Well my roller furler got ripped apart when i got collision .
Crossing my mind to forget roller furler ( cost of replacing ), and install dyneema 10 mm forestay ( and convert my roller headsail into hank on .
Just wonder if anyone install dyneema as forestay and hank on sail ( using soft eyes hank instead brass - dyneema over dyneema , avoiding chafe ).

Hi Kryspen.
For the cost of one stainless stay with swagged fittings you get the assurance that it won't stretch, will attach to the mast and deck fittings properly and that any sail you can get your hands on will have hanks that will clip straight on.
No need to reinvent the wheel here.



gary

The only thing is you can't do the rigging yourself if you have to get metal swages whereas you can do dyneema yourself.

Hi Jules
Kryspen is in Brisbane so there is no real need to do it himself.
However if he want to go that road there are Norseman fittings.
Very easy but pricey.


gary

I don't think your maths is correct. If you go to hanked on you will need multiple headsails. So I'm guessing that's what 3 at 5 grand each so 15K? Plus a new forestay. Plus f*****g around to make it work with dyneema.

Also you're moored on the river yeah? Are you happy lugging wet sails around - how are you going to get them on and off the boat - or do you want them down below with you. It's enough of a pain in the ass in a marina and whilst I wouldn't go furler by choice I swear the hardest part of my sailing day is rolling/flaking sails and then lugging them around.

There's a guy parting out a 40 footer in adelaide - maybe he's got a furler. They come up on Facebook all the time.

Hi JonE
RE: If you go to hanked on you will need multiple headsails. So I'm guessing that's what 3 at 5 grand each so 15K?

Not if you go second hand. I think Krypen is trying to get the boat going until the insurance sorts things out.
www.sailexchange.com.au/collections/jibs

gary

www.sailexchange.com.au/collections/used-furlersEven better

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Kryspen said..
Just wonder if anyone install dyneema as forestay and hank on sail ( using soft eyes hank instead brass - dyneema over dyneema , avoiding chafe ).

Yes, but only for the inner forestay.
You need to be able to re-tension, so you need some form of tensioning assy. Don't just rely on takeup of slack with the backstay, unless your measurements are perfect it will just put your mast rake out of kilter. Use swages and you'd be in the pulpit tensioning every time it gets a bit fresh. (or pay a fortune for SK78 or suchlike). You need a lot of tension to get most of the stretch out, so are your backstay and sidestay chainplates up to opposing the extra tension?
If you dont go for swages or a highfield lever approach then add a 2:1 block system, it's really hard to tension a 1:1 properly.
Make sure any jamming system is good. I had two jammers in line, one on deck and one in the cockpit (as well as a wire forestay). You don't want it opening by mistake/inattention.
Use big hanks with blunt noses (they don't chafe with proper halyard tension). 10mm dyneema is much bigger than wire and in the middle of the night you dont want to be hanking on and find your hank has bitten deep into the dyneema (easy to do).
I wouldn't want to use soft shackles, I'd be praying they all stay in till I got sufficient sheet/halyard tension into it. Besides, what do you do with all the soft shackles when you've unclipped?
I'd just stick with wire and fitting a new furler if you're not going too stir crazy with being parked up. Stick with wire and hanks if you cant afford the furler.
Refitting a furler on wire would be worth the pain and the cost, The first time you want to depower when a nasty little cell comes through, you'll be thanking yourself you kept it a furler.

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julesmoto said..
The only thing is you can't do the rigging yourself if you have to get metal swages whereas you can do dyneema yourself.

I think wire is known and bug free. Dyneema sound good but you are forging new ground - Jules, don't you mean unless you just buy a swaging tool. I did and had no problem. Also for doing the safety rail.

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julesmoto said..
The only thing is you can't do the rigging yourself if you have to get metal swages whereas you can do dyneema yourself.

That's what i was thinking. Watching Righ doctor on tube on how to do this, including stretching method . But even replacing forestay after 5 or more years would probably still be cheaper than furler , not sure about dineema cost later on.
The possible positive, it can be fix with spare dineema anywhere, no need specialised equipment or rigger.

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Trek said..

julesmoto said..
The only thing is you can't do the rigging yourself if you have to get metal swages whereas you can do dyneema yourself.

I think wire is known and bug free. Dyneema sound good but you are forging new ground - Jules, don't you mean unless you just buy a swaging tool. I did and had no problem. Also for doing the safety rail.

Well, I can do dyneema by myself or employ rigger for about $100 per hr ( minimum ), plus not purchasing swagin tool.
Basically i want to stop using furler , did have problems with that in most implement situations.
Hank on with slab would be quicker to drop and reef i presume.
Just wonder if anyone did the conversion .

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Trek said..

julesmoto said..
The only thing is you can't do the rigging yourself if you have to get metal swages whereas you can do dyneema yourself.

I think wire is known and bug free. Dyneema sound good but you are forging new ground - Jules, don't you mean unless you just buy a swaging tool. I did and had no problem. Also for doing the safety rail.

Just checked info about crimping swaging fittings on SS wire. The tool available ( Bunnings ) is more for copper sleeves on wire. The proper riging crimping of swags on SS wire require industrial hydraulic cripmer - ( high load on wire ).
Stalock is not really available now.
Looks like dyneema forestay.
When my forestay was ripped apart , the force of impact pull wire from mechanical ( similar to stalock ) swag.
Top is still attached to mast, need to go up there and take it down.

I got my swaging tools from Whitworths. About the furler versus hanks. I had a Mottle 33 with a Furler which saved a lot of space downstairs because I didn't need to store the headsails down there. But it jammed sometimes and one very annoying time in a gale so I got fed up with it, took it off and got my sail maker (at Drummoyne) to re-cut it to a decent shape put hanks on it. The boat sailed way way better and dropping it was guaranteed if needed and very quick and easy. The downside stowing it downstairs, especially if it was wet. But my vote is for hanks any time.

Ok just to be clear here I have not put a dyneema forestay on my trailer sailer and neither do I have a furler because people say they are problematical when masts are constantly raised and lowered and transported.

I have a number of headsails for my smaller TS so to put different hanks on them to suit dyneema would be reasonably expensive and I don't want to do this. I do notice however that second hand Etchels sails are a dime a dozen and they use non-abrasive hanks although obviously the boat needs to be an appropriate size to use these.

I have only done the upper shrouds at this point as a suck it and see exercise. I am at the Whitsundays now and just rigging up today. Hopefully I got most of the stretch out of it in my front yard at home.

It's certainly was relatively simple and avoided the use of professionals or the purchase of fancy swaging tools. Regular swaging tools are not adequate for fittings on stainless steel rigging although Stalock and the equivalent brand whose name escapes me would be a possibility.

I haven't messed with the rigging on my North shore 38 yet as the rigging is not yet 10 years old although it will be in another couple of years.

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Trek said..
I got my swaging tools from Whitworths. About the furler versus hanks. I had a Mottle 33 with a Furler which saved a lot of space downstairs because I didn't need to store the headsails down there. But it jammed sometimes and one very annoying time in a gale so I got fed up with it, took it off and got my sail maker (at Drummoyne) to re-cut it to a decent shape put hanks on it. The boat sailed way way better and dropping it was guaranteed if needed and very quick and easy. The downside stowing it downstairs, especially if it was wet. But my vote is for hanks any time.

My idea is to have reefing slabs on my headsail avoiding storage below ( just bag on deck ).
Previously my furler jam in 20 + wind, I drive in circles so my headsail wrap itself around furler. Not present .

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julesmoto said..
Ok just to be clear here I have not put a dyneema forestay on my trailer sailer and neither do I have a furler because people say they are problematical when masts are constantly raised and lowered and transported.

I have a number of headsails for my smaller TS so to put different hanks on them to suit dyneema would be reasonably expensive and I don't want to do this. I do notice however that second hand Etchels sails are a dime a dozen and they use non-abrasive hanks although obviously the boat needs to be an appropriate size to use these.

I have only done the upper shrouds at this point as a suck it and see exercise. I am at the Whitsundays now and just rigging up today. Hopefully I got most of the stretch out of it in my front yard at home.

It's certainly was relatively simple and avoided the use of professionals or the purchase of fancy swaging tools. Regular swaging tools are not adequate for fittings on stainless steel rigging although Stalock and the equivalent brand whose name escapes me would be a possibility.

I haven't messed with the rigging on my North shore 38 yet as the rigging is not yet 10 years old although it will be in another couple of years.

Hank on fittings, instead of brass they are soft hank on which is dyneema over dyneema, that avoids chafe. Also there is available anty chafing sleeves for dyneema stays ( can be spliced in around spacing eyes ).
Defenetely I'm going avoid furler .
I've got 39 ft S & S defiance, single handed , stay on board.

Kryspen & Jules
how'd your insurance company take it when you told them you were putting a Dyneema forestay on your boats?
Mike

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Magpiemike said..
Kryspen & Jules
how'd your insurance company take it when you told them you were putting a Dyneema forestay on your boats?
Mike

I don't insure the trailer sailer.

I think going to hanks is not a good idea. If you had a bad furler then look around for a good secondhand quality one. I bought mine for $400 23 years ago secondhand and it works a treat. Sails don't set better on hanks, sails don't care how they are attached to the forestay. My advice is to look through Gumtree and Marketplace and wait for a good furler. Then clean up its bearings and install it. As for rigging prices, do the removal and replacement yourself to save a bundle. I have tried Dux on my trailer sailer and will be doing wire for the big boat. Dux sounds good but can be tricky. Cheers Phil

Just to give a different perspective, removing my furler and changing to hanks was one of the best things I've done. In my view in addition to removing complexity, the combination of weight reduction and not having a sail that needs to deal with a large range of winds means that the boat can deal with more canvas on hanks than if it was a furler. I only have three sails for cruising, a lightweight J1, a J4 and a storm jib. The J4 is good for 9-45knots with the main reefed and the storm jib above that. Its much easier changing the J4 for a storm jib than if I had to deal with a furler. Changing from the J1 to the J4 is usually done in light winds < 10 knots and not a big issue. My boat has a fractional rig with a small jib, different issue if you have an IOR boat that is driven by a genoa. Although if I still had Currawong I'd probably go back to hanks.

Also attached is a shot of David Hows's Silver Ferns inner forestay, its dyneema with soft hanks and snaps. It is pretty much continuously sailing and whilst this is used quite a bit, there is no visible wear. However they have a stainless steel forestay with furler. I haven't seen any boats doing hard miles with a dyneema forestay.

I'm pretty sure that Muir Marine at Manly still makes stainless steel rigging to order and its not that much.

Appreciate all for suggestions and comments . So far I'm still sitting on my anchor , Brisbane River . Have not received any quotes for repairs yet .
Andrew from AWM come aboard to personally look at the damage.
He's comments was , everything from now will be taken on and need to be fixed properly and have to be taken on dry at Wynnum Manley probably.
The quote for replacing furler was about $6000 dollars !!!
Rigging cannot be done until stainless rail and bow section be fixed .
So far it's the patient time waiting for quote.

I personally wouldn't use Dyneema for a forestay. Dyneema has a relatively low melting point. A spinnaker sheet that escapes a pole beak and wraps hard against the forestay would bring your mast down in a heartbeat. In kiteboarding, we see melted lines often where two lines cross with some tension and friction and they snap instantly. I know the diameters are different, but so are the loads.

Be wary.

DM

It's not a black and white choice between hanks / furler or wire/dyneema. At the moment I'm trying to get best of both. On my boat there's a 140% on the furler. Currently I'm creating a dynema removable Solent stay ( to replace my hated Highfield lever with 10mm cable solent stay) that will use a hanked 90% or storm jib to give me choices.