Ok , here is my veiw on this discussion , the last is word starting with d is for your benefit frant .


for coastal cruising or even crossing oceans i would suggest most people would prefer to be sailing a yacht with rudder protection of some sort .

www.rm-yachts.com/en/rm-1360 bit of ply wood for you Frant

Shogun was a 47.7 not 44.7. Now Ocean Skins. They are a quantum leap up in size to the 44.7 just as a 44.7 is over the 40.7. First 44.7 Alacracity took the double in the last Bris2Noumea race and a very tricked up 44.7 has won the 2007 Bermuda race.been a few divisional S2H wins by 44.7's as well. I guess the issue is that no one is going to fully pimp a production boat and put a crew of top pros on board so probably correct to say that a production boat will never win S2H overall.

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FreeRadical said..
Interesting design differences!



Yeah, lots of lost power?

I wonder when they will start making concave hulls with twin keels there wide enough to be catamarans

HG. My factory is located next door to the old Walker Boat Co in Geelong and I watched many of the Walker H28's under construction. Kaan Walker was a friend of mine and took me on the first sailpast on opening day in a ferrocement nutcracker in about 1969. My eldest son owns a Savage built timber H28 so even though I personally prefer an epoxy composite hull with carbon rig I do have an affinity for boats as a thing of beauty.

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SandS said..


Ok , here is my veiw on this discussion , the last is word starting with d is for your benefit frant .


for coastal cruising or even crossing oceans i would suggest most people would prefer to be sailing a yacht with rudder protection of some sort .

You can buy condoms for rudders so protection not a problem.

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Frant said:
"I guess the issue is that no one is going to fully pimp a production boat and put a crew of top pros on board so probably correct to say that a production boat will never win S2H overall."


Not quite, a Ben 40 Two True won o'all in 2009, and a Ben 40.7 First National won in 2003.
In '94, a Bashford Howison41 called Raptor won o'all. In '76 a farr 1104 called Piccolo won.

Could a pimped production boat still win? The right boat and crew will always have a chance, just look how well Hicko did last year with basically a full corintian crew and a boat that won in '93.

A stock Currawong 30 has won the SYD/Hobart and I am fairly sure Cole 43's have too. SS34 obviously. Cruiser racers of the earlier period were a bit more racer than cruiser. Now the boats are designed more for harbour racing and marina living and appealing to the better half.

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frant said..
HG. My factory is located next door to the old Walker Boat Co in Geelong and I watched many of the Walker H28's under construction. Kaan Walker was a friend of mine and took me on the first sailpast on opening day in a ferrocement nutcracker in about 1969. My eldest son owns a Savage built timber H28 so even though I personally prefer an epoxy composite hull with carbon rig I do have an affinity for boats as a thing of beauty.

frant,
I can remember Walker having a production ferro yacht built in a female mould years ago I thought it was called a Nutcracker. I thought it was about 24 foot too, there was one for sale on eBay a couple of years ago. Very little info available and certainly no photos, this is about all I can find. I remember them as having very thin hulls.

ybw forum archives.
"I have a ferro boat. Now lets start again. Ask whoever it is who replies to your questions how much real first hand experience they have had with ferro boats ! It seems there is a game of "whispers" going on where the same old info is recycled by well meaning people. MY BOAT IS 29 FOOT TOTAL LENGTH.
It weighs in at 3.5 tons and thats with a ballast ratio of just short of 50%!
Compare that to another type of building material and you may get a shock.
It has a 3/4 keel.
The hull is 3/8 inch thick (not a misprint)
I have watched while an identical section of hull to my boat from a sister boat
was placed with the curve up and stood on, then jumped on, till the curve
flattened to the floor. The piece was 2ft X 3ft and the curve was about 2inches.
This piece has been used for years doing this demonstration to dispell myths.
Ferro can flex. What it does not like is sharp pointed hard things. (ie jetty bolt
threads sticking out ,but what does?)
My boat is 37 years old and is in fantastic condition, which is not due to previous
owners. Ferro can be very robust.
Due to the prejudices that abound ferro can be extrodinary value.
Ferro in most cases is the easiest of all types of boats to repair.

Off my soap box.
The site "ferro boats.com" hasn't changed for ages and the "forum" is inactive. There is another site in Norway? but it is not in English.From my searching of the net, ferro means water tanks and free form housing. The bare hull should be coated with some form of epoxy paint first as enamel (alkyld) type paints react with the concrete causing paint blisters. After epoxy you can treat it like a fiberglass boat .Epoxy glue (not polyester) will fasten bulkhead cleats and other bits very well. The more structual, the larger the surface area you should glue to your hull. Glue it wet on wet straight to clean gently roughend concrete. Try to track down other ferro boat owners and go talk to them one on one. See if you can have a look at there boats, you may be suprised .Have fun

marty_dean@yahoo
"IDLER" 29ft X 7ft6inches
Nutcracker
Designed by Kan Walker
Built by the Walker boat co.
Geelong , Australia."

My apologies for the thread drift!

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frant said..
Shogun was a 47.7 not 44.7. Now Ocean Skins. They are a quantum leap up in size to the 44.7 just as a 44.7 is over the 40.7. First 44.7 Alacracity took the double in the last Bris2Noumea race and a very tricked up 44.7 has won the 2007 Bermuda race.been a few divisional S2H wins by 44.7's as well. I guess the issue is that no one is going to fully pimp a production boat and put a crew of top pros on board so probably correct to say that a production boat will never win S2H overall.

ENVY II won the Bris2Noumea twice. She is an alloy Peterson 42 (IOR 2 tonner) built in 1982.

The first time she won it in 1982 she waited in Noumea for 5 days for the rest of the fleet to come in!!

The race started and they poked their noses out past Cape Moreton where it was so rough all except ENVY II ducked back in and anchored up behind the wrecks and got into their duty free grog.

She is now chartering again up in Cairns I believe. I am sure if she was put back into racing trim she would give any of the same sized "modern" yachts a very good run for the money.

Ramona. the Nutcracker was a 28ft full keel boat with a cabin that rose from the sheer line without any side deck. You might be referring to a Ragamuffin which was a fin keel boat about 25ft. The boats were built over a male plug without any rebar cage. The chicken wire was pressed onto the male plug and plastered up from the outside. Fortunately the Walker H28 (30 ft) were built in glass. The production shifted from Moolap to Fyansford and was totally destroyed by fire. The old factory in Moolap is next door to mine. It still has WALKER BOAT COMPANY FERROCEMENT VESSELS emblazoned on the side wall.
in the lat 70s I studied Mechanical Engineering at Melb Uni with the intention of transferring to Naval Architecture in Sydney in third year. My fluid mechanics lecturer. Prof Joubert insisted that I stay at Melb and study under him if I wanted to take up yacht design. My final year project was to build an ocean wave generator which was fitted to the towing tank and we did see some pretty good swell in the tank. The Prof could do tank testing of his designs in a real world environment. The next years guys got to build a beach and study surf.
Both men were pretty innovative and I am sure would be using current construction materials with leading edge designs if still working today. Kaan Walker passed away a few years ago. Peter Joubert is I believe still alive and was interviewed for a book on his boats recently.

i went on to specialise in corrosion engineering specialising further in catholic protection and then set up a sacrificial anode manufacturing plant. For Mr Crusoes benefit many of the conclusions drawn in other topics are unfounded.

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frant said..

SandS said..


Ok , here is my veiw on this discussion , the last is word starting with d is for your benefit frant .


for coastal cruising or even crossing oceans i would suggest most people would prefer to be sailing a yacht with rudder protection of some sort .

You can buy condoms for rudders so protection not a problem.

if you think a condom will help you when you hit something with your rudder....... you may as well use a real condom , because you will be fuccced

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SandS said..

frant said..

SandS said..


Ok , here is my veiw on this discussion , the last is word starting with d is for your benefit frant .


for coastal cruising or even crossing oceans i would suggest most people would prefer to be sailing a yacht with rudder protection of some sort .

You can buy condoms for rudders so protection not a problem.

if you think a condom will help you when you hit something with your rudder....... you may as well use a real condom , because you will be fuccced

Do you want to have a serious discussion with a D then.
i suppose you are going to add that any fin keel boat is inherently unsafe cause the keel might fall off.
WRG rudder it is essentially protected by a huge skeg called a keel. But yes rudder failure at sea is for me ( and I won't speak for most people) one of the biggest areas of concern. I pull the rudder each 2 years and inspect for structural integrity. When did you last check yours btw? When offshore I also carry a Scanmar emergency rudder which is fitted using brackets in a similar fashion to a wind vane rudder. These were developed by the Vendee or Volvo boats. Also carry a rogue that is a secondary backup system.
I guess you could say that I wear a condom and withdraw on time

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frant said..
Ramona. the Nutcracker was a 28ft full keel boat with a cabin that rose from the sheer line without any side deck. You might be referring to a Ragamuffin which was a fin keel boat about 25ft. The boats were built over a male plug without any rebar cage. The chicken wire was pressed onto the male plug and plastered up from the outside. Fortunately the Walker H28 (30 ft) were built in glass. The production shifted from Moolap to Fyansford and was totally destroyed by fire. The old factory in Moolap is next door to mine. It still has WALKER BOAT COMPANY FERROCEMENT VESSELS emblazoned on the side wall.
in the lat 70s I studied Mechanical Engineering at Melb Uni with the intention of transferring to Naval Architecture in Sydney in third year. My fluid mechanics lecturer. Prof Joubert insisted that I stay at Melb and study under him if I wanted to take up yacht design. My final year project was to build an ocean wave generator which was fitted to the towing tank and we did see some pretty good swell in the tank. The Prof could do tank testing of his designs in a real world environment. The next years guys got to build a beach and study surf.
Both men were pretty innovative and I am sure would be using current construction materials with leading edge designs if still working today. Kaan Walker passed away a few years ago. Peter Joubert is I believe still alive and was interviewed for a book on his boats recently.

i went on to specialise in corrosion engineering specialising further in catholic protection and then set up a sacrificial anode manufacturing plant. For Mr Crusoes benefit many of the conclusions drawn in other topics are unfounded.

Love you to comment on my 'Silver Chloride Electrode - Hull Anode Requirements' thread Frant. It could cost me more money if I don't get it right!

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frant said..
Ramona. the Nutcracker was a 28ft full keel boat with a cabin that rose from the sheer line without any side deck. You might be referring to a Ragamuffin which was a fin keel boat about 25ft. The boats were built over a male plug without any rebar cage. The chicken wire was pressed onto the male plug and plastered up from the outside. Fortunately the Walker H28 (30 ft) were built in glass. The production shifted from Moolap to Fyansford and was totally destroyed by fire. The old factory in Moolap is next door to mine. It still has WALKER BOAT COMPANY FERROCEMENT VESSELS emblazoned on the side wall.
in the lat 70s I studied Mechanical Engineering at Melb Uni with the intention of transferring to Naval Architecture in Sydney in third year. My fluid mechanics lecturer. Prof Joubert insisted that I stay at Melb and study under him if I wanted to take up yacht design. My final year project was to build an ocean wave generator which was fitted to the towing tank and we did see some pretty good swell in the tank. The Prof could do tank testing of his designs in a real world environment. The next years guys got to build a beach and study surf.
Both men were pretty innovative and I am sure would be using current construction materials with leading edge designs if still working today. Kaan Walker passed away a few years ago. Peter Joubert is I believe still alive and was interviewed for a book on his boats recently.

i went on to specialise in corrosion engineering specialising further in catholic protection and then set up a sacrificial anode manufacturing plant. For Mr Crusoes benefit many of the conclusions drawn in other topics are unfounded.

Thanks frant. It must have been the Ragamuffin I was thinking of. I wish I had saved the eBay ad for the picture. I can remember reading about it in Seacraft years ago and was surprised how thin the hull was.

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frant said..

SandS said..

frant said..

SandS said..


Ok , here is my veiw on this discussion , the last is word starting with d is for your benefit frant .


for coastal cruising or even crossing oceans i would suggest most people would prefer to be sailing a yacht with rudder protection of some sort .

You can buy condoms for rudders so protection not a problem.

if you think a condom will help you when you hit something with your rudder....... you may as well use a real condom , because you will be fuccced

Do you want to have a serious discussion with a D then.
i suppose you are going to add that any fin keel boat is inherently unsafe cause the keel might fall off.
WRG rudder it is essentially protected by a huge skeg called a keel. But yes rudder failure at sea is for me ( and I won't speak for most people) one of the biggest areas of concern. I pull the rudder each 2 years and inspect for structural integrity. When did you last check yours btw? When offshore I also carry a Scanmar emergency rudder which is fitted using brackets in a similar fashion to a wind vane rudder. These were developed by the Vendee or Volvo boats. Also carry a rogue that is a secondary backup system.
I guess you could say that I wear a condom and withdraw on time

Wow , you win frant ....... you remove your rudder every two years !!!! . You really do have a maintenance schedule Most people would only dream of. How many years have you owned this boat frant ?

FYI , I have never removed my rudder , but i check it when i paint the boat which is sometimes 1 and sometimes 2 years .

Yes i agree, if I owned a yacht with a free hanging rudder I would be hoping the fin keel would be enough to support it as well .

I wish you well with your contraception methods

What i assume he does is removes the rudder and places it flat on two tressals in the shade , he then prepares a lush garden salad and seafood platter for all the willing Danish and Dutch backpacker students that have been slaving away learning the art of wet rubbing and antifouling the bum of his french mass built production yacht.

After the re-launch party they will be invited to learn the unique MOB drill that includes A hip flask , Valium, and a knife. Very simular to the Donald crowhurst departure!

I was wandering around the Marina's in hobart yesterday and on the slip at the DSS there was a Sailmaster like mine but the rear edge of the keel had been extended and faired to a point and the skeg behind the keel had a extension piece mounted below it to a depth just above the bottom of the rudder and a strap bracket had been fitted to the bottom of it and it extended back to the leading edge of the rudder and the rudder pivoted on it

The chap who owned it said it was original but the extension piece was slightly thinner than the skeg and it was obviously a add on so it would be interesting to know the history of it

Regards Don

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southace said..
What i assume he does is removes the rudder and places it flat on two tressals in the shade , he then prepares a lush garden salad and seafood platter for all the willing Danish and Dutch backpacker students that have been slaving away learning the art of wet rubbing and antifouling the bum of his french mass built production yacht.

After the re-launch party they will be invited to learn the unique MOB drill that includes A hip flask , Valium, and a knife. Very simular to the Donald crowhurst departure!

Back to your drinking Southace. Your blather is repetive.
I also pull the rig and check the keel bolts. I guess you and Sands can blather on but when you also clock up 20,000 sea miles you might see the need for inspection and maintenance.
The rudder is checked because of a known defect in the Beneteau rudder bearing system. This comprises of a self aligning inner nylon bearing housed in an anodised aluminium outer race epoxied into the hull. The rudder stock has a stainless steel bearing collar epoxied onto the rudder stock. There have been cases where the outer race has suffered corrosion between the nylon self aligning bearing face. The expansion of corrosion product causes the nylon to seize onto the stainless collar causing extremely tight steering. In same cases the rudder can become frozen. The application of grease to a bearing is really quite a minor maintenance procedure.
I have also fitted an anode system to the outer race and grease keeps the bearing self aligning.
Any Beneteau owners can feel to PM me if they wish to purchase an anode kit and instructions.

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frant said..

The rudder is checked because of a known defect in the Beneteau rudder bearing system. This comprises of a self aligning inner nylon bearing housed in an anodised aluminium outer race epoxied into the hull. The rudder stock has a stainless steel bearing collar epoxied onto the rudder stock.there have been cases where the outer race has suffered corrosion between the nylon self aligning bearing face. The expansion of corrosion product causes the nylon to seize onto the stainless collar causing extremely tight steering. In same cases the rudder can become frozen.

I recall seeing a video on You Tube about that.

Would it have been thine perchance??

Hi Frant

I don't suppose you remember if they were building Sailmasters there at the time or just the H28's

Regards Don

Don. Only H28 in Moolap. The guys who took over, McDowell and Venn built a trailer sailer in Fyansford. We cast the rudder cheek assembly in our factory for a while. Now there is a rudder that I would have serious concerns about

And Cisco 'twas not me.