boty said..Chris 249 said..boty said..Chris 249 said..
The caption in the vid says the wooden boat was 11m long. Assuming she's as fast as a KR class (which are similar and popular around the same area) in normal conditions on a 12 hour passage the 32fter will be on anchor with the kettle going while the 36 ft classic, which has less room down below, will still be bouncing around at sea.
I hope to start the restoration of my wooden yacht next month, but more modern designs definitely have their strengths.
i think you may be wrong there in a fresh breeze ior style boats similar to whats in the video of our size normally finish astern of us if you dont believe me check the Gladstone results for this year for pagan tasman seabird 1962 and roller coaster 1980s S&S 36 same length 15 to 35 knot mainly following breeze and beam reach we were drunk by the time they tied up
ims boats of the same size in race trim normally in front by 10 to 15 percent European production race trim same size 5 to 10 percent depending on wind strength
and we were 2 minuites behind jennue 36 10 minuites behind Camille 36 foot long keel
In a fresh breeze, yes good and well-sailed classics like yours can hang in with some IOR boats on a reach. But I referred to "normal conditions", which would include upwind in light airs, square running in a breeze, etc. That information about the comparative speed of an 11m KR yacht compared to a Comfortina 32, by the way, comes from the official German handicap list. The classes have been around for eons and the handicap would come from lots of experience.
We can't really take much notice of instances where one good old boat (yours) sails well against one or two newer boats - I've seen a 420 go past an 18 Foot Skiff but that doesn't mean that the 420 is a faster design than an 18 Footer. You're obviously sailing your boat a lot better than the S&S 36 or the Jeanneau. I've beaten an S&S 36 across the line in my 1968 28 footer, but they were just sailing badly. When they were new and well sailed they did well - one of them beat Ragamuffin/Spirit of Koomooloo across the line in the Hobart!
I sailed the S&S Finnisterre-type Sunstone, which is arguably the most successful "classic" in the past 30+ years with the possible exception of Dorade. We could never keep up with a WELL SAILED modern boat of the same length, even a cruiser-racer. It's been the same story ever since I was a kid and we were NSW Clansman champions, but couldn't beat the top Bonbridge 27 or half tonners. As another example look at Dorade - one of the world's great yachts, very keenly sailed, and yet although she's 53 feet long even in her good races she gets beaten over the line by standard production 36 foot cruiser/racers. In her last Fastnet she finished second in class on IRC but was eight hours behind a Benny 47.7, which is hardly a speedster.
I love the classics but good new boats are quicker.
thanks for the pat on the back about my sailing skills but im not that good we did the paddock from Indian head to s2 Gladstone without a kite as we had blown 2 out in 20 minutes and i wanted 1 left for the run up the drain into Gladstone our irc result was less than stella with a 14 out of 34 boats with wistari another classic wining div 2 irc and placing 4 overall 6 hours in front of us
as to beating koomers we also have done that on 2 occasions in bay races though a fabulous boat (god rest her soul)and very well sailed she seemed to have patchy performance downwind in light air
have only sailed against dorade once not on my own boat but was astounded by her performance and have a mate who crewed on her at hammo he said she is very quick but bogs down badly in heavy chop giving inconsistent results
my point still stands these classic designs still give amazing performance against modern vessels the 2 boats i pointed out for gladstone i consider well sailed though the s&s had less race practice pre race was still sailed well but as is typical of ior boats was losing control in the medium to heavy running the jenneau a regular race boat who normaly beats us in light air always has trouble once the breeze kicks in weather up or downwind
in conclusion it is easy to cherry pick but results talk as i have pointed out
Oh, I'm certainly NOT cherry picking! I've been fascinated by the comparisons between different designs for many years, and in these cases I'm looking at literally decades of data, from five countries, as well as ORCi, IRC, German yardsticks, US PHRF and Scandanavian LYS handicaps. My ratings database goes back to the 1930s - that's not cherry picking!
You're being very modest and generous to your competitors, but as you say, results talk. I think we're pretty much saying the same thing - classics can go very well at times, but as you say the modern cruiser/racers are normally 50 to 10% quicker.
When your sistership Maris, for example, was first and second in her class in the Hobart she finished up to 19 hours behind 1970s IOR boats of the same length. Another sistership, Cherana, finished third in her Hobart class in 1993 and was still 8 hours behind an S&S 34, which is an older, smaller and slower design than the S&S 36. So normally, even when Seabirds are winning trophies they are well behind 36 foot IOR boats.
Dorade is a great boat, but when results talk they prove that in races like the Fastnet and her local events she normally finishes behind standard production 36 footers like J/109s. In her home region she's rated over quarter of an hour slower than a 50ft IOR boat or a Beneteau 47.7 over a 15 mile course, and a couple of minutes slower than a J/109 or Beneteau 36.7 - check the handicaps here at
www.phrfne.org/404.html?404dest=/page/handicapping/asdg.&404rec=/page/handicapping As noted earlier, in the Fastnet she was beaten across the line by J/109s. She's a great boat that goes really well at times, but at you say sometimes she bogs down.
