Hey guys,

Just after a bit of advice from the brains trust please. I'm keen to get my young fella (12yo) into sailing, and initially he'd like to start with me on a 2 person dinghy. I'd love some suggestions on a good 2-person yacht that has some decent performance without being too technically challenging, and that is also relatively popular (so we would be able to sail with others in Brisbane).

Thanks all

Have a look at an off the beach cat eg Nacra.

Depending on your location in Brisbane, you may best to visit the local dinghy sailing club when the sailing season starts again. Have a look at what the popular two handed dinghy's are and talk to the locals.
Easy starting with large fleets would be Herons, a little more technical for beginners would be a Tasar / NS14 (no spinnaker or trapeeze), Mirror, 420, then National E's, 29ers etc. Probably more that the brains trust will no doubt put forward.
Perhaps an alternative is to start your son in a Tacka's program and let him sail single or double handed in Manly Junior, Optis, Minnow or a thousand other types of single handed dinghy's with other kids. You can help behind the scene at the club, parents are always required at sailing clubs, plus you get to meet other parent sailors and pick their brains.
When your son is confident and enjoying it, move into a boat that suits you both.

A Tasar is well worth considering as the association is quite active they sail at many locations.

www.tasar.org/regions/australia/queensland/

Select to expand quote

Jode5 said..
Have a look at an off the beach cat eg Nacra.

Thanks Jode5, i do like the Nacra but want to get him started in monohull.

Select to expand quote

EC31 said..
Depending on your location in Brisbane, you may best to visit the local dinghy sailing club when the sailing season starts again. Have a look at what the popular two handed dinghy's are and talk to the locals.
Easy starting with large fleets would be Herons, a little more technical for beginners would be a Tasar / NS14 (no spinnaker or trapeeze), Mirror, 420, then National E's, 29ers etc. Probably more that the brains trust will no doubt put forward.
Perhaps an alternative is to start your son in a Tacka's program and let him sail single or double handed in Manly Junior, Optis, Minnow or a thousand other types of single handed dinghy's with other kids. You can help behind the scene at the club, parents are always required at sailing clubs, plus you get to meet other parent sailors and pick their brains.
When your son is confident and enjoying it, move into a boat that suits you both.

Thanks EC31 - yes we'll head down to the Oxley Sailing Club when it all kicks off again and get involved. Thanks for the tips, i'll do some investigating

Select to expand quote

cisco said..
A Tasar is well worth considering as the association is quite active they sail at many locations.

www.tasar.org/regions/australia/queensland/

These look good Cisco, thanks

dont mind the tasar but my choice would be an ns14 same parameters but sail better

I think it's important that you choose a dinghy class that has other kids the same age as your son racing. NS14's and Tasars are fine but they seem to have more husband and wife crews. Classes that attract young teenage girls will make your son more enthusiastic! I would try and find him a crewing spot first.

I think it just depends on the 'state of the nation' your local clubs are at, they go through cycles and there are times where i have seen local clubs over flowing with new sailors and young crews

Whatever the most popular 2 handed teenager skiff is. Probably the Flying Eleven (100 boats at Nats).

Something light/fast with skinnaker that can dad/son or teenager/teenager sail.

I fully second Ramonas comment (my experience), as if you're successful at making him a sailor, he will then need to stretch his wings.

Key is fun/speed/social.

Minimise long rigging/non-plaining

My lads started in a Flying 11.

I agree with others that the key is to make it fun and social - and to look at what is being sailed at a local club by kids of a similar age.
Now an old fart, my experience was that my younger days and into early adulthood was in a series of NS14s (a great little boat IMHO). After a lull in sailing activity in early marriage, when my son reached about the same age as the OP's I purchased a small yacht (Sonata 26) with the express purpose of trying to interest my son in sailing (as well as family fun) so that we could father/son a racing dinghy together at a local club.
While that was partly successful in that we had many great family weekends aboard (I still have the boat 25 years on), I missed the window and he showed absolutely no real interest in the sailing part of the deal - to the point that a few years later it was an actual turn-off - as everyone with a teenager will tell you, anything that your parents do or like, SUCKS, by definition.
My chance came later when a lifelong friend of mine bought a Sydney 36 to race on Sydney Harbour with RSYS. Short of crew early on I asked my son to join us one Saturday. He was hooked and we went on to enjoy father/son sailing together for the next ten or so years (and won Division 1 RSYS series a couple of times). The son also joined Many Yacht Club and raced Sundays as well - and has now done three Sydney/Hobart's and numerous Hamilton/Airlie race weeks and other regattas.
I think the moral of this longwinded story is that you need to a degree of luck - and timing is key. In this case, dinghies were not the turn on , but big boats were. I am of the opposite opinion - but I at least got some great father/son time together - and he made a lot of close friends through sailing.

Select to expand quote

Icepick said..
I agree with others that the key is to make it fun and social - and to look at what is being sailed at a local club by kids of a similar age.
Now an old fart, my experience was that my younger days and into early adulthood was in a series of NS14s (a great little boat IMHO). After a lull in sailing activity in early marriage, when my son reached about the same age as the OP's I purchased a small yacht (Sonata 26) with the express purpose of trying to interest my son in sailing (as well as family fun) so that we could father/son a racing dinghy together at a local club.
While that was partly successful in that we had many great family weekends aboard (I still have the boat 25 years on), I missed the window and he showed absolutely no real interest in the sailing part of the deal - to the point that a few years later it was an actual turn-off - as everyone with a teenager will tell you, anything that your parents do or like, SUCKS, by definition.
My chance came later when a lifelong friend of mine bought a Sydney 36 to race on Sydney Harbour with RSYS. Short of crew early on I asked my son to join us one Saturday. He was hooked and we went on to enjoy father/son sailing together for the next ten or so years (and won Division 1 RSYS series a couple of times). The son also joined Many Yacht Club and raced Sundays as well - and has now done three Sydney/Hobart's and numerous Hamilton/Airlie race weeks and other regattas.
I think the moral of this longwinded story is that you need to a degree of luck - and timing is key. In this case, dinghies were not the turn on , but big boats were. I am of the opposite opinion - but I at least got some great father/son time together - and he made a lot of close friends through sailing.

Fantastic story Icepick, thanks for sharing mate!

Select to expand quote

boty said..
dont mind the tasar but my choice would be an ns14 same parameters but sail better

Oooohhhhh!!!!!! Fight's on!

It depends on how you define "sail better". The speed is almost exactly the same; for instance a year or two back the No 3 Tasar in Australia and the No 1 (or very close to it) NS14 were starting 3 mins apart and finishing very close to 3 min apart. The yardsticks are the same too. The NS14 narrower on the waterline with a smaller rig. It's arguably a case of one boat being more delicate and the other more stable. It depends what you like.

F11s are nice but small for a father and son team, and the QLD fleet is small. The 125 is another possibility.

Most of our kids started with a carbon fibre Tornado cat, possibly the fourth or fifth fastest small boat (boat, not class) in the country at the time. They then moved to a smaller fast cat. The only one who is keen now got into it when she did twilight racing on a friend's 36'er. We often tend to forget that kids are as individual as adults in their tastes.

Select to expand quote

Chris 249 said..

boty said..
dont mind the tasar but my choice would be an ns14 same parameters but sail better

Oooohhhhh!!!!!! Fight's on!

It depends on how you define "sail better". The speed is almost exactly the same; for instance a year or two back the No 3 Tasar in Australia and the No 1 (or very close to it) NS14 were starting 3 mins apart and finishing very close to 3 min apart. The yardsticks are the same too. The NS14 narrower on the waterline with a smaller rig. It's arguably a case of one boat being more delicate and the other more stable. It depends what you like.

F11s are nice but small for a father and son team, and the QLD fleet is small. The 125 is another possibility.

Most of our kids started with a carbon fibre Tornado cat, possibly the fourth or fifth fastest small boat (boat, not class) in the country at the time. They then moved to a smaller fast cat. The only one who is keen now got into it when she did twilight racing on a friend's 36'er. We often tend to forget that kids are as individual as adults in their tastes.

isn't the tasar just a dumed down ns 14 the reason i suggest the ns14 is the smaller lighter rig lighter weight no kite all easier handled by a light crew i also love the 125

The Tasar is a one design version of one of the earlier NS14 hulls. Mr Bethwaite added a non vertical bow so it would appeal to International sailers. Has an extra 10 square feet of sail in the main and a mast that is in two pieces to reduce the package for shipping. All the hulls are the same except for those built for the armed forces. The navy made a big deal about having the hulls with no carbon fibre in the layup so the apprentices could carry out repairs. Repairing hulls with carbon fibre is easy of course but at the time was considered high tech.
The Tasar is actually a nice package and quite clever in it's concept. Usually more comfortable hiking than a NS14 and definitely not a simplified NS14.

Select to expand quote

OldSalt4 said..

EC31 said..
Depending on your location in Brisbane, you may best to visit the local dinghy sailing club when the sailing season starts again. Have a look at what the popular two handed dinghy's are and talk to the locals.
Easy starting with large fleets would be Herons, a little more technical for beginners would be a Tasar / NS14 (no spinnaker or trapeeze), Mirror, 420, then National E's, 29ers etc. Probably more that the brains trust will no doubt put forward.
Perhaps an alternative is to start your son in a Tacka's program and let him sail single or double handed in Manly Junior, Optis, Minnow or a thousand other types of single handed dinghy's with other kids. You can help behind the scene at the club, parents are always required at sailing clubs, plus you get to meet other parent sailors and pick their brains.
When your son is confident and enjoying it, move into a boat that suits you both.

Thanks EC31 - yes we'll head down to the Oxley Sailing Club when it all kicks off again and get involved. Thanks for the tips, i'll do some investigating

Looks like Oxley has Pacers which although not overly quick are quite forgiving and I have raced as as adult on the helm (80kg) with a 12yo (30kg) and won races.

Out of interest we had an opening day down here with the clubs fleet of 12 Pacers. The head sail trainer asked if I could take this kid out who was showing talent but was loosing interest in sailing and was a bit scared at times.
Anyway, it blew 20+ on the day and this kid was scared but I made sure we hit the water a good 30min before race start and eased him into it by sailing around in a few of the more sheltered spots and then showing that although the upwind slog was hard, the downwind afterwards was calm and the reaches were a blast!!
Anyway, we went on the win the day and the local paper took a pic of us coming back into the club after the race which made the back page, my young crew with a grin ear to ear! that
He went on to sail dinghy's at a national level and is still sailing now!!

Moral of the story, be confident. Nothing puts a kid off quicker than an adult who is more scared than they are!!!

Select to expand quote

Ramona said..
The Tasar is a one design version of one of the earlier NS14 hulls. Mr Bethwaite added a non vertical bow so it would appeal to International sailers. Has an extra 10 square feet of sail in the main and a mast that is in two pieces to reduce the package for shipping. All the hulls are the same except for those built for the armed forces. The navy made a big deal about having the hulls with no carbon fibre in the layup so the apprentices could carry out repairs. Repairing hulls with carbon fibre is easy of course but at the time was considered high tech.
The Tasar is actually a nice package and quite clever in it's concept. Usually more comfortable hiking than a NS14 and definitely not a simplified NS14.

Thanks for the info Ramona, great insight.

I'm discovering the hardest part about getting the type of dinghy we want is actually being able to find one for sale! I've found 2 NS14's for sale in South East QLD and no Tasar's. Most prolific dinghy seems to be Lasers and Sabots neither of which suit my needs.

Any insights on best places to find dinghy for sale would be appreciated - Gumtree, Ebay and boat sales.com.au don't have much for me. Cheers!

Select to expand quote

rumblefish said..

OldSalt4 said..

EC31 said..
Depending on your location in Brisbane, you may best to visit the local dinghy sailing club when the sailing season starts again. Have a look at what the popular two handed dinghy's are and talk to the locals.
Easy starting with large fleets would be Herons, a little more technical for beginners would be a Tasar / NS14 (no spinnaker or trapeeze), Mirror, 420, then National E's, 29ers etc. Probably more that the brains trust will no doubt put forward.
Perhaps an alternative is to start your son in a Tacka's program and let him sail single or double handed in Manly Junior, Optis, Minnow or a thousand other types of single handed dinghy's with other kids. You can help behind the scene at the club, parents are always required at sailing clubs, plus you get to meet other parent sailors and pick their brains.
When your son is confident and enjoying it, move into a boat that suits you both.

Thanks EC31 - yes we'll head down to the Oxley Sailing Club when it all kicks off again and get involved. Thanks for the tips, i'll do some investigating

Looks like Oxley has Pacers which although not overly quick are quite forgiving and I have raced as as adult on the helm (80kg) with a 12yo (30kg) and won races.

Out of interest we had an opening day down here with the clubs fleet of 12 Pacers. The head sail trainer asked if I could take this kid out who was showing talent but was loosing interest in sailing and was a bit scared at times.
Anyway, it blew 20+ on the day and this kid was scared but I made sure we hit the water a good 30min before race start and eased him into it by sailing around in a few of the more sheltered spots and then showing that although the upwind slog was hard, the downwind afterwards was calm and the reaches were a blast!!
Anyway, we went on the win the day and the local paper took a pic of us coming back into the club after the race which made the back page, my young crew with a grin ear to ear! that
He went on to sail dinghy's at a national level and is still sailing now!!

Moral of the story, be confident. Nothing puts a kid off quicker than an adult who is more scared than they are!!!

Yes, they do have Pacers. I've heard they're forgiving which is good but have also heard they're a bit sluggish which may not hold my young fella's interest? Am going to sail one this weekend hopefully so will have a first hand opinion afterwards.

Select to expand quote

OldSalt4 said..

Ramona said..
The Tasar is a one design version of one of the earlier NS14 hulls. Mr Bethwaite added a non vertical bow so it would appeal to International sailers. Has an extra 10 square feet of sail in the main and a mast that is in two pieces to reduce the package for shipping. All the hulls are the same except for those built for the armed forces. The navy made a big deal about having the hulls with no carbon fibre in the layup so the apprentices could carry out repairs. Repairing hulls with carbon fibre is easy of course but at the time was considered high tech.
The Tasar is actually a nice package and quite clever in it's concept. Usually more comfortable hiking than a NS14 and definitely not a simplified NS14.

Thanks for the info Ramona, great insight.

I'm discovering the hardest part about getting the type of dinghy we want is actually being able to find one for sale! I've found 2 NS14's for sale in South East QLD and no Tasar's. Most prolific dinghy seems to be Lasers and Sabots neither of which suit my needs.

Any insights on best places to find dinghy for sale would be appreciated - Gumtree, Ebay and boat sales.com.au don't have much for me. Cheers!

As has been advised go to the club see what they are sailing. They will have contacts of boats for sale.

Good one Rumble

For Queensland I would keep an eye out for a tired 470 on Gumtree. Sail with out a spinnaker for awhile. If it does not work out with your son they are fairly easy to move on.

Hi all - thanks for all of your help. I happened to find a NS14 locally in reasonable condition at a good price ($1500 including dolly and quality registered road trailer) so bought it this morning, looking forward to seeing how it goes.

The mast step completely failed (just the pin) when rigging it up this arvo - so if anyone knows the best people to speak with for a new one, that would be appreciated!

Thanks again.

Select to expand quote

Ramona said..
The Tasar is a one design version of one of the earlier NS14 hulls. Mr Bethwaite added a non vertical bow so it would appeal to International sailers. Has an extra 10 square feet of sail in the main and a mast that is in two pieces to reduce the package for shipping. All the hulls are the same except for those built for the armed forces. The navy made a big deal about having the hulls with no carbon fibre in the layup so the apprentices could carry out repairs. Repairing hulls with carbon fibre is easy of course but at the time was considered high tech.
The Tasar is actually a nice package and quite clever in it's concept. Usually more comfortable hiking than a NS14 and definitely not a simplified NS14.

From memory, the older NS14 use the same mast step pin arrangement as the older Tasars (the thinner version). If so, NB Sailsports (Woollahra) may have one in stock for you, just measure it to make sure. Most everyone else goes to a local welder (Stainless) and get it rewelded for another 10 years.

Tasar's came into being because women were being kicked off NS14's in favour of small children as crew. Frank introduced the Tasar with a larger sail area and a minimum weight restriction for crew weight when racing (130kg). That is why you will find NS14's mainly have children as crew as they can fit under boom and don't need a seat (thawte) to sit on. Tasar's are very adult male female orientated. Having said that, I started in Tasars with my teenage children.

Ian Bruce (Laser designer and co designer of the Tasar) requested that Frank Bethwaite change the bow shape to make it more commercially appealing. There was an interim boat called a Nova (couple hundred made) that still had the vertical bow. Early 700 series Australian boats (most notably Franks) had Kevlar, not carbon fibre. Carbon fibre is not allowed on a Tasar except for the tiller and extension (which are normally lifted straight from a Laser or Laser 2. Navy boats had a double layer gelcoat to help protect the hull when being transported on Navy ships (and until recently were painted Safety Orange), but otherwise were identical. Also, the current new Tasars are no longer one design as the centreboard casing has been changed by the builder and, at the moment at least, there is no method of retrofitting the case into older hulls. It is now a faired shape that has done away with the rubber block inside that appears to make the new hulls slight faster, but more importantly, point higher.

Currently a former NS14 champion and his wife are also in the Tasar fleet. They are at the pointy end but haven't pulled off a big win, yet.

The navy boats were all red hulled.

Father/Son sailing still works when they are older, even if occasionally the son thinks he knows better now:
investigator563.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=902

Select to expand quote

Ramona said..
The navy boats were all red hulled.

Many years ago when I got my first Tasar, a very worn out ex-navy boat, I went to my first regatta. Filling out the entry form, I put down the colour of the hull as red. About an hour later a gentleman named Parky came past and proceeded to tell me and the surrounding boat park that my Tasar was not red, but was orange, and DON'T EVER FORGET IT. Parky was ex army so I am not sure if he was colour blind.

The official Tasar red is a much brighter colour, and those that had a red Tasar did not wish to be thought of as having an ex navy boat. On the water, my crew always refer to them as Orange so as not to confuse Navy and Red boats. In the book on the history of the Tasar (Tasar, A Bethwaite Legacy) they refer to them as safety orange as specified by the Navy.

But I agree with you Ramona, they are red.

Select to expand quote

EC31 said..

Ramona said..
The navy boats were all red hulled.

Many years ago when I got my first Tasar, a very worn out ex-navy boat, I went to my first regatta. Filling out the entry form, I put down the colour of the hull as red. About an hour later a gentleman named Parky came past and proceeded to tell me and the surrounding boat park that my Tasar was not red, but was orange, and DON'T EVER FORGET IT. Parky was ex army so I am not sure if he was colour blind.

The official Tasar red is a much brighter colour, and those that had a red Tasar did not wish to be thought of as having an ex navy boat. On the water, my crew always refer to them as Orange so as not to confuse Navy and Red boats. In the book on the history of the Tasar (Tasar, A Bethwaite Legacy) they refer to them as safety orange as specified by the Navy.

But I agree with you Ramona, they are red.

The navy boats were bought by my "boss", Fuzzy Peck {RIP} when he posted to Canberra to the "grey sponge".

The National 125 is perfect for Father/son sailing in Queensland. A good Association there with plenty of experts around to help and they will be hosting the 2018/19 Nationals, so a great time to get involved. You can race in full configuration (main/jib/spinnaker/trapeze) or in Jib & Main configuration only while learning.
Lighter, faster and more responsive than a Pacer.
Check the website: www.125assoc.com

I am in the same situation. My son is only 8 yrs old and our combined weight is 110kgs. We are sailing inland NSW and a few of the locals are on MG14s. I am deciding between a Tasar or MG14 (without spinnaker or trapeze), my concern with the MG14 (in NS14 mode) is the 'tippy' factor. Thoughts?