Out sailing today. Now I sail solo with hanked foresails so whatever I start with is what stays.
20 foot masthead , swing keel bal./ disp. 24%.
So this morning tied on number one ,full main . Had a great run on broad reach but when I turned to go home on a beat the troubles started and to be frank I forgot what to do.
In the gusts ,13/15 knots, instead of heeling over and rounding I was being pushed to leeward so much that I reckon if I didn't spill wind I would been facing the other way. Why?
I even checked rudder was fully down.
I had Cunningham on , outhaul tight, traveller car in the middle.
I tried pulling everything on tight expecting to round up but no the bow kept falling away . I know the shrouds are a bit loose .
By letting out mainsheet and headsail she would come back on course ( rounding). Was it just to much headsail sail ,would putting in a reef help ? I ended up dropping the headsail and motoring .
Suggestions for next time?

Hi BB,
Nothing around the rudder or keel?
On first pass, it sounds like your drag was higher than your lift.
Drag is usually either:
-parasitic (wetted surface)
-lift induced (sail trim)
-wave drag (seastate)

The other alternate is robbing of your lift, typically.
-Under or over sheeted sailplan (in order of priority, are the leach and leeward telltales flying cleanly?)
-Wong AoA to the wind. (course)

For the bow to blow off says to me you don't have enough speed, or more succinctly enough fluid motion over your keel and rudder. The keel is the only lifting force helping you stay up to windward. My best guess is you had something under the boat?

I can be dragging a sheet under the boat and feel the impact on the handling, feels a bit mushy. I have had it before, i lose pointing ability and the boat stalls when you try and increase power. The usual solution is to stall and back up, go forward again.check...stall and back up again, go forward ..rinse repeat.

Cheers,
SB

Thanks SB.
Antifouled few weeks ago, Nothing dragging overboard. However I had NOT lifted outboard which sits beside rudder and on reflection I perhaps had sheets on too tight trying to point as high as pos. Unfortunately my GPS was dead so no idea on speed but from what you say .Even when pushing the tiller way over would not come back until I let out sheets.
Can't remember what tell tails were doing (old age). Hang on no. one doesn't have leech telltails , must fix .
I'll try and replicate next time and get back to you . I was really looking forward to an adrenaline hit not a pita ,oh well.

Hopefully it was just the outboard, at least that's an easy fix!
I always wanted to make an outboard bracket that swung the motor up an in over the transom instead of straight up, just to try and pull weight in off the ends. Spent about a year poking and planning and making roughies, and gave up in disgust, I didn't have the grey matter to accommodate all the angles.

Love to hear how she goes next time :)

Sheet wide with the traveller. Headsail in that sort of breeze and steer with the tuffs. Try and sail the boat flat like it's a dinghy. Bear off slightly for speed and the hydrodynamic lift will have you pointing higher.

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shaggybaxter said..
Hopefully it was just the outboard, at least that's an easy fix!
I always wanted to make an outboard bracket that swung the motor up an in over the transom instead of straight up, just to try and pull weight in off the ends. Spent about a year poking and planning and making roughies, and gave up in disgust, I didn't have the grey matter to accommodate all the angles.

Love to hear how she goes next time :)

I'll let you know. I'm surprised how much influence an outboard hanging off the transom has

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Ramona said..
Sheet wide with the traveller. Headsail in that sort of breeze and steer with the tuffs. Try and sail the boat flat like it's a dinghy. Bear off slightly for speed and the hydrodynamic lift will have you pointing higher.

Of course you are right Ramona . As Shaggy pointed out I was probably stalling the boat. I was supposed to have a new traveller car that was more conducive to solo by now but the retailer took six days to despatch. Hopefully it will turn up tomorrow .

Also move the jib lead back about 6" to allow more twist. If you have a perforated alloy toerail, consider sheeting the headsail to it in strong winds, to open the slot.

Plenty of halyard tension on the Genoa as well. Backstay on tight too. Make sure you have good boat speed after a tack before trying to point.

My money is on the fact you weren't looking at the tell tails on the Genoa and you weren't rounding up, you were probably pointing 10deg or more too low.

As said above, flatten everything, lots of mainsheet and play the traveler while steering to the tell tails, usually with the windward one just lifting as you steer through the gusts

Sailing to the telltails on the Genoa is one thing I know I didn't do .
Having only ever sailed masthead I knew that a 150% Genoa I would be overcanvassed in over 10/12 knots or so solo even though the sail was cut fairly flat for me.
I have absorbed all above and the answer is there . I looked through my old articles and think I might have found an answer . To much sail forward
"
Move the center of effort aft. Trim the mainsheet and boomvang and ease the outhaul and cunningham to increase the main's power. Ease the jib to reduce sail power forward."

HI BB,
If you want to take power out of the jib without changing down, increase you halyard tension. It's very easy to move the draft forward (30% of foot length) or backward (50% of foot length) on a jib, and the more forward the draft the less horsepower.
Moving it forward makes you point better too, but it does narrow your 'groove', making it a bit more work for the helmsman.

If you're wondering how much tension is needed, just check your luff. I know you're solo most of the time, but if you get a chance, set your halyard tension and then get up in the pulpit in front of the jib and look up along the jib luff.
If the luff entry is flat (its really evident) you have too much halyard tension, ease off until the luff line blends back into a nice curve from luff to leach. If it is not evident, increase halyard tension till you start to see it flatten out, and like the old mechanics adage, then back off a turn :)

Cheers,
SB

Here's a quick render of the impact your halyard tension has as to the direction of your llfiting force. As the draft moves forward, so does the direction of the lift, so win /win!

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Bananabender said..
Sailing to the telltails on the Genoa is one thing I know I didn't do .
Having only ever sailed masthead I knew that a 150% Genoa I would be overcanvassed in over 10/12 knots or so solo even though the sail was cut fairly flat for me.
I have absorbed all above and the answer is there . I looked through my old articles and think I might have found an answer . To much sail forward
"
Move the center of effort aft. Trim the mainsheet and boomvang and ease the outhaul and cunningham to increase the main's power. Ease the jib to reduce sail power forward."

150% Genoas are pretty useless they are used as a shade sail. 100-120% is more than adequate for solo sailing.

Yes 150% is a lot of sail to be dealing with by yourself. What is your next size down. As you have experienced it will get overpowered very easily. A smaller headsail will make life so much easier. Tacking,everything. Keep the 150 for when you have some help or become more confident. Obviously the problem is it's very difficult to change when you are by yourself. Those sails put huge loads on the rig very quickly.

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shaggybaxter said..
Here's a quick render of the impact your halyard tension has as to the direction of your llfiting force. As the draft moves forward, so does the direction of the lift, so win /win!

I'll give that a go Shaggy

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Ramona said..

Bananabender said..
Sailing to the telltails on the Genoa is one thing I know I didn't do .
Having only ever sailed masthead I knew that a 150% Genoa I would be overcanvassed in over 10/12 knots or so solo even though the sail was cut fairly flat for me.
I have absorbed all above and the answer is there . I looked through my old articles and think I might have found an answer . To much sail forward
"
Move the center of effort aft. Trim the mainsheet and boomvang and ease the outhaul and cunningham to increase the main's power. Ease the jib to reduce sail power forward."

150% Genoas are pretty useless they are used as a shade sail. 100-120% is more than adequate for solo sailing.

Aww that's a bit rough Ramona. They look good. I loved my Mylar number one on the Bounty even though useless over 15.
Actually I was assuming 150. It started off as approx. 150% but after all the changes for an old man to handle I don't know what it ended up as . I've got it home so will measure it tomorrow

150% Genoa might sounds overkill for fix keellers boats, but
having sailed 23 footer over 8 years, anything over 15 knots wind
I dropped main, big genoa, perfect. Often flying hull speed.
Careful about overpowering, well , easy to handle having fuller.

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tarquin1 said..
Yes 150% is a lot of sail to be dealing with by yourself. What is your next size down. As you have experienced it will get overpowered very easily. A smaller headsail will make life so much easier. Tacking,everything. Keep the 150 for when you have some help or become more confident. Obviously the problem is it's very difficult to change when you are by yourself. Those sails put huge loads on the rig very quickly.

Yes mate I know your right but boy I know I've been for a sail with the Genoa up
I have near new main,jib,assy and this genoa.

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Bananabender said..
Sailing to the telltails on the Genoa is one thing I know I didn't do .
Having only ever sailed masthead I knew that a 150% Genoa I would be overcanvassed in over 10/12 knots or so solo even though the sail was cut fairly flat for me.
I have absorbed all above and the answer is there . I looked through my old articles and think I might have found an answer . To much sail forward
"
Move the center of effort aft. Trim the mainsheet and boomvang and ease the outhaul and cunningham to increase the main's power. Ease the jib to reduce sail power forward."

Sailing to the telltails on the Genoa is one thing I know I didn't do . Theres major your problem

When close hauled , trim up and sail to your head-sail tell-tails , in that situation , pinchup in the gusts .

PS. also having your outboard dragging is a huge problem !!!

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SandS said..

Bananabender said..
Sailing to the telltails on the Genoa is one thing I know I didn't do .
Having only ever sailed masthead I knew that a 150% Genoa I would be overcanvassed in over 10/12 knots or so solo even though the sail was cut fairly flat for me.
I have absorbed all above and the answer is there . I looked through my old articles and think I might have found an answer . To much sail forward
"
Move the center of effort aft. Trim the mainsheet and boomvang and ease the outhaul and cunningham to increase the main's power. Ease the jib to reduce sail power forward."

Sailing to the telltails on the Genoa is one thing I know I didn't do . Theres major your problem

When close hauled , trim up and sail to your head-sail tell-tails , in that situation , pinchup in the gusts .

PS. also having your outboard dragging is a huge problem !!!

I kick myself on both counts. Motor .... lazy. Tell tails...got all caught up
trying out what I read about mainsail trim but reckon it was written for
fractional. Lesson learnt, I hope.

Obviously most issues are already covered but;
1 Was the pivoting swing keel cranked all the way down on the work back upwind - if not the gross lee helm you evidenced could occur.
2 You say the shrouds were loose - if the backstay was also a bit loose the rig could be raked too far fwd and lee helm would result.
3 As per above not sure why you are sailing single handed with the big genoa and full hoist main - suggest set your no3 blade jib and main - if you don't have a no3 suggest get a second hand Etchells jib and cut it down to suit - such a plan suited our 1/4 tonner really well albeit I realise you are 4 foot shorter. Used Etchells jibs are virtually given away...........
4 The comments on headsail luff tension and sail draft and pointing a lot higher (20 degrees???) are a tad effusive.........in very light winds a flat entry headsail is the go as long as it exhausts ok off the leech - as the breeze increases the apparent wind goes a bit aft which is why you need the headsail fullness off the luff to go a bit forward to match it.........the leech exhausting still needs to occur.........
5 The keel acting as the hydrodynamic lift appendage is obviously correct but when sailing upwind the rudder plays a part as well - a really small amount of weather helm going upwind is needed to keep the boat pointing ok and making acceptable speed made good - velocity made good (VMG) in the texts. So this is not tiller breaking and arm extending weather helm and griping to windward as this would be slower than leaving your outboard immersed - just a nice very light load on the tiller to keep the boat heading upwind and not bearing off.........jib and main sheeting obviously play a large part in achieving this, including the right size jib and main, and their flatness as the breeze increases, and traveller down on the main. Obviously reaching your rudder helm loading should be virtually zero.

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r13 said..
Obviously most issues are already covered but;
1 Was the pivoting swing keel cranked all the way down on the work back upwind - if not the gross lee helm you evidenced could occur.
2 You say the shrouds were loose - if the backstay was also a bit loose the rig could be raked too far fwd and lee helm would result.
3 As per above not sure why you are sailing single handed with the big genoa and full hoist main - suggest set your no3 blade jib and main - if you don't have a no3 suggest get a second hand Etchells jib and cut it down to suit - such a plan suited our 1/4 tonner really well albeit I realise you are 4 foot shorter. Used Etchells jibs are virtually given away...........
4 The comments on headsail luff tension and sail draft and pointing a lot higher (20 degrees???) are a tad effusive.........in very light winds a flat entry headsail is the go as long as it exhausts ok off the leech - as the breeze increases the apparent wind goes a bit aft which is why you need the headsail fullness off the luff to go a bit forward to match it.........the leech exhausting still needs to occur.........
5 The keel acting as the hydrodynamic lift appendage is obviously correct but when sailing upwind the rudder plays a part as well - a really small amount of weather helm going upwind is needed to keep the boat pointing ok and making acceptable speed made good - velocity made good (VMG) in the texts. So this is not tiller breaking and arm extending weather helm and griping to windward as this would be slower than leaving your outboard immersed - just a nice very light load on the tiller to keep the boat heading upwind and not bearing off.........jib and main sheeting obviously play a large part in achieving this, including the right size jib and main, and their flatness as the breeze increases, and traveller down on the main. Obviously reaching your rudder helm loading should be virtually zero.

Thanks r13 .
1. Keel all the way down
2. Backstay cranked on but pretty sure shrouds bit loose .
3. I think there's a bit misunderstanding creeping in.
I have a near new jib (3) per class specs. which I always use if I know wind will pick up but when Willy says 5/10 all day I'll fly the Genoa . I can drop it with a down haul from the cockpit .
Sometimes I'll use 3. Plus assy downwind. You didn't use a Genoa on the 24 masthead in light winds?
4. Noted
5. Good info.

I've always found it interesting when beating to windward as to the different approaches on different boats to main and headsail trim. You know when the wind velocity increases through the slot and starts backwinding your mainsail?
I see an array of different approaches, some boats will downchange their headsail, some boats will reef, some will just go up on the traveller, other boats will sail with a small luff bulge, some boats will have the whole mainsail bulging to windward.

I've often found a small luff bulge on the main to be optimal vmg, as long as the backwinding is kept at the luff, say no more than a third of the foot length. I've sailed on other boats where the entire mainsail will be backwinding, it makes me all twitchy as it just looks and feels inefficient.

If it goes past that it's time to downsize the headsail. Yet I have seen other boats happily have the entire main luffing and swear blind the boat is happy and fastest in this mode. I've always believed that the most important part of your sail to have a laminar airflow attached is at the leach, the luff not so much. To minimise drag and to increase lift you want to try and match the windward and leeward air velocities exhausting off the leach, this doesn't need the luff to be part of that laminar flow.

I had to put a new series of telltales in the middle of the upper and mid spans of the main for this reason, as the standard ones were too close to the mast and would get all squirrely if the main started to backfill.

I'd be interested to hear what others have found... do you feel comfortable with a luff bulging when going to windward?

Really good point shaggybaxter on different design boats and different trimming.
Love sailing by headsail telltails and getting boat in the groove.
In Auckland we have gusty breezes so luff the main but the leech is still working. On keelers also dropping the main traveler down. But on trailer sailers also muscle the main sheet in race mode.
Enjoy your sailing

Thanks BBender. The 1/4 tonner was a fractional rigger - Farr 727. Sure we set a no1 genoa in very light winds but never when single handed. That boat was brilliant but always sailed best when a tad under rigged not over rigged - it is a 1974 IOR design where stability was penalised (to a degree...) - we had the cast iron keel later boats had a lead keel. Reaching and running we kept up with far larger yachts.......as they found out in France when 42deg South won the 1975 worlds or whenever it was - when the 2 Kiwi 727's turned up they were derided - at the end of the series after placing 1st and 6th they weren't, and Bruce Farr was on his way. I am sure you are on top of everything.

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r13 said..
Thanks BBender. The 1/4 tonner was a fractional rigger - Farr 727. Sure we set a no1 genoa in very light winds but never when single handed. That boat was brilliant but always sailed best when a tad under rigged not over rigged - it is a 1974 IOR design where stability was penalised (to a degree...) - we had the cast iron keel later boats had a lead keel. Reaching and running we kept up with far larger yachts.......as they found out in France when 42deg South won the 1975 worlds or whenever it was - when the 2 Kiwi 727's turned up they were derided - at the end of the series after placing 1st and 6th they weren't, and Bruce Farr was on his way. I am sure you are on top of everything.

Giant killers back then. I crewed once on a 920 back in the day and tempted to buy her from original owner .(vitamin C).
Ha I wouldn't be flying a Genoa on the fractional rig solo either but the main on a small ts masthead is not the engine.
Actually I had the Genoa at home today and measured it. So , it started as a 150% on paper and after Sailmakers adjustments for an old man on my request has ended up as 130%. It's the new glasses , I could have sworn it was 150.

I think that if trailer sailers had all been mainsail driven and not fashioned like mini IOR racers they still would be popular.

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Ramona said..
I think that if trailer sailers had all been mainsail driven and not fashioned like mini IOR racers they still would be popular.

Never thought of it like that before.
Hmm. That makes a lot of sense.
thanks Ramona

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Ramona said..
I think that if trailer sailers had all been mainsail driven and not fashioned like mini IOR racers they still would be popular.

timpenny 670 , farr 750 , magnum 8.5 , spider 28. , Nolex 25 , nolex 30 . There are more those are just the ones within a 10 radius

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SandS said..

Ramona said..
I think that if trailer sailers had all been mainsail driven and not fashioned like mini IOR racers they still would be popular.

timpenny 670 , farr 750 , magnum 8.5 , spider 28. , Nolex 25 , nolex 30 . There are more those are just the ones within a 10 radius

I had a Status 19 that was mainsail driven and that and the ones you mentioned are still selling well. The 50 other brands from the 1970's that looked like scaled down IOR racers not so much.