My partner made the mistake of reviving a years-old dream of getting into cruising after years off the water. I was lined up to put a deposit on a 28.5ft keelboat at a good price but was beaten to it! Consequently I've spent countless hours researching and looking at ads, which just creates more questions!

Desires:
1. Comfortable accommodation for 2 for coastal cruising (looking around 28 to 30 feet), including possible month-long cruising.
2. At least 6ft headroom in galley and at least SOME of the saloon.
3. Able to be sailed single-handed on occasions.
4. Most sailing around Hervey Bay and Great Sandy Strait, with intention of full Qld coast in future.

I'm more comfortable with the seaworthiness of a keel boat, and the open cabin space that a fixed keel provides. Plus there is less to go wrong with a fixed keel. However, I'm finding the concept of a retractable keel attractive for the shallow waters of Sandy Strait and southern Hervey Bay. I'm concerned about the stability, reliability, and maintenance though, especially as I'm probably looking at a boat from the mid '80s. Not keen on towing, but hauling onto dry storage at the marina between sails has advantages. Been considering a Farr B30 which I found at a good price, and looking at Noelex 30 (but they are somewhat expensive).

I have limited yacht sailing experience but as a teenager raced in a TS in mid '70s, then owned and raced a Cherub in '80s to early '90s. DID sail from Melbourne to Hobart (down the west coast) in 1988, but we had to motor most of the way across the Strait because there was no wind!

I would appreciate advice on retractable keel boats - especially on maintenance issues. Also open to suggestions on good boats - both fixed or retractable keel. (or bilge keel?)

Cheers

Alan

Alan,

You might know this already, but the Farr B30 and Noelex 30 are both too wide to be considered "true" trailer sailers because their beams put them in the "wide load" category.

If you were to consider something a little smaller (say Noelex 25, RL 28, Duncanson 25/26, Magnum 28, Austral 8 etc.) there is a wealth of information at ... trailersailerplace.com.au/phpBB3/. The site has some information on the Farr and Noelex, plus plenty of experience with smaller equivalents.

As I previously owned an Austral 20 with a swing keel, I can attest that retractable keels require more maintenance and fixing them can be painful. They also generally mean more maintenance, more purchase-dollars, more intrusion into the cabin. But, they have their advantages, as you already noted.

I want afarrtoo.
The Noelex and Binks 30 are as I understand cousins with the same hull designed by Bruce Farr and initially designed as a fixed keel . The Noelex being a better fit out . These two should not be confused with the normal trailer sailer as they are over width and have inboard diesel and lots of room . For sailing in shallow waters and getting real close to the beach ,perfect.
They come with an electric keel or hydraulic lift keel so one relies on proper servicing of the keel wire/rope and sheaves and the other on hydraulic seals etc. . Neither are a big deal if annually looked at. The major things to look at are the swing bolt the keel swings on and condition of the keel if not lead . I would also check around the keel box to hull for leaks ,weakness or repairs . For ocean sailing the comfort of a fixed keel cannot be underestimated however for knocking around your home waters which are known for shallow banks ,tides and wonderful beaches I would take one of the above but thats just me who sails a trailer sailer in Southern Moreton Bay solo weekly .

Masrm 920 (not sure about the headroom though)

Have a read.
johncrawfordmarine.com.au/farr-b-30/523-farr-b-30-information-overview-compressed/file

An important difference is that to my knowledge the B30 has a swing keel whereas the Noelex 30 has a dagger.

The B30 can dry out better since the bulb retracts into the hull.

Drying out is pretty handy in QLD waters l would think.

Having said that Simon Carter dries out his NX 30 using legs.

Grounding ie running aground in an Nx 30 can really do some dammage so keep that in mind also.

Sorry MM beat me to it............

There are very slight differences in the specs of the B30 (design99) and Noelex30 (design112) from the Farr website;

www.farrdesign.com/99.html

www.farrdesign.com/112.html

The photo in the B30 link is not a B30.

Follow the links there for both for more details - the B30 was a swing keel with bulb trailing pointed end swinging up into a housing while the N30 was a lift keel which is far better and gives more interior room.

The Norwalk island sharpie from all accounts sail well, cleaver design, self righting with ballast built into the garboard chine, the centre board is off set and its trunk is part of the furniture so not to intrude, unstayed tabanacle rig, a well for the outboard and a sharpie so takes the hard like a cat. Not a production boat so not so many around. The designer Bruce Kirby has been known to come up with a few good ideas. Worth a look if one comes on the market in your locality

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r13 said..
Sorry MM beat me to it............

There are very slight differences in the specs of the B30 (design99) and Noelex30 (design112) from the Farr website;

www.farrdesign.com/99.html

www.farrdesign.com/112.html

The photo in the B30 link is not a B30.

Follow the links there for both for more details - the B30 was a swing keel with bulb trailing pointed end swinging up into a housing while the N30 was a lift keel which is far better and gives more interior room.

Everyone says drop is better but why?
I believe drop or swing depends on a number of requirements.
Disadvantage of swing is serviceability of swing bolt ,
intrusion into cabin , restriction in length of keel . Advantage of swing keel . Retracts completely into hull , When grounding the grounding is gentle as the keel gives with no damage ,especially with sand or mud bottoms.
Disadvantage of drop. Just about every article I have read about leaks in or around the keel boxes are drop . Could that be because the keel box has to be sealed from the coach roof down to the hull. Most performance drop keels protrude through the coach roof when up. Grounding a drop can do damage more so than swing.
Advantage . Intrusion into cabin not as bad . Better design and placement of keel
with advantage of pointing. The Noelex is seen by many as the king of cruising ts
but alan cant afford the premium price.

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THREADPOLICE said..
Masrm 920 (not sure about the headroom though)

I had a look online at a Masrm 920 fixed keel version last night on boatsales.
Looked interesting and appears to be a good buy - clean, perhaps a little spartan, but don't think that's a big issue. Looks to be potentially difficult to sail single handed - seems to be a fair bit of power in those sails!

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...
Disadvantage of swing is serviceability of swing bolt, intrusion into cabin , restriction in length of keel . Advantage of swing keel . Retracts completely into hull , When grounding the grounding is gentle as the keel gives with no damage ,especially with sand or mud bottoms....

There is a B30 for sale in Paynesville, VIC, with plenty of pics. The bulb keel seems to be housed quite well and the keel is well integrated into the cabin table - to all appearances less intrusive than the full height daggerboard case of the N30. I quite liked the look of the boat and would drive to inspect it if it was only a couple of hours away, but Paynesville is a 2 day drive!
One of my concerns with BOTH systems is what happens if the boat is permanently kept in the water... Does the keel housing get fouled, and how on earth do you clean it???
Also, with the B30, when the keel is lowered there must be a huge hole in the hull aft of the keel where the keel bulb recess is... not very conducive to water flow over the hull (or is this negligible).

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alanfw said..

...
Disadvantage of swing is serviceability of swing bolt, intrusion into cabin , restriction in length of keel . Advantage of swing keel . Retracts completely into hull , When grounding the grounding is gentle as the keel gives with no damage ,especially with sand or mud bottoms....

There is a B30 for sale in Paynesville, VIC, with plenty of pics. The bulb keel seems to be housed quite well and the keel is well integrated into the cabin table - to all appearances less intrusive than the full height daggerboard case of the N30. I quite liked the look of the boat and would drive to inspect it if it was only a couple of hours away, but Paynesville is a 2 day drive!
One of my concerns with BOTH systems is what happens if the boat is permanently kept in the water... Does the keel housing get fouled, and how on earth do you clean it???
Also, with the B30, when the keel is lowered there must be a huge hole in the hull aft of the keel where the keel bulb recess is... not very conducive to water flow over the hull (or is this negligible).

I have had a Sonata Swing keel for four years and she has been permanently in Gold Coast water .Naturally antifouled but impossible up the keel case so to avoid any excessive growth in the keel box I alternate every couple of weeks between leaving her moored keel up or keel down .Sure there is some growth so at each antifoul every eighteen months or so I ask the pressure hose is directed up the keel slot but forgot this time. I seem to remember reading in one of the B30 articles some sort of cover was devised to stop the sloshing of water in the bulb recess. Some ts owners have attached flaps on the keel case opening to get that extra knot.

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Bananabender said..
Have a read.
johncrawfordmarine.com.au/farr-b-30/523-farr-b-30-information-overview-compressed/file

Thanks Bananabender. That was a VERY useful read!

I REALLY like the way the B30 can be beached. That's a real bonus for the creeks up on Fraser.

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Bananabender said..

alanfw said..

...
Disadvantage of swing is serviceability of swing bolt, intrusion into cabin , restriction in length of keel . Advantage of swing keel . Retracts completely into hull , When grounding the grounding is gentle as the keel gives with no damage ,especially with sand or mud bottoms....

There is a B30 for sale in Paynesville, VIC, with plenty of pics. The bulb keel seems to be housed quite well and the keel is well integrated into the cabin table - to all appearances less intrusive than the full height daggerboard case of the N30. I quite liked the look of the boat and would drive to inspect it if it was only a couple of hours away, but Paynesville is a 2 day drive!
One of my concerns with BOTH systems is what happens if the boat is permanently kept in the water... Does the keel housing get fouled, and how on earth do you clean it???
Also, with the B30, when the keel is lowered there must be a huge hole in the hull aft of the keel where the keel bulb recess is... not very conducive to water flow over the hull (or is this negligible).

I have had a Sonata Swing keel for four years and she has been permanently in Gold Coast water .Naturally antifouled but impossible up the keel case so to avoid any excessive growth in the keel box I alternate every couple of weeks between leaving her moored keel up or keel down .Sure there is some growth so at each antifoul every eighteen months or so I ask the pressure hose is directed up the keel slot but forgot this time. I seem to remember reading in one of the B30 articles some sort of cover was devised to stop the sloshing of water in the bulb recess. Some ts owners have attached flaps on the keel case opening to get that extra knot.

A lack of real estate for the mangy critters definitely seems to help. I never had any issues with barnacles in the well thankfully but that was with periodic scrubs. I was pretty happy with that, I hate barnacles. The gap is at its worst case when you are keel up, the keel head fattens out and fills the gap nicely when the keel is down.





And you are 100% right with lack of serviceability on the pivot bolt and bearing.
And unlike you yuppie Sonata dudes, not every swing keel disappears neatly into the hull &^%$#@.
You can sit on it though, so there is that. But that's like an Ashley Martin alternative to a full head of hair, no matter how you cut it , it's just not quite the same .

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shaggybaxter said..

Bananabender said..

alanfw said..

...
Disadvantage of swing is serviceability of swing bolt, intrusion into cabin , restriction in length of keel . Advantage of swing keel . Retracts completely into hull , When grounding the grounding is gentle as the keel gives with no damage ,especially with sand or mud bottoms....

There is a B30 for sale in Paynesville, VIC, with plenty of pics. The bulb keel seems to be housed quite well and the keel is well integrated into the cabin table - to all appearances less intrusive than the full height daggerboard case of the N30. I quite liked the look of the boat and would drive to inspect it if it was only a couple of hours away, but Paynesville is a 2 day drive!
One of my concerns with BOTH systems is what happens if the boat is permanently kept in the water... Does the keel housing get fouled, and how on earth do you clean it???
Also, with the B30, when the keel is lowered there must be a huge hole in the hull aft of the keel where the keel bulb recess is... not very conducive to water flow over the hull (or is this negligible).

I have had a Sonata Swing keel for four years and she has been permanently in Gold Coast water .Naturally antifouled but impossible up the keel case so to avoid any excessive growth in the keel box I alternate every couple of weeks between leaving her moored keel up or keel down .Sure there is some growth so at each antifoul every eighteen months or so I ask the pressure hose is directed up the keel slot but forgot this time. I seem to remember reading in one of the B30 articles some sort of cover was devised to stop the sloshing of water in the bulb recess. Some ts owners have attached flaps on the keel case opening to get that extra knot.

A lack of real estate for the mangy critters definitely seems to help. I never had any issues with barnacles in the well thankfully but that was with periodic scrubs. I was pretty happy with that, I hate barnacles. The gap is at its worst case when you are keel up, the keel head fattens out and fills the gap nicely when the keel is down.





And you are 100% right with lack of serviceability on the pivot bolt and bearing.
And unlike you yuppie Sonata dudes, not every swing keel disappears neatly into the hull &^%$#@.
You can sit on it though, so there is that. But that's like an Ashley Martin alternative to a full head of hair, no matter how you cut it , it's just not quite the same .

Look who is calling who a yuppie. Poncy francophile. Must admit your a..se looks a bit smoother . Never thought about it too much until now. Perhaps I will leave keel up when moored in future. Hey I got kicked off the daughters pontoon.
They bought a bigger boat so I rented a pen at Horizon Shores for 12 months . I'm equidistant travel time between Shorncliffe ,Manly and Steiglitz but going against peak hour going south.
She looks a bit out of place in a 45 foot pen

If I were looking for an entry level cruiser in those parts I would give serious consideration to a Rob Legg (RL) 28 or 34. Both have headroom, adequate performance, and the 28 is trailerable - shallow draft would be a big advantage - multihulls would also be worth investigating (but that's a can of worms!)... the issue I see with a lift keel with bulb is that drying out is less of an option.

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All@Sea said..
If I were looking for an entry level cruiser in those parts I would give serious consideration to a Rob Legg (RL) 28 or 34. Both have headroom, adequate performance, and the 28 is trailerable - shallow draft would be a big advantage - multihulls would also be worth investigating (but that's a can of worms!)... the issue I see with a lift keel with bulb is that drying out is less of an option.

We have a local RL that seems to kick butt all the time, nice boats.

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alanfw said..
There is a B30 for sale in Paynesville, VIC, with plenty of pics. The bulb keel seems to be housed quite well and the keel is well integrated into the cabin table - to all appearances less intrusive than the full height daggerboard case of the N30. I quite liked the look of the boat and would drive to inspect it if it was only a couple of hours away, but Paynesville is a 2 day drive!

It looks in good condition, been for sale for quite some time, could be it was overpriced or a more limited market for such a large beast. Can't remember if the price has come down or not. No mention of trailer.

Jump on a plane early Sat morning, rent a car and spend Sat night in Paynesville. Look at the boat Sat & Sun and reverse. bring your partner for a mystery trip.

OR ask for someone local to have a look over it for you first.

For the Great Sandy Straits a retractable keel, swing or dagger, makes a lot of sense but bottoming out on a regular basis is going to increase your bottom maintenance factor somewhat.

The GSS is a magic playground but I don't think a retractable keel is going to get you into a whole lot more places than a shallower draft fixed keel yacht would. After all a B30 has about a metre draft keel up so an extra half a metre draft will not make much difference.

Therefore, in your own argument with your future intentions, I have to suggest that a Clansman 30 would be an ideal yacht for you.

sailboatdata.com/sailboat/clansman-30

Before committing to anything to anything have a really good look around Tin Can Bay in a tinnie at the hundreds of yachts down there and of course talk to as many people there who own yachts. Cheers.

My boat has a retractable keel (it's 30 foot long and lives in a shed at home) and for where I like to sail it is perfect for me. When our family was young (there in their 30's now, we used to have holidays on it at Christmas time in a marina at Mooloolaba. It was much more like a camping holiday though because a family of 6 was pretty cramped. The boat does not have full head height internally but our boom awning gives full head height in the cockpit when we're set up). My favorite place to go is the sandhills at Moreton Island. Keel is now back being raised and lowered on a small 4wd electric winch that is push button operated from the helm. Draught goes from about 2200 to 500mm nice and quick. I anchor in very shallow water, as soon as the bulb starts to bounce I use four glued up fender stacks (300x300x300) that I just push in under the hull. Two either side at around where the propshaft exits the hull at the stern and two either side just in front of the main bulkhead forward. As the tide drops the boat just settles.
Little boats are a trade off. I'm guessing an old cherub sailor wants to get where he's going rather briskly so I think I would encourage you not to be too scared off a boat that sails well but may not seem to have everything a caravan would have down below.
Another thing, by the time you are 30' long out board motors may not be the best. I was also warned off outboards on a well by a bloke that built cats and tris but that's another story. I love the little diesel in my boat.
Just some thoughts that I hope encourage.

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cisco said..
For the Great Sandy Straits a retractable keel, swing or dagger, makes a lot of sense but bottoming out on a regular basis is going to increase your bottom maintenance factor somewhat.

The GSS is a magic playground but I don't think a retractable keel is going to get you into a whole lot more places than a shallower draft fixed keel yacht would. After all a B30 has about a metre draft keel up so an extra half a metre draft will not make much difference.

Therefore, in your own argument with your future intentions, I have to suggest that a Clansman 30 would be an ideal yacht for you.

sailboatdata.com/sailboat/clansman-30

Before committing to anything to anything have a really good look around Tin Can Bay in a tinnie at the hundreds of yachts down there and of course talk to as many people there who own yachts. Cheers.

The B30 keel up 40cms. Same as RL28

Clubman 8 9" draft board up, oboard in well.

johncrawfordmarine.com.au/austral-clubman-8/10-austral-clubman-8-brochure-and-specifications/file

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They bought a bigger boat so I rented a pen at Horizon Shores for 12 months . I'm equidistant travel time between Shorncliffe ,Manly and Steiglitz but going against peak hour going south.
She looks a bit out of place in a 45 foot pen

Hiya BB,
Eek, is that a 14m berth? The poor thing, you need to buy another boat to keep it company
It would be good for docking, you could almost sail her in sideways whilst swinging a cat and still not hit anything!

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osco said..
My boat has a retractable keel (it's 30 foot long and lives in a shed at home) and for where I like to sail it is perfect for me.

Osco, what is your 30 footer? Can you post some pics?

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I'm guessing an old cherub sailor wants to get where he's going rather briskly so I think I would encourage you not to be too scared off a boat that sails well but may not seem to have everything a caravan would have down below.

I'm recently retired, so in no hurry to get anywhere! Lost my wife to cancer nearly 3 years ago (she was 55), so I'm pretty keen to do the things I've always wanted to do but put off because of kids and work - do them while I'm still fit and healthy. At present I'm not looking to race - racing (and most other competitive sports) brings out the worst in me! But my racing past has led me to appreciate good sailing qualities I'd also have to say that Hervey Bay and GSS cruising is more of a means than an end - getting my new partner some enjoyable sailing experience before heading out for a long haul up the QLD coast, so that is a big driving force in boat choice.

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shaggybaxter said..

They bought a bigger boat so I rented a pen at Horizon Shores for 12 months . I'm equidistant travel time between Shorncliffe ,Manly and Steiglitz but going against peak hour going south.
She looks a bit out of place in a 45 foot pen

Hiya BB,
Eek, is that a 14m berth? The poor thing, you need to buy another boat to keep it company
It would be good for docking, you could almost sail her in sideways whilst swinging a cat and still not hit anything!

Yep 14, Chap I share it with thinks its great. We can conduct swim races between.
Been thinking about that Sonata 8 up your way for sale but its fixed keel.

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shaggybaxter said..

Shaggybaxter, what is that photo from - not a B30 is it? The article I read that Bananabender posted seemed to show that the B30 keel retracts almost totally into the hull allowing the boat to sit on a fairly flat bottom. (But I may have just misinterpreted a diagram)

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alanfw said..

osco said..
My boat has a retractable keel (it's 30 foot long and lives in a shed at home) and for where I like to sail it is perfect for me.

Osco, what is your 30 footer? Can you post some pics?

I'm guessing an old cherub sailor wants to get where he's going rather briskly so I think I would encourage you not to be too scared off a boat that sails well but may not seem to have everything a caravan would have down below.

I'm recently retired, so in no hurry to get anywhere! Lost my wife to cancer nearly 3 years ago (she was 55), so I'm pretty keen to do the things I've always wanted to do but put off because of kids and work - do them while I'm still fit and healthy. At present I'm not looking to race - racing (and most other competitive sports) brings out the worst in me! But my racing past has led me to appreciate good sailing qualities I'd also have to say that Hervey Bay and GSS cruising is more of a means than an end - getting my new partner some enjoyable sailing experience before heading out for a long haul up the QLD coast, so that is a big driving force in boat choice.

What ever you look at make sure it has a roomy enclosed head and a comfy cockpit

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alanfw said..

shaggybaxter said..

Shaggybaxter, what is that photo from - not a B30 is it? The article I read that Bananabender posted seemed to show that the B30 keel retracts almost totally into the hull allowing the boat to sit on a fairly flat bottom. (But I may have just misinterpreted a diagram)

G'day Alan,
It's a Pogo 12.50, it can't recess like the cool swing keels on some of other boats being discussed as it's 3mtrs long and has about 1500kgs of lead in the foot.
The rudder posts are reinforced so you can sit on the mud (balancing on the three points) but I was never game to try .


Finot Conq designed this version of a swing keel back in the 80's and have never had a failure, so there is nothing wrong with the swing concept. In actual fact I caused a bit of a stir due to a hydraulic leak in mine that got them a bit nervous till we worked it out.
I think the largest they have done was in a 100' which isn't too shabby. Imagine seeing a 100'er parked up next to you at the sand hills .

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All@Sea said..
If I were looking for an entry level cruiser in those parts I would give serious consideration to a Rob Legg (RL) 28 or 34. Both have headroom, adequate performance, and the 28 is trailerable - shallow draft would be a big advantage - multihulls would also be worth investigating (but that's a can of worms!)... the issue I see with a lift keel with bulb is that drying out is less of an option.

I'm looking at a local RL28 tomorrow. Saw it in the dry storage area of the local marina. Looks nice on the outside, but the hull has been "reconditioned by a shipwright". Could this mean "structural issues have been hidden by a new coat of gel"? What should I look for before buying? In my opinion, it is overpriced at $35,000, but then it DOES have an ally trailer in good condition which must be worth a bit. Being out of the water has some advantages too: less money on antifouling, one fifth of the annual cost of a marina berth (the owner has said the dry storage will be transferrable to the new owner), less potential for water damage to the hull. But the downside is I still have to get the boat into the water: my Subaru Forester has a towing limit of 1850kg, so it's not going to legally tow the boat on the road. But that isn't an issue - all I have to do is back it down the boat ramp to launch, and haul it up the ramp at the end of the sail. The boat "dry weight" is 1360kg. Add the trailer weight and all the additions since production... is it likely to create problems hauling out with my 2014 Forester?

I'm still REALLY torn between a fixed keel and retracting keel - this process is doing my head in big time!

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shaggybaxter said..

alanfw said..

shaggybaxter said..

Shaggybaxter, what is that photo from - not a B30 is it? The article I read that Bananabender posted seemed to show that the B30 keel retracts almost totally into the hull allowing the boat to sit on a fairly flat bottom. (But I may have just misinterpreted a diagram)

G'day Alan,
It's a Pogo 12.50, it can't recess like the cool swing keels on some of other boats being discussed as it's 3mtrs long and has about 1500kgs of lead in the foot.
The rudder posts are reinforced so you can sit on the mud (balancing on the three points) but I was never game to try .


Finot Conq designed this version of a swing keel back in the 80's and have never had a failure, so there is nothing wrong with the swing concept. In actual fact I caused a bit of a stir due to a hydraulic leak in mine that got them a bit nervous till we worked it out.
I think the largest they have done was in a 100' which isn't too shabby. Imagine seeing a 100'er parked up next to you at the sand hills .

Shaggy, that Pogo looks like a real rocketship! Reminds me of the aft shape of my cherub - keep her flat and she lifts out of the water and flies - let her heel and she's awful! Before the Cherub, I had a 125 dinghy - a real dog because she wouldn't sit up and plane like the cherub. Too much vee in the aft half made her less inclined to plane and more twitchy off the breeze.

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Bananabender said..

shaggybaxter said..

They bought a bigger boat so I rented a pen at Horizon Shores for 12 months . I'm equidistant travel time between Shorncliffe ,Manly and Steiglitz but going against peak hour going south.
She looks a bit out of place in a 45 foot pen

Hiya BB,
Eek, is that a 14m berth? The poor thing, you need to buy another boat to keep it company
It would be good for docking, you could almost sail her in sideways whilst swinging a cat and still not hit anything!

Yep 14, Chap I share it with thinks its great. We can conduct swim races between.
Been thinking about that Sonata 8 up your way for sale but its fixed keel.

Looks more like a Sonata 26 as bigger cabin.