the windward winch, the traveller moved to windward as well.

As noted earlier, a "German" system is one where the mainsheet leads along each side of the boom to the tack, then down to blocks near the shrouds and then aft. This stops the traveller from moving up and down when the mainsheet is adjusted. It also lets people "bounce" on the mainsheet when it's lightly loaded and you need a lot of line speed.

I now have a 5 or 6 to 1 block and a 3:1 fine tune connected to one end. For us it was free since we had crashed and written off a 20' racing cat and kept the mainsheet system and the spare one. :-). The 5 or 6 to 1 is probably overkill and does lead to tangles when the mainsheet is pulled on when unloaded (ie after dropping the main), but I'd never go back to the winch system.

I too have a Harken ball bearing system in good nick off a cat that I wrecked. Mine was only a 16 foot Hydra however so by the look of the shackle pin I don't think it would be strong enough which is hardly surprising given the difference in size of the boats.

Anyway I'll give the winch based system a go for starters.

So finally got to sail yesterday and today with my new system and I'm quite liking it. Went to pull the main sheet a few times when I wanted to trim the jib a bit because I couldn't get my mind around the fact that a rope around a winch controls the main not a headsail but I'm sure I will get over that.
I thought that I would have to use a winch handle to trim the main which I was worried might be a bit onerous but it is surprisingly easy to pull on the sheet without touching a winch handle even when there is a fair bit of wind in the main and it already has a bit of tension on it going to windward. This is surprising because the main is so much bigger than the headsail and the winches are considerably smaller than the head sail winches.
This was effectively single handed in my fairly large cockpit as well as it was raining a lot of the time today and the crew being my wife and 5 year old disappeared below for the 10 nautical mile sail back from last night's anchorage ( not that they do much even when it is sunny). Great sail however both days :-).

Select to expand quote

julesmoto said..
So finally got to sail yesterday and today with my new system and I'm quite liking it. Went to pull the main sheet a few times when I wanted to trim the jib a bit because I couldn't get my mind around the fact that a rope around a winch controls the main not a headsail but I'm sure I will get over that.
I thought that I would have to use a winch handle to trim the main which I was worried might be a bit onerous but it is surprisingly easy to pull on the sheet without touching a winch handle even when there is a fair bit of wind in the main and it already has a bit of tension on it going to windward. This is surprising because the main is so much bigger than the headsail and the winches are considerably smaller than the head sail winches.
This was effectively single handed in my fairly large cockpit as well as it was raining a lot of the time today and the crew being my wife and 5 year old disappeared below for the 10 nautical mile sail back from last night's anchorage ( not that they do much even when it is sunny). Great sail however both days :-).

Wahoo! Good to hear your happy with it JM! Out of interest, my boom was just a tad over 5mtrs also and it was a 3 to 1 in the boom. It ran to a 2 speed 42ST on the cabin top roof and definitely needed a handle. Easy to grind on low gear but it took a long time to sheet to centreline from fully eased.
Did you get your self tailor?
Cheers,
SB

Select to expand quote

julesmoto said..
So finally got to sail yesterday and today with my new system and I'm quite liking it. Went to pull the main sheet a few times when I wanted to trim the jib a bit because I couldn't get my mind around the fact that a rope around a winch controls the main not a headsail but I'm sure I will get over that.
I thought that I would have to use a winch handle to trim the main which I was worried might be a bit onerous but it is surprisingly easy to pull on the sheet without touching a winch handle even when there is a fair bit of wind in the main and it already has a bit of tension on it going to windward. This is surprising because the main is so much bigger than the headsail and the winches are considerably smaller than the head sail winches.
This was effectively single handed in my fairly large cockpit as well as it was raining a lot of the time today and the crew being my wife and 5 year old disappeared below for the 10 nautical mile sail back from last night's anchorage ( not that they do much even when it is sunny). Great sail however both days :-).

Great that it worked out!
just the fact that you got rid of that ancient block on the traveller would make a big difference friction wise.

Select to expand quote

stray said..

julesmoto said..
So finally got to sail yesterday and today with my new system and I'm quite liking it. Went to pull the main sheet a few times when I wanted to trim the jib a bit because I couldn't get my mind around the fact that a rope around a winch controls the main not a headsail but I'm sure I will get over that.
I thought that I would have to use a winch handle to trim the main which I was worried might be a bit onerous but it is surprisingly easy to pull on the sheet without touching a winch handle even when there is a fair bit of wind in the main and it already has a bit of tension on it going to windward. This is surprising because the main is so much bigger than the headsail and the winches are considerably smaller than the head sail winches.
This was effectively single handed in my fairly large cockpit as well as it was raining a lot of the time today and the crew being my wife and 5 year old disappeared below for the 10 nautical mile sail back from last night's anchorage ( not that they do much even when it is sunny). Great sail however both days :-).

Great that it worked out!
just the fact that you got rid of that ancient block on the traveller would make a big difference friction wise.

It's mostly static load on the mainsheet blocks. I have the same block but with a new black Delrin sheave and it's surprisingly good friction wise. Probably because it has smaller diameter rope used now.

Select to expand quote

shaggybaxter said..

julesmoto said..
So finally got to sail yesterday and today with my new system and I'm quite liking it. Went to pull the main sheet a few times when I wanted to trim the jib a bit because I couldn't get my mind around the fact that a rope around a winch controls the main not a headsail but I'm sure I will get over that.
I thought that I would have to use a winch handle to trim the main which I was worried might be a bit onerous but it is surprisingly easy to pull on the sheet without touching a winch handle even when there is a fair bit of wind in the main and it already has a bit of tension on it going to windward. This is surprising because the main is so much bigger than the headsail and the winches are considerably smaller than the head sail winches.
This was effectively single handed in my fairly large cockpit as well as it was raining a lot of the time today and the crew being my wife and 5 year old disappeared below for the 10 nautical mile sail back from last night's anchorage ( not that they do much even when it is sunny). Great sail however both days :-).

Wahoo! Good to hear your happy with it JM! Out of interest, my boom was just a tad over 5mtrs also and it was a 3 to 1 in the boom. It ran to a 2 speed 42ST on the cabin top roof and definitely needed a handle. Easy to grind on low gear but it took a long time to sheet to centreline from fully eased.
Did you get your self tailor?
Cheers,
SB

The secondary winches that I am using, being the aft ones, are little old Barlow 24 two speeds and yes I got the Wincher rubber tops which serve a self-tailing function if the winch is fully loaded with the sheet touching the top.

They are also supposed to provide a sheet point in the rubber groove but that seems to be too narrow for the diameter of my main sheet. I haven't spliced the main sheet yet to make it endless but I haven't found that to be a real problem as I am using the old main sheet with a fair bit of sheet on the cockpit floor each side. I was just sheeting in on whatever side appeared to have less rope on the cockpit floor as sheeting in can be done from either side. Actually that is quite convenient when single-handing as previously the mainsheet block/cleat if anywhere near central on the traveller lay in front of the binnacle and the large wheel which made it inaccessible from behind the wheel.

Select to expand quote

julesmoto said..

... and yes I got the Wincher rubber tops which serve a self-tailing function if the winch is fully loaded with the sheet touching the top.

They are also supposed to provide a sheet point in the rubber groove but that seems to be too narrow for the diameter of my main sheet.

"sheet point" should have read "cleat function"