Here us a story about Showtime and Gunrunner has rolled and is dismasted.
www.afr.com/life-and-luxury/cars-bikes-and-boats/sydney-hobart-yacht-sinks-amid-post-apocalyptic-fire-smoke-and-winds-20200106-p53p53


www.mysailing.com.au/offshore/gun-runner-dismasted-during-delivery-from-sydney-hobart

AFR subscribers only

There is a bit of discussion on Sailing Anarchy about this with some input from the designer of the boat saying that his company and the original builder of the boat have no connection with the replacement modified keel that appears to have come off

Regards Don
forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/212443-showtime-capsize-on-return-trip/

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saltiest1 said..
AFR subscribers only

I was able to read it found through a google search

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Donk107 said..
There is a bit of discussion on Sailing Anarchy about this with some input from the designer of the boat saying that his company and the original builder of the boat have no connection with the replacement modified keel that appears to have come off

Regards Don
forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/212443-showtime-capsize-on-return-trip/

Two different boats, Showtime and Gunrunner.

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UncleBob said..

Donk107 said..
There is a bit of discussion on Sailing Anarchy about this with some input from the designer of the boat saying that his company and the original builder of the boat have no connection with the replacement modified keel that appears to have come off

Regards Don
http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/212443-showtime-capsize-on-return-trip/

Two different boats, Showtime and Gunrunner.

Hi UncleBob

Sorry about the confusion with my post but I was referring to Showtime where the keel came off and the crew ended up in a life raft not Gunrunner which lost its mast but the crew motored the boat into Eden

Both boats were on their way back home from Hobart after the race

Regards Don

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twodogs1969 said..
Here us a story about Showtime and Gunrunner has rolled and is dismasted.
www.afr.com/life-and-luxury/cars-bikes-and-boats/sydney-hobart-yacht-sinks-amid-post-apocalyptic-fire-smoke-and-winds-20200106-p53p53


www.mysailing.com.au/offshore/gun-runner-dismasted-during-delivery-from-sydney-hobart

I found it too with a google search.
Interesting personally as my wife and I were on that boat two years ago.

I was told today Gunriunner had to motor back out of Eden because of the fires

Comments about Showtime on this thread are very interesting, particular the discussions between the owner and the designer

forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/203249-sydney-to-hobart-2019/&page=26&tab=comments#comment-6848674

Starting at #2526

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Ilenart said..
Comments about Showtime on this thread are very interesting, particular the discussions between the owner and the designer

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/203249-sydney-to-hobart-2019/&page=26&tab=comments#comment-6848674

Starting at #2526

Yes, if you decide you know better than the original designer, beware! They lengthened and lightened the keel, and IMHO they focused on the righting forces, and forgot about the extra hydraulic (water flow) load on the longer keel in rough seas. Plus maybe fabrication faults.

Fyi see an excellent summary article on keel fatigue analysis here.

www.kj-engineering.com.au/yacht-design-composites/keel-fatigue-analysis

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Yara said..

Ilenart said..
Comments about Showtime on this thread are very interesting, particular the discussions between the owner and the designer

forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/203249-sydney-to-hobart-2019/&page=26&tab=comments#comment-6848674

Starting at #2526

Yes, if you decide you know better than the original designer, beware! They lengthened and lightened the keel, and IMHO they focused on the righting forces, and forgot about the extra hydraulic (water flow) load on the longer keel in rough seas. Plus maybe fabrication faults.

The new keel was designed by Andy Dovell, who is highly qualified and has designed many, many keels. It is quite unlikely that he fell into such a basic trap. If you decide you know better than a highly qualified and experienced designer like Andy, beware!

By the way, I don't think it was a case of "we think we know better" but rather one of changing the conditions in which the boat was designed to perform to its maximum.

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Chris 249 said..

Yara said..

Ilenart said..
Comments about Showtime on this thread are very interesting, particular the discussions between the owner and the designer

forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/203249-sydney-to-hobart-2019/&page=26&tab=comments#comment-6848674

Starting at #2526

Yes, if you decide you know better than the original designer, beware! They lengthened and lightened the keel, and IMHO they focused on the righting forces, and forgot about the extra hydraulic (water flow) load on the longer keel in rough seas. Plus maybe fabrication faults.

The new keel was designed by Andy Dovell, who is highly qualified and has designed many, many keels. It is quite unlikely that he fell into such a basic trap. If you decide you know better than a highly qualified and experienced designer like Andy, beware!

By the way, I don't think it was a case of "we think we know better" but rather one of changing the conditions in which the boat was designed to perform to its maximum.

The basic principles of engineering apply, no matter how qualified the designer is. Sometimes designers do what the customer wants, and not what they recommend. It is hard to say no, but if the designer has not got control of the manufacturing/QC, it is the best way to go.
If you read the paper on fatigue failure in the previous post, the allowable stress for a fabricated keel drops dramatically compared to a solid keel. This was the change made.

But why on earth are you sitting there and slinging **** at Dovell when you have no idea what stresses and forces he allowed for? Have YOU see the remains of the boat? NO! Have you seen the keel fabrication drawings? NO! Have you seen the result of an investigation? NO! Have you seen the approval drawings from an outside certifier (which were obtained)? NO!

You are throwing a very grave charge of professional negligence risking lives and you have not got the faintest shred of evidence to back up your claims. There could have been fabrication issues with the keel, perhaps issues with the boat structure, earlier damage, or other causes. For you to decide Dovell got it wrong is very poor form.

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Chris 249 said..
But why on earth are you sitting there and slinging **** at Dovell when you have no idea what stresses and forces he allowed for? Have YOU see the remains of the boat? NO! Have you seen the keel fabrication drawings? NO! Have you seen the result of an investigation? NO! Have you seen the approval drawings from an outside certifier (which were obtained)? NO!

You are throwing a very grave charge of professional negligence risking lives and you have not got the faintest shred of evidence to back up your claims. There could have been fabrication issues with the keel, perhaps issues with the boat structure, earlier damage, or other causes. For you to decide Dovell got it wrong is very poor form.

Sit down and have a cup of tea Chris. Nobody is making allegations of negligence. I am just talking basic design concepts, and the difficulties designers face. The general comments were based on changes reported on sailinganarchy.

My comments on changing original designs follow those of L Francis Herresshoff who said if you change his design you will spoil it. Also if you change a design then it is no longer a "Bloggs 42" or whatever. This can reduce the re-sale vale.

Lastly, flaming the writer, rather than responding to the points made in a post, is the sort of thing that chases away good folk like Morningbird.

You did in fact state that you believed that Andy "forgot" a factor, which is probably professional negligence. If I am "flaming" you by pointing out that you have no evidence for your very serious allegation of professional negligence, then so be it.

Pointing out that you have no evidence for your claim IS responding to those points.

If you don't want to people to be flamed, then don't flame people by saying that you believe someone made a massive professional blunder that endangered lives.

My comment was "they" forgot, and made no mention of the designer. Anyway it was prefaced by IMHO. It was based on comments made by the owner on Anarchy, who did indeed not mention inertia or hydraulic loadings, but focussed on righting moment.
Enough already. Move on.

Custom work is just that. Owner has to know that and take on responsibilities of trying to reinvent the wheel.

Sure the engineer has to do a good job however all he/she can do in any sitiuation is theorise the likely outcomes. Unless boat was strenuously tested before sailing, which I think is almost impossible, there is going to be risks.

Custom build a street car into drag car and sometimes the engine will go pop. Performance mods always push the boundaries and shorten the lifespan of the object. Anyone who is in the industry of performance knows this. The owner should know this and I assume was told the risks.

If you chose to mod your boat where lives are at risk and money settles to the bottom of the ocean then suck up the consequences.

Offered without comment...

"In this report, Jason Ker of Ker Yacht Design offers some clarity to the question."

www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2020/01/09/designer-clarifies-cause-of-keel-failure/

Has anybody heard if the boat is still afloat

Regards Don

Hi Don,
The hull was apparently still watertight, so yes, an even money chance it's still out there. Without a keel, I can't imagine a Ker40 righting itself, so if she's comfy floating around inverted , I'd expect there's a good chance she'll be found. Abby Sunderland's Wild Eyes turned up a good year or two? after she bailed after getting rolled in the SO.

I have no idea what they do when they do find her. That's be a mongrel of a tow with the rig still in the boat .

I am amazed at the amount of speculation and comments that have been made about the failure on the net without the boat being recovered so it would be interesting if it was recovered and a definite answer found

Regards Don

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Donk107 said..
I am amazed at the amount of speculation and comments that have been made about the failure on the net without the boat being recovered so it would be interesting if it was recovered and a definite answer found

Regards Don

The owner published some details of the mods, and there was a good description after the rollover, so a fair bit of information to go on.
These days most modern boats have highly stressed hull/keel joints, and if you own or sail in one of those, I guess you would be interested in any reported failure. It is unlikely we will ever get a definite answer, even if the boat is recovered.

For the tow I would assume that the boat would be righted (during suitably calm seas and winds), the mast removed, the hull pumped out and sandbags of suitable total mass put down below on top of the keel floors to stabilise it and allow the tow. For sure not an easy job and obviously needs planning but salvage operators these days do it well.

Obviously a superb effort by the crew to get into the life raft, and especially by the individual who unsecured the life raft from the upside down hull - thank goodness all crew were saved.

As regards the definite answer the report into the 2002 incident as below obviously makes sobering reading, but the definite answer was clear - fabrication not in accordance with the design.

cdn.revolutionise.com.au/site/t08nujjqfqrjwygn.pdf

So on recovery it is expected that suitable engineering and metallurgical examinations will be completed on the keel bolt secured keel plate and everything else.

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AzureF305 said..
Offered without comment...

"In this report, Jason Ker of Ker Yacht Design offers some clarity to the question."

www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2020/01/09/designer-clarifies-cause-of-keel-failure/

interesting comment about him wishing to ban welded keels couldn't agree more seems like a lot of load on a very small area slight imperfections would be catastrophic