Put my Van Der Stadt 24 into the water today only to find a small crack in the hull :(

Turns out the rear of the keel was sitting hard on a timber block on the jinker and the weight of the boat over a period of time...

So back out the water it was... Now to find a mobile repairer here in Western Australia

Has anyone had a similar experience or problem?

Cheers

Not yet....but I have been waiting for the day it happens.

This is more likely a crack caused by running aground. This is a fairly easy repair. I personally would grind the crack out a bit and abraid the area and apply several layers of fibreglass cloth and epoxy resin. Some people might use fiberglass resin and CSM but the epoxy will be guaranteed to stick to the old 'glass.

Select to expand quote

Ramona said..
This is more likely a crack caused by running aground. This is a fairly easy repair. I personally would grind the crack out a bit and abraid the area and apply several layers of fibreglass cloth and epoxy resin. Some people might use fiberglass resin and CSM but the epoxy will be guaranteed to stick to the old 'glass.

Thanks Ramona,Hoping it will be a pretty easy repair, not sure weather to take it on myself or have someone else do it....
Im guessing you can grind it out from both sides and go about fibre glassing the inside first and then outside?
I have some fibre glassing experience but want to make sure i only have to do this job once :)

But of an update... Have ground out the crack and ready to proceed with the repair.. Grinding and sanding is not my idea of fun

Your lucky its most of the repair for grinding would have been on the out side that stuff goes every where

It looks as though the red marked area is quite deep, if this is the case, may I suggest you feather grind a bit more towards the green area till you have a smooth transition and the blue area on the sides of the keel, grind a bit there as well and lay up the glass in this area so that it forms a fillet that transitions from the hull down the keel.

When you come to laying up the glass use woven cloth, not chop strand as that has no tensile strength. Start by using smaller pieces first and then getting bigger as you overlap the first pieces, bearing in mind the final layup should roughly match the shape of the hull so that a minimum of sanding need be done. Use epoxy resin to ensure strong adhesion to the polyester substrate. Any questions just ask.

Select to expand quote

LooseChange said..



It looks as though the red marked area is quite deep, if this is the case, may I suggest you feather grind a bit more towards the green area till you have a smooth transition and the blue area on the sides of the keel, grind a bit there as well and lay up the glass in this area so that it forms a fillet that transitions from the hull down the keel.

When you come to laying up the glass use woven cloth, not chop strand as that has no tensile strength. Start by using smaller pieces first and then getting bigger as you overlap the first pieces, bearing in mind the final layup should roughly match the shape of the hull so that a minimum of sanding need be done. Use epoxy resin to ensure strong adhesion to the polyester substrate. Any questions just ask.

Thanks Loosechange,I knew I had to complete a better transition. I have purchased the West Epoxy system along with woven matting.
Is it best to complete the glassing process in one go or better to layer up the deeper p[art till it fills the transition then layer a larger piece over the top later?

once the glassing is complete what would you recommend as the best filler to bring up to the old gelcoat level?
Cheers

PS; yes HG02 it is horrible :(

I am not sure if it is the same with your construction , but it is widely held that a fair amount of asbestos was used as a filler material in fibreglass yacht construction in some of the older boats , not sure when the practice ceased but just take appropriate precautions when doing this type of work , better safe than sorry

You will only be able to do relatively small laminations, if you try to lay up the lot in one hit it may not hold its shape to well as it might sag and possibly may get very hot, though epoxy is not as bad as poly or vinylester resins in that regard. Start the laminations going from small pieces of cloth to larger overlapping pieces, paying attention to the overall hull shape and try to match that in order to reduce the amount of shaping and material removal you need to do. A brand new Surform file is excellent for removing lots of material, in order to use a Surform wait till the resin has gelled and at that point just before it goes rock hard, it will be like shaping a block of Cheddar Cheese.

Once you have the outside done you will have to do the same on the inside of the hull using the same technique, when done correctly the repair should be stronger than the surrounding hull.

While I have never heard of asbestos being used as a filler material in boat construction the same warning holds true for or grinding and sanding glass fibres, breathe enough of those and the end results will be the same as asbestos ...... Silicosis v Asbestosis .... either way, your lungs will not like you.

As for a fairing filler to use ....why not just use Cabasil or Q-cells to thicken the resin you are using, then file, grind or sand till you are happy with the shape. Bearing in mind that area of the keel has quite turbulent water flow at best, so don't try and go for the perfect shape .... strength is what is important here.

Hi, Im with LoseChange, but instead of filling depresions with limited strenght filler why not build it thicker with woven and best of all human inventions WestSyst and grind of excess to gelcoat level, maybe more work but 1mm whatever filler will never add to strenght as will 1mm woven in WestSyst.
it was mentioned that CSM lacks strenght with epoxess, yes, epoxess do not have ability to desolve binder in CSM and glass strands are not properly saturated in resin.

Theres nothing wrong with Bote cote either its a easy mix and a good product . They also offer a harder filler which you can mix as a e glue and they also offer a sanding filler I think Ive used 8 liters of the stuff and find it really good to use and the results have been excellent.
There all much the same .I think there are only 3 suppliers in Australia for epoxy

Select to expand quote

madmission said..
I am not sure if it is the same with your construction , but it is widely held that a fair amount of asbestos was used as a filler material in fibreglass yacht construction in some of the older boats , not sure when the practice ceased but just take appropriate precautions when doing this type of work , better safe than sorry

This worries me a little Mad mission never ever heard anything about this

Select to expand quote

manitulak said..
Hi, Im with LoseChange, but instead of filling depresions with limited strenght filler why not build it thicker with woven and best of all human inventions WestSyst and grind of excess to gelcoat level, maybe more work but 1mm whatever filler will never add to strenght as will 1mm woven in WestSyst.
it was mentioned that CSM lacks strenght with epoxess, yes, epoxess do not have ability to desolve binder in CSM and glass strands are not properly saturated in resin.

I was not suggesting he fill with just the filler, but rather to use it as a fairing compound when he has finished the laminating and then the shaping.

I remember fiberglass and asbestos mentioned here perhaps?www.trailersailerplace.com.au/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10214
I don't believe it was commonplace. Commonsense dictates any fine particles require proper filtration and ventilation asbestos or not. A quick Google I did when I saw that TSP thread mentioned unexplained mesothilioma cases related to fiberglass boat builders. Not many but I wouldn't test the theory.

You guys really impress with your advice. I wouldn't take on this type of job normally but with the above advice it becomes doable. Thanks.

I always look at any job like this
A large job is made up of many small jobs slipt them up and do a good job on all the small jobs in sequence and then you slowly get through to the other side finished and you will have learn't so much in doing so.

It is very doable, the only variable that has changed is the environment. The process of repair is really no different to the process that was used to lay up the hull in the hull when it was first built. The missing thing here is the mould in which it was laid up that determined the nice finish and shape, now there is a bit sculpting to do to bring it all back to original.

Select to expand quote

HG02 said..

madmission said..
I am not sure if it is the same with your construction , but it is widely held that a fair amount of asbestos was used as a filler material in fibreglass yacht construction in some of the older boats , not sure when the practice ceased but just take appropriate precautions when doing this type of work , better safe than sorry

This worries me a little Mad mission never ever heard anything about this

Image living in a city close to an intersection every car truck braked at that intersection all those truck and cars had asbestos brake material right up till the mid seventies I guess cant remember exactly. Then add all the lead in the fuel of those days,cars accelerating off from those traffic lights . and image how much brake dust is floating in a cities air.
I'm a bushie been down in the city for 13 years now and only a few month in I noticed my nose was not what is was a year before living in the bush.
Theres no livable city on earth I know of

Lead in petrol was never a problem for people, the component added was TEL (Tetra Ethyl Lead) to suppress pre-ignition, TEL when burnt during the combustion process was in a form that posed no risk. During studied conducted around the world it was found that children living in the New Guinea highlands had a higher lead levels in their blood then what kids living in Melbourne had.

Select to expand quote

LooseChange said..

manitulak said..
Hi, Im with LoseChange, but instead of filling depresions with limited strenght filler why not build it thicker with woven and best of all human inventions WestSyst and grind of excess to gelcoat level, maybe more work but 1mm whatever filler will never add to strenght as will 1mm woven in WestSyst.
it was mentioned that CSM lacks strenght with epoxess, yes, epoxess do not have ability to desolve binder in CSM and glass strands are not properly saturated in resin.

I was not suggesting he fill with just the filler, but rather to use it as a fairing compound when he has finished the laminating and then the shaping.

Hi LooseChange, we were talking about cosmetics only, surface apearence and hopefully not exceeding 1mm depth.

Would there be a need to 'fill' at all???
What about just building up (a mill or 2 over) to current level with glass, sand fair then antifoul straight over the top.

Select to expand quote

Toph said..
Would there be a need to 'fill' at all???
What about just building up (a mill or 2 over) to current level with glass, sand fair then antifoul straight over the top.

Agreed, if the work was done carefully there should be no need to fill. I only mentioned it because the OP had asked what he could use.

Select to expand quote

LooseChange said..
Lead in petrol was never a problem for people, the component added was TEL (Tetra Ethyl Lead) to suppress pre-ignition, TEL when burnt during the combustion process was in a form that posed no risk. During studied conducted around the world it was found that children living in the New Guinea highlands had a higher lead levels in their blood then what kids living in Melbourne had.

Then why did they remove it L.C.
When I lived in Tassy coming from Victoria back in the seventies I noticed a change in the fuel supplied in Tasmania than the fuel in Victoria .
Every petrol powered car had the ignition timing move forward towards Top Dead center to stop pinging in Tassy where as in Victoria you could use the manufacturers specification so many degrees before top dead center.
Back the I was informed the petrol companies were experimenting altering the fuel in Tassy

The same reason that they are now telling you that anthropogenic warming is destroying the earth ....... in other words, Bloody Greenies

Select to expand quote

Toph said..
Would there be a need to 'fill' at all???
What about just building up (a mill or 2 over) to current level with glass, sand fair then antifoul straight over the top.

Hi Toph, you said what i wish to say, thanks.

Select to expand quote

HG02 said...

LooseChange said..
Lead in petrol was never a problem for people, the component added was TEL (Tetra Ethyl Lead) to suppress pre-ignition, TEL when burnt during the combustion process was in a form that posed no risk. During studied conducted around the world it was found that children living in the New Guinea highlands had a higher lead levels in their blood then what kids living in Melbourne had.

Then why did they remove it L.C.
When I lived in Tassy coming from Victoria back in the seventies I noticed a change in the fuel supplied in Tasmania than the fuel in Victoria .
Every petrol powered car had the ignition timing move forward towards Top Dead center to stop pinging in Tassy where as in Victoria you could use the manufacturers specification so many degrees before top dead center.
Back the I was informed the petrol companies were experimenting altering the fuel in Tassy

Fuel was and still is supplied in different formulas according to seasonal and regional variations. I'm sure they do guineapig different sectors.

It is a fact. You live in an inner city area and your kid plays in the dirt they will have high lead levels. From exhaust emissions and paint etc. Similarly if you're in Mt Isa, Broken Hill from the mine.

Select to expand quote

LooseChange said..
Lead in petrol was never a problem for people, the component added was TEL (Tetra Ethyl Lead) to suppress pre-ignition, TEL when burnt during the combustion process was in a form that posed no risk. During studied conducted around the world it was found that children living in the New Guinea highlands had a higher lead levels in their blood then what kids living in Melbourne had.

From ice core samples taken in Greenland it has been proven that atmospheric lead content was higher prior to the industrial revolution than what it was when we went away from leaded fuel.

It is attributed to volcanic activity and is probably why New Guinea highland children have the higher lead content in their blood. The live in a high volcanic activity area.

But wouldn't the lead be cumulative?

I remember oh probably 30 years ago, watching a school news programme saying that living in inner Melbourne was the same as smoking a packet a day. What the programme didn't say was if you smoked a packet of ciggies a day AND living in Melbourne, you were doublely screwed.

Just becasue lead levels are high due natural causes (still not good) doesn't mean we should ignore added pollutants.

Thanks everyone for the help and hints.
I'll be doing a bit more sanding and then starting to patch tomorrow. Iv picked up the west epoxy system to use and looking forward to using it.

I'll put some more photos as I progress!

At the start it was very daunting to attempt but though good advice and direction I feel that it's very acheivable

Thanks everyone

There was a segment on TV last week about lead poisoning and crime. Not sure if it was maybe on Compass or Catalyst?

Interesting hypothesis!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27067615