Has anybody else had issues with Delta type anchors failing to hold in soft mud?
After reading a few anchor tests I put a new 16 kg Delta on my 31 footer thinking it was overkill but should be super effective given that I use all 10 mm all chain rode and usually put out at 6 times the depth or more. Despite this I have had real difficulties setting it in areas with soft mud where the old Manson plow would have been as happy as a pig in the black stuff. The areas were Refuge cove and the Lane Cove River where it is really super soft sludge.
I am thinking of dropping tandem anchors in these areas in future by attaching my 6kg Bruce to the front of the Delta with a short chain. Is this the way to go? or should I pick up another plow or spade to use in these conditions?
Any advice or comments would be great.
Thanks
Bill

We found the delta less than effective in poorer holding or stronger winds. We switched to an oversize Manson Supreme and have found it excellent.

Cheers

Bristol

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Bristolfashion said..
We found the delta less than effective in poorer holding or stronger winds. We switched to an oversize Manson Supreme and have found it excellent.

Cheers

Bristol

Thanks Bristol
I looked at the MS anchors. I was a bit concerned the roll bar might be an issue with my bowsprit set up and there was a fair difference in price, but I might have to re consider the Manson.

I too found that a delta anchor was pretty darn useless in soft mud type bottoms, went to the Sydney boat show a few years ago and saw the rocna stand where the claims were all wonderful, yes mate we know your boat, all you need to sleep safely is our 15 kg wonder anchor, so I got one, no it's not what they would have you believe. It has problems resetting after a shift, doesn't particularly like soft soupy mud, always came up backwards full of mud (well after all it does resemble a shovel). I was not particularly impressed, although it was far better than the delta.
Saw an add for Sarca Excell, called the Australian manufacturer detailing my boat and Rocna experience and was told (naturally) how much better their product was etc etc and they then offered to fully refund the purchase price if I didn't find their product lived up to the claims.
Long story short, I bought the recommended size Excell, have been using it for years now with absolutely no problems.
My advice would be call Sarca in Victoria, discuss your boat and concerns and follow the advice offered, I did and have been happy.
Just a happy camper, not a salesman.
Cheers.

For mud, and only mud, I have read many times that a Danforth or Fortress (set at 45deg fluke angle) provides superior holding, including tests by the US Coast Guard. But it means you have to carry an extra anchor just for that substrate (although the Alu version is often suggested as a handy kedge given it's low weight).

It will be a hassle swapping main anchors at the bow in choppy conditions.

+1 for Uncle Bob's Sarca Excel experience. I have a number 3 and it has held my 28 footer in sand and in mud, both times about 35 knots gusting higher. The only time it did not hold was at Kent Bay, Flinders Island, where the weed is so thick the poor thing came up as a complete green ball. Locals say only fisherman anchors will hold there.
Cheers, Graeme

When you just bought a delta anchor and see this post....
The rusty danforth will stay in the locker then!

Sarca excell is almost identical to a Delta. If the delta wont hold it's pointless switching to an excell, both are plough anchors and they do that well.

Manson supreme for me
expensive but sooooo worth it

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lydia said..
Manson supreme for me
expensive but sooooo worth it

And far cheaper than hitting something!

Positive for Lewmar Delta, the soft mud could be tricky, but in normal sand type bottom, my 16 kg holds a high windage 37 footer very well. The only non holds I have experienced are in weed area's.
10 mm chain is pretty big for the anchor and way too big for that size boat, I would imagine that should not be a negative for holding power though?
As said by another poster, Fortress pattern are known to excell in mud with the blades set correctly.
Do you use a springy snubber, that can really help, and I would expect it to really improve soft mud performance!
cheers Richard

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Ramona said..
Sarca excell is almost identical to a Delta. If the delta wont hold it's pointless switching to an excell, both are plough anchors and they do that well.

Granted they do look similar, however the difference in performance is extreme. If one has had no experience with a product perhaps one should refrain from commenting on it's performance.

My 40 foot boat came with a 16 kg Lewmar delta. I have lots of trouble getting it to set, in both soft mud and clay. Your technique needs to be very good, with no load applied to the anchor until you have most of the chain out. Then apply a gentle load to set. If it starts to drag then you need to start the whole process again. Once set it seems to hold OK, but I have little faith in it.

i have purchased a Manson Supreme to replace the Delta, but have not yet fitted it.

From Practical Sailor Jan 2019
The difficulty setting suggests that at least one anchor, the Rocna, might have landed upside down and that the self-righting effect of the roll bar did not work in a soft seabed. The result also suggests that this might be a problem for other concave-type anchors that have roll bars but lack a weighted toe. As further evidence of this, the Manson Supreme, which has a roll bar, but also has a weighted toe, did yield higher holding numbers.

www.practical-sailor.com/blog/anchor-design-for-soft-mud

Interesting and timely article with an explanation of why anchoring in soft mud is not what some anchors are actually designed to do.
So it would seem that some anchor can't roll into a "digin" position in soft mud.
Whereas a Danforth will land flat every time and allow the flukes to dig.

Gary

The best anchor in the world is the March anchor , currently in the battle over patten designs . Lucky for me I found a Manson supreme for my last yacht cruise while diving in the Whitsundays , my second choice of anchors now!

Two of my boats came with Lewmar Deltas. I had trouble with them holding even in light conditions on mud & even more so on weed. I anchor overnight frequently but don't claim to be an expert with technique. I relaxed and slept well on both yachts after changing to Rocnas.
I have a nice Delta as a garden decoration. Very happy with it there.

Posted without further comment.

If your dragging in mud that's a good sign you don't have enough chain out ! If in doubt through it all out. Not worth keeping it on board like many do.

On our recent trip to Tassie I fell out of love with our Mansom Supreme. It dragged twice, once after a 150 degree shift and 25 knots and once in a straight 30 ish gust. Then I couldn't get it to hold like it used to, it could grab in really hard and jerk the boat. Eventually after the last drag I replaced it with the Mansom CQR which held well.

Neither anchor let us sleep all that well and it may be that we have to upsize the anchors (45 pounders on a 4000kg cat which is at the margins of accepted sizing).

The strange thing is that the Supreme used to have to be dug out of half of the bottoms with a vertical chain and some forward from the engine. You would get this great dip from the bows as the boat struggled to remove the anchor. For the last year and a half in Tassie it has never had to be dug out this way. There were a couple of times we found it hard to set and swapped to the CQR at times. I can't see any deflection and there is no rust of damage to the anchor. It just seems tired of holding on like it used to. Maybe away from Tassie's weed beds and thin sand it will work better. I hope so. Maybe it doesn't like the cold water. It didn't hold that well in Eden either as I recall.

One problem with my recollection is that I now back down on the engine with full throttle in reverse from out twin outboards. This is because I hate dragging at night. We used to have only one outboard so even after waiting a while, this has changed how hard to anchor is pulled after setting. But she still hasn't been dug out for ages - it perplexes me greatly. And we never dragged the Supreme and now we can't trust it, yet all looks exactly the same.

cheers

Phil

The only time our Manson Supreme failed to grab, the point had gone thru the middle of a large oyster shell which prevented it digging in. We run a large anchor (25lb) on a compass 28 with 30m 6mm chain then rope. It's worked well.

Cheers

Bristol

That is weird
mind you it is Tasmania.
Someone once compared anchoring in parts if the Schouten Passage as like trying to anchor in a bucket of ball bearings while at Recherch? the sand is as hard as concrete and other parts like Waterhouse Island the bottom is like pieces of slate.

Super Sarca for me when setting the anchor it stops the boat dead has never dragged

I guess we can only relate our own experiences Termite and hopefully you'll fell better informed and can make a judgement on that. My Mantus anchor has been bomb proof in a variety of Tassie conditions, fine sands, course sands, muds (but not particulary soft) and clays. In seagrass bottoms, to super heavy weed bottoms off Schouten Island in deep water, crowded conditions, with short scope and a big roll and many locations south as far as Rechearch. It has handled winds up to 30 knots and and half our trips end up with either 90 degree or 180 degree direction changes, sometimes two 180 degree changes (it's Tasmania!). It has never dragged. The only time it didn't set first time was in Missionary bay when the tip speared a scallop shell, so it had to be hauled up to clear the shell off. 45lb Mantus anchor on 39ft fin keel sailboat that dances around a lot in wind, 30ft 8mm HT chain and 80m rope rode, in almost every situation I'll have all the chain out + rope in order to add some elasticity to the rode. I have a reliable anchor alarm and I spleep well in all but really high winds, when I'll wake occasionally in particularly violent gusts and visually check the boat position on the ipad beside my bed just to ensure it's ok and then go back to sleep. I've used a Sarca Excel for only a short period and it set and performed well in the limited usage I gave it.

I chose the Mantus anchor after watching the SV Panope videos, in my estimation it was one of the top anchors overall and I particulary liked that it reliably reset too. The tester's only criticism of the anchor was that the shaft was a bit lighter than others. His is a heavy displacement boat, so maybe that's a valid point?

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UncleBob said..

Ramona said..

Granted they do look similar, however the difference in performance is extreme. If one has had no experience with a product perhaps one should refrain from commenting on it's performance.

For many years I used a SS Delta on my fishing vessel when purse seining at night over a hard sand bottom. It worked OK after a lot of tuning and testing in wet sand at the foreshore. I had to add to the "wings " to get it to self right and added more lead. I had been using a SS Bruce I had made but one night I lost it. The Bruce is a fine anchor and held well but there were many hours of labour in the construction. The delta was quick and easy to build.
Anchors are a big business and as such companies have to make a decent product at a reasonable price. People will whinge on forums if they don't work well. Bang for the buck means that Chinese made Rocnas will always be good value. Manufacturers always read these forums too and if we wait long enough we will hear from the Sarca manufacturer who has graced these pages previously. There are people out there that just want the best anchors no matter what the cost and we have examples like the Spade and the Ultra to cater for these. The Spade does not always fit easily on the bow of some vessels so this leads us to the Ultra which is my favourite. I can't afford one of course so I built a replica. The Ultra has a hollow stock and a weighted tip and always lands correctly. Up at my mates place yesterday and he was welding the stock up on his replica and he was using a hollow triangular shape for his stock, mine is a SS tube and skin monocoque. The secret to the effectiveness of high holding anchors is the weighted sharp point and the sharpness of the leading edge, File it as sharp as you can. The Bugel anchor started all this modern anchor stuff and I notice it's still a standard fitment Amel's.
anchors.synthasite.com/bugel-anchor.php
Some boat porn for you. Unfortunately not mine!

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Ramona said..

UncleBob said..

Ramona said..

Granted they do look similar, however the difference in performance is extreme. If one has had no experience with a product perhaps one should refrain from commenting on it's performance.

For many years I used a SS Delta on my fishing vessel when purse seining at night over a hard sand bottom. It worked OK after a lot of tuning and testing in wet sand at the foreshore. I had to add to the "wings " to get it to self right and added more lead. I had been using a SS Bruce I had made but one night I lost it. The Bruce is a fine anchor and held well but there were many hours of labour in the construction. The delta was quick and easy to build.
Anchors are a big business and as such companies have to make a decent product at a reasonable price. People will whinge on forums if they don't work well. Bang for the buck means that Chinese made Rocnas will always be good value. Manufacturers always read these forums too and if we wait long enough we will hear from the Sarca manufacturer who has graced these pages previously. There are people out there that just want the best anchors no matter what the cost and we have examples like the Spade and the Ultra to cater for these. The Spade does not always fit easily on the bow of some vessels so this leads us to the Ultra which is my favourite. I can't afford one of course so I built a replica. The Ultra has a hollow stock and a weighted tip and always lands correctly. Up at my mates place yesterday and he was welding the stock up on his replica and he was using a hollow triangular shape for his stock, mine is a SS tube and skin monocoque. The secret to the effectiveness of high holding anchors is the weighted sharp point and the sharpness of the leading edge, File it as sharp as you can. The Bugel anchor started all this modern anchor stuff and I notice it's still a standard fitment Amel's.
anchors.synthasite.com/bugel-anchor.php
Some boat porn for you. Unfortunately not mine!

Ramona, I was not questioning your experience with delta anchors, I agree that the sarca excell bears a strong resemblance to one however I was pointing out that it's performance is way superior to the delta.
When purchased my boat was fitted with a delta dragomatic , replaced with a Rocna that was much better but not as good as the manufacturer claimed it was, which was replaced with the Excell. My experience with these three anchors on the same boat in the same locations has demonstrated to me that the Excell is in fact far far superior to any delta, genuine or copy, despite the apparent similarities.
Cheers, Bob.

Ground tackle for an Adams 28; 3766 kg net, approx. 5000 kg gross weight:

- 10kg Rocna anchor,
- 16kg Manson CQR anchor,
- 12kg Fortress sand anchor,
- two small grapnel anchors for tender,
- two small parachute anchors,
- 1m very heavy 15mm chain,
- 40m 3/8in close link chain,
- 10m 3/8in chain,
- 110m 12mm nylon rode,
- 40m 12mm nylon rode,
- two 25m lengths of 10mm nylon trip lines with foam buoys.
All the above with appropriate size and braking strength shackles, all shackles seized with s/s wire when in use.

With this gear l never had problem to anchor and sleep safely using an anchor alarm on my phone and tablet to boot.
Well, that is my idea of proper ground tackle.

The video was fairly interesting right to the last few minutes when the chap mentioning, that he based his final decision on a subjective reason of " the look of the anchor".
This reasoning l found hairraisingly idiotic, - and imo - ruined the whole video.
This imbecile remark was akin to his child's opinion, who chose the fortress anchor as her pick on its similarity to the starwars spaceship. Strewth!

For a serious cruiser there is no such thing as too much ground tackle.

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sirgallivant said..
Ground tackle for an Adams 28; 3766 kg net, approx. 5000 kg gross weight:

- 10kg Rocna anchor,
- 16kg Manson CQR anchor,
- 12kg Fortress sand anchor,
- two small grapnel anchors for tender,
- two small parachute anchors,
- 1m very heavy 15mm chain,
- 40m 3/8in close link chain,
- 10m 3/8in chain,
- 110m 12mm nylon rode,
- 40m 12mm nylon rode,
- two 25m lengths of 10mm nylon trip lines with foam buoys.
All the above with appropriate size and braking strength shackles, all shackles seized with s/s wire when in use.

With this gear l never had problem to anchor and sleep safely using an anchor alarm on my phone and tablet to boot.
Well, that is my idea of proper ground tackle.

The video was fairly interesting right to the last few minutes when the chap mentioning, that he based his final decision on a subjective reason of " the look of the anchor".
This reasoning l found hairraisingly idiotic, - and imo - ruined the whole video.
This imbecile remark was akin to his child's opinion, who chose the fortress anchor as her pick on its similarity to the starwars spaceship. Strewth!

For a serious cruiser there is no such thing as too much ground tackle.

Sirvig, I wonder how you would decide between two items (any items you like to name) that both met the same requirements, both performed equally in exhaustive testing and you needed to make a decision on which you would acquire ?
I reckon that a subjective assessment of which appealed to you the most is how most of us would decide.

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sirgallivant said..
Ground tackle for an Adams 28; 3766 kg net, approx. 5000 kg gross weight:

- 10kg Rocna anchor,
- 16kg Manson CQR anchor,
- 12kg Fortress sand anchor,
- two small grapnel anchors for tender,
- two small parachute anchors,
- 1m very heavy 15mm chain,
- 40m 3/8in close link chain,
- 10m 3/8in chain,
- 110m 12mm nylon rode,
- 40m 12mm nylon rode,
- two 25m lengths of 10mm nylon trip lines with foam buoys.
All the above with appropriate size and braking strength shackles, all shackles seized with s/s wire when in use.

With this gear l never had problem to anchor and sleep safely using an anchor alarm on my phone and tablet to boot.
Well, that is my idea of proper ground tackle.

The video was fairly interesting right to the last few minutes when the chap mentioning, that he based his final decision on a subjective reason of " the look of the anchor".
This reasoning l found hairraisingly idiotic, - and imo - ruined the whole video.
This imbecile remark was akin to his child's opinion, who chose the fortress anchor as her pick on its similarity to the starwars spaceship. Strewth!

For a serious cruiser there is no such thing as too much ground tackle.

wow there would not be room for the missus if I had 5 anchors in my boat like you...

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Ramona said..
Sarca excell is almost identical to a Delta. If the delta wont hold it's pointless switching to an excell, both are plough anchors and they do that well.

That makes zero sense.

They are both plough and there the similarity ends. They are very definitely not the same nor do they behave the same. That akin to saying all spade anchors are also the same.

I have both on the boat and blind Freddy could see the stark design differences. The Sarca Excel is the main anchor and the Delta is there as a backup/ kedge if we ever go there.

There is compelling stuff on the Sarca site, even if the videos seems like they are straight from a 70's Leyland Brothers show. They do get the point across. The video posted by UncleBob is a good watch.

Can someone read all the comments in this thread , and then tell me which is the best anchor ?

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sirgallivant said..
Ground tackle for an Adams 28; 3766 kg net, approx. 5000 kg gross weight:

- 10kg Rocna anchor,
- 16kg Manson CQR anchor,
- 12kg Fortress sand anchor,
- two small grapnel anchors for tender,
- two small parachute anchors,
- 1m very heavy 15mm chain,
- 40m 3/8in close link chain,
- 10m 3/8in chain,
- 110m 12mm nylon rode,
- 40m 12mm nylon rode,
- two 25m lengths of 10mm nylon trip lines with foam buoys.
All the above with appropriate size and braking strength shackles, all shackles seized with s/s wire when in use.

With this gear l never had problem to anchor and sleep safely using an anchor alarm on my phone and tablet to boot.
Well, that is my idea of proper ground tackle.

The video was fairly interesting right to the last few minutes when the chap mentioning, that he based his final decision on a subjective reason of " the look of the anchor".
This reasoning l found hairraisingly idiotic, - and imo - ruined the whole video.
This imbecile remark was akin to his child's opinion, who chose the fortress anchor as her pick on its similarity to the starwars spaceship. Strewth!

For a serious cruiser there is no such thing as too much ground tackle.

I think I can see where most of your gross weight is! I watched that 40 minute anchor video that did not have either Rocna anchor in it! Most anchor setting videos compare other brands of anchors to Rocnas or Spades, that was very weird.

There are several really good anchoring videos made by Sail magazine and others and I don't want to get into an anti Peter Smith discussion but he has a point when it comes to comparing anchors. Independent tests even come up with weird results at times.

www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/independent-performance-testing.php