Ok so a friend of mine just bought a Marauder 27. I've never really like their lines but having sailed the boat a few times I'm growing to like the boat. It is surprisingly stiff and you can put the rail under and she doesn't do the big spinning saucer roundup that some boats of that size can do.

Here's where I need some advice:

The wheel is a pain in the arse. A big person can't fit comfortably behind it without one's head hitting the back stay and nor can you reach the winches and mainsheet easily.

He'd much rather have a tiller but the hardest bit will be modifying the rudder stock to fit a yoke and tiller assembly

Attached is a photo of the top of the rudder stock. I'm hoping on the off chance that someone here may have seen this same fitting and knows how to do the necessary modification to put a tiller on.

It appears to be all bronze.

Understandably on a 10k boat he doesn't want to throw too much money at it.

Can any body help? Thanks!

The Marouder 27 is a fine little yacht. I would want to see whats under the cockpit floor first before making any comments. That looks like it already has a emergency steering set up/slot. A tiller will be a vast improvement.

I don't know about your boat , but when I converted mine it looked very similar . I made a fitting to go over the rudder post and just bolted it on . Then removed the steering pedastal it took less than a day . Was not sure I would like the tiller but the decision was made for me when my friend threw out the pedastal on a run to the tip , he kept the nice varnished wheel with brass inlay by hanging it in his bar lol . Lots more room in the cockpit . Have you looked thru every nook and cranny in the boat , the emergency tiller might be hiding some where .

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Ramona said..
The Marouder 27 is a fine little yacht. I would want to see whats under the cockpit floor first before making any comments. That looks like it already has a emergency steering set up/slot. A tiller will be a vast improvement.

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oldboyracer said..
I don't know about your boat , but when I converted mine it looked very similar . I made a fitting to go over the rudder post and just bolted it on . Then removed the steering pedastal it took less than a day . Was not sure I would like the tiller but the decision was made for me when my friend threw out the pedastal on a run to the tip , he kept the nice varnished wheel with brass inlay by hanging it in his bar lol . Lots more room in the cockpit . Have you looked thru every nook and cranny in the boat , the emergency tiller might be hiding some where .

Yep , agree, it looks like an emergency tiller setup. Ringle, the emergency tiller could be a simple tube bent near 90 degrees with a rod welded in the end to fit into the slot you can see.
If you find it, use this as your jig to make a tiller. You'd just need to put some thought into a locking nut assy on it to turn it into a tiller.
Any chance of pics from under as per Romana's comment?

Hi Ringle

In the photo you posted where is the fitting in the cockpit sole located as it looks like it is just in front of the cabin entry

Regards Don

I initially thought the same thing Don, but on reflection it would have to be the transom one would think.

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shaggybaxter said..
I initially thought the same thing Don, but on reflection it would have to be the transom one would think.

Hi Shaggy

How is that Pogo of yours going

Common sense says it should be at the back of the cockpit (you can see the cockpit drains in the photo as well) but it is hard to see what the big piece of timber in the photo would be for at the transom

Regards Don

I'm guessing it's the gas bottle locker with a vent/drain out the transom.

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Ramona said..
I'm guessing it's the gas bottle locker with a vent/drain out the transom.

Hi Ramona

That makes sense

Regards Don

I am very interested in this as I had exactly the same idea. Which boat is this? The Green Frog in Sydney? The one with the flaking blue hull paint?
It looks like there has to be a through-bolt to keep the slot closed and hold the tiller in place. Maybe the bolt is under the deck.

One aspect which could be a problem is the force required on a tiller. The shape of the rudder is "finny" and there is a long part at the lowest depth. As there is no hydro dynamic balance this could make it necessary to use the mechanical advantage of the wheel.
If you can measure the distance travelled by the outside of the wheel to produce a 15degree helm angle, that will tell you how far the end of the tiller has to travel to get a similar force. You will however, have the advantage of less friction.

Would love to see a pic of the quadrant arrangement, and the underside of the deck.

I think it might be worth checking whether the other Marauder 27's have tillers. I remember when Kevin Sheppard first designed this yacht it was meant to be a classy cruiser and a bit upmarket. The previous owners of my yacht went onto a Cole 35 and now have downsized to a Marauder 27 [with a wheel]. There is no balance ahead of the shaft but the skeg will certainly assist. The Currawong is similar but has some material ahead of the shaft at the bottom and is very light to steer. It's going to depend a lot on how long the tiller is. I steer sitting with my head next to the cabin top.

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Ramona said..
I think it might be worth checking whether the other Marauder 27's have tillers. I remember when Kevin Sheppard first designed this yacht it was meant to be a classy cruiser and a bit upmarket. The previous owners of my yacht went onto a Cole 35 and now have downsized to a Marauder 27 [with a wheel]. There is no balance ahead of the shaft but the skeg will certainly assist. The Currawong is similar but has some material ahead of the shaft at the bottom and is very light to steer. It's going to depend a lot on how long the tiller is. I steer sitting with my head next to the cabin top.

have a couple here at sandgate i look after used to be a fleet of them that raced out of here in there hey day never seen one with a wheel though that is what attracted my attention to the post beautiful small keel boat well balanced quick in the light for there era . i would think a wheel would make them horrid to sail taking up a lot of space in small cockpit forcing the skipper to sit further aft ruining the boats beautiful fore and aft balance .

I had a Peterson 42 years ago. Flat topper IOR 2 tonner that was tiller steered. When she was balanced properly she could be steered with fore finger and thumb.

I believe any yacht that length or less that needs wheel steering for mechanical advantage is a poorly designed yacht.

Centre cockpit yachts require wheel steering because of the distance between steering position and rudder post. That is the second reason I would never own a centre cockpit yacht. The first reason I would never own a centre cockpit yacht is that the cockpit robs the yacht of internal volume where it needs it the most.

A tiller steered yacht with the tiller straight on top of the rudder post is immune from mechanical steering failure provided the tiller stock is robust enough.

I tend to think the fitting of wheel steering to the Marauder 27s was a marketing strategy to sell the yachts to the egotistical type of sailor who could not afford a bigger yacht.

Seems to be no sailing sense in it.

A mate of mine (a experienced sailor) has a Marauder 27 (that was originally a charter yacht in Sydney) with a wheel and a Manitou 32 with a tiller and he bought both of them from Sydney to Port Huon with a couple of my other mates who at the time had limited sailing experience

One of them made a comment to me after the trip across on the Manitou that he preferred the wheel on the Marauder over the tiller on the Manitou and when we were motoring out for a race past my boat on its mooring he commented that mine only had a tiller instead of a wheel

I wonder if the decision to fit a wheel to a small yacht was to appeal to sailors with limited experience (especially charterers) who may have more familiar and comfortable steering a boat with a wheel and perhaps also because it gave the perception that it was more of a proper yacht because it had a wheel over a tiller

Regards Don

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Donk107 said..
A mate of mine (a experienced sailor) has a Marauder 27 (that was originally a charter yacht in Sydney) with a wheel and a Manitou 32 with a tiller and he bought both of them from Sydney to Port Huon with a couple of my other mates who at the time had limited sailing experience

One of them made a comment to me after the trip across on the Manitou that he preferred the wheel on the Marauder over the tiller on the Manitou and when we were motoring out for a race past my boat on its mooring he commented that mine only had a tiller instead of a wheel

I wonder if the decision to fit a wheel to a small yacht was to appeal to sailors with limited experience (especially charterers) who may have more familiar and comfortable steering a boat with a wheel and perhaps also because it gave the perception that it was more of a proper yacht because it had a wheel over a tiller

Regards Don

Depends how much you use a auto pilot Donk for me any way its all choices but ill give the wheel ago if I don't like it Ill remove it and go back to the tiller sell the bits off for B.O.A.T.$
I just found the tiller took up to much room in the cockpit personal choice for me and finding shade in the tropics while sailing I dont need a skin cancer thanks and a bimini will fit just fine for me

I think the design decision was made on the basis of the fashion at the time. Compass was offering the C29 with wheel steering as the upmarket version of the C28. The Marauder 27 was meant to be an upmarket boat. Also the wheel provides a bit more cockpit space.

For my POV I dont want to be right in the stern of a boat, copping the worst of the spray, wind, and vertical motion. Also, having always sailed tiller boats, I find my instinctive reactions are in the wrong direction when I get behind a wheel. Probably that can be unlearned.

Hi HG

I don't think there is a right and wrong answer to whether tiller or wheel is the way to go and it all depends on the boat and what the owner prefers (a bit like Holden and Ford)

Both of the boats i have owned have been tiller and i have not had a lot of experience on a wheel apart from the occasional steer before or after a race on the boat i crew on during the race season

On the night race we do each year (The pipe opener) we have about a three hour motor back to Port Huon after the end of the race at three in the morning and September in Tassie can be freezing and i would have preferred to be hiding behind the dodger on mine steering with the tiller than to be standing behind the wheel at the back of the boat in the cold

Normally though a smarter person than me would have been tucked up in a warm bed instead of out sailing

Although out boats are very similar with your mizzen mast it would make you cockpit a bit more busy than mine and the wheel might work better than the tiller for what you want to do

How is it all going, are you having a win with the refurb

Regards Don

Wheels are chosen over tillers by inexperienced or newish sailors as they fell more in control be equating it to driving a car, turn the wheel left to go left and right to go right, whereas a tiller is counter intuitive, push left to go right. The other thing is image, everyone knows that real sail boats and yachts all have a wheel. Personally I prefer a tiller for the feel that it gives.

I just feel that more can go wrong with a wheel. More complex system. Cables etc. More moving parts. I love the feel of the tiller. My mate sailing from europe is having constant problems with his wheel steering. Amongst other things.

Mine hydraulic so just a bunch of orings to deal with
it will probably get a Fleming next year as well

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LooseChange said..
Wheels are chosen over tillers by inexperienced or newish sailors as they fell more in control be equating it to driving a car, turn the wheel left to go left and right to go right, whereas a tiller is counter intuitive, push left to go right. The other thing is image, everyone knows that real sail boats and yachts all have a wheel. Personally I prefer a tiller for the feel that it gives.

I can sail both tiller and helm I don't think it has anything to do with inexperienced / newish sailors. I think big heavy cruising yachts like my own are much more suited with a large wheel for purchase, and can carry a good hydraulic Autopilot . 95 % of my cruising is on Auto pilot and having a tiller and tiller pilot set up would be a pain in the butt.

I have owned both as well. My wife hated skippering the Tasman with tiller but loves the mottle with wheel and finds it easier. So I would agree less experienced people find the wheel easier.
Bigger boats need wheels as the physics of a tiller in a big blow is just to hard and you need the mechenical advantage of the wheel.
But you do loose the feedback from the tiller so for sailing a tiller would be the preferred but in practical on larger boats.

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southace said..

LooseChange said..
Wheels are chosen over tillers by inexperienced or newish sailors as they fell more in control be equating it to driving a car, turn the wheel left to go left and right to go right, whereas a tiller is counter intuitive, push left to go right. The other thing is image, everyone knows that real sail boats and yachts all have a wheel. Personally I prefer a tiller for the feel that it gives.

I can sail both tiller and helm I don't think it has anything to do with inexperienced / newish sailors. I think big heavy cruising yachts like my own are much more suited with a large wheel for purchase, and can carry a good hydraulic Autopilot . 95 % of my cruising is on Auto pilot and having a tiller and tiller pilot set up would be a pain in the butt.

i sail on lots of different boats some with and some without wheels and always prefer the direct feel and simplicity of a tiller BUT heavy displacement long keel over 45 foot need a wheel to get enough mechanical advantage modern extreme beam boats are well suited to a pair of wheels to get the helmsman further outboard so visibility is increased center cockpit as has been said earlier needs a wheel as do other unusual steering locations other than that i think most wheels are installed for peoples personal reasons that dosnt mean it a wrong decision just not one i would make

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HG02 said..

Donk107 said..
A mate of mine (a experienced sailor) has a Marauder 27 (that was originally a charter yacht in Sydney) with a wheel and a Manitou 32 with a tiller and he bought both of them from Sydney to Port Huon with a couple of my other mates who at the time had limited sailing experience

One of them made a comment to me after the trip across on the Manitou that he preferred the wheel on the Marauder over the tiller on the Manitou and when we were motoring out for a race past my boat on its mooring he commented that mine only had a tiller instead of a wheel

I wonder if the decision to fit a wheel to a small yacht was to appeal to sailors with limited experience (especially charterers) who may have more familiar and comfortable steering a boat with a wheel and perhaps also because it gave the perception that it was more of a proper yacht because it had a wheel over a tiller

Regards Don

Depends how much you use a auto pilot Donk for me any way its all choices but ill give the wheel ago if I don't like it Ill remove it and go back to the tiller sell the bits off for B.O.A.T.$
I just found the tiller took up to much room in the cockpit personal choice for me and finding shade in the tropics while sailing I dont need a skin cancer thanks and a bimini will fit just fine for me

HG- Are you going to re-fit the mizzen? Wont you hit your head on the bimini / mizzen boom when standing behind that wheel? Maybe that is why Naima H28 went for their unusual little wheel?

Thanks for all the replies and discussion. I'll try and get more photos.

The fitting I photographed is indeed thr top of the rudder stock and near the stern.

The counterbalance of the rudder blade is one thing we hadn't considered but I hope the boat is small enough for this not to be too heavy.

He only ever sails her 2 or 3 up so the space in the cockpit will be ok. They actually have quite a big cockpit too. One other very annoying feature is the large instrument pod on the cabintop. It is high and blocks the view forward so when we fit a tiller it will make sitting up on the coaming edge easier so as to see forward.

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Ringle said..
Thanks for all the replies and discussion. I'll try and get more photos.

The fitting I photographed is indeed thr top of the rudder stock and near the stern.

The counterbalance of the rudder blade is one thing we hadn't considered but I hope the boat is small enough for this not to be too heavy.

He only ever sails her 2 or 3 up so the space in the cockpit will be ok. They actually have quite a big cockpit too. One other very annoying feature is the large instrument pod on the cabintop. It is high and blocks the view forward so when we fit a tiller it will make sitting up on the coaming edge easier so as to see forward.

That brings up a interesting question

How many people with tillers helm from the combings (this is mentioned a lot in English sailing magazines) with a tiller extention and how many sit on the cockpit seats and hold the tiller in their hand

I personally either sit on the seats when cruising or when i am racing it i tend to stand and lean against the dodger but i have a longer than original tiller

Regards Don

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Donk107 said..

Ringle said..
Thanks for all the replies and discussion. I'll try and get more photos.

The fitting I photographed is indeed thr top of the rudder stock and near the stern.

The counterbalance of the rudder blade is one thing we hadn't considered but I hope the boat is small enough for this not to be too heavy.

He only ever sails her 2 or 3 up so the space in the cockpit will be ok. They actually have quite a big cockpit too. One other very annoying feature is the large instrument pod on the cabintop. It is high and blocks the view forward so when we fit a tiller it will make sitting up on the coaming edge easier so as to see forward.

That brings up a interesting question

How many people with tillers helm from the combings (this is mentioned a lot in English sailing magazines) with a tiller extention and how many sit on the cockpit seats and hold the tiller in their hand

I personally either sit on the seats when cruising or when i am racing it i tend to stand and lean against the dodger but i have a longer than original tiller

Regards Don

donk one of my favorite things is sitting to leeward when steering upwind while racing especially suited to classic yachts as it gives you a great view of the slot and also boats coming up from leeward where collisions will come from this doesn't apply to more modern designs post 1970s where broader stern sections occur as you get good visibility from sitting well out board and can see the luff of the jib the whole main and out from under the main reasonably well . but even when doing start's on these boats i prefer to sit to leeward to watch for other boats . I think a lot of the sitting well outboard to windward comes from people coming up through the dingy classes and trailer boats where righting moment takes precedent over need to see
when cruising its usually wherever the best shade is or the best place to hide from the spray

For some reason other I found my tiller to low and would hit either side on the cockpit seat and reduced the tiller/rudder movement .
Having a long keel and not having the ability to use the rudder against the prop wash when entering a pen was a pain in a cross wind if you wanted to push the bow around.

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HG02 said..
For some reason other I found my tiller to low and would hit either side on the cockpit seat and reduced the tiller/rudder movement .
Having a long keel and not having the ability to use the rudder against the prop wash when entering a pen was a pain in a cross wind if you wanted to push the bow around.

Hi HG

Did your tiller pivot up and down or was it fixed height

Regards Don

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Donk107 said..

HG02 said..
For some reason other I found my tiller to low and would hit either side on the cockpit seat and reduced the tiller/rudder movement .
Having a long keel and not having the ability to use the rudder against the prop wash when entering a pen was a pain in a cross wind if you wanted to push the bow around.

Hi HG

Did your tiller pivot up and down or was it fixed height

Regards Don

A nice feature on the tiller on my boat is a safety friction stop for the lower position of the tiller. It can freely pivot, but the bottom stop is only held by friction. So, if I fall on it, as happens on occasion, instead of breaking the tiller, the friction lock lets go. A good safety feature built in by the first owner, who was also an engineer! Maybe he was also a fellow clutz.

I use to get a bost to get the tiller now I would want a good tiller extension 43 years later!