Sailing down the east coast we often came across Cardinal Markers that just 'didn't seem to be' of value without a chart. They make sense when approaching from the 'ideal' direction but sometimes had we not been using a chart showing the obvious obstruction I feel we could have made a mistake. I have attached an example. If we approach the East Cardinal marker from the east (Position 'A') then we are safe to pass on the east side... we cannot pass to the north or the south because we would end up on the west side (in the example shown the actual obstruction was actually on the south side of an east cardinal marker which doesn't make sense to me!). If I am not using a chart, how wide a berth or how big should the radius be if in the example my intention was to arrive at point 'X' ? (See greyed arc which I would gather would be the no go zone) Is there a standard that is used to place them a certain distance from a known obstruction or are they just not something you can navigate by without a chart? (or perhaps I am not reading them correctly?) Like I said with the luxury of a chart it is blindingly obvious but if you can imagine not having a chart I feel it could be quite confusing.

Two things come immediately to my mind.

1. You are using Navionics. If you zoom in, does another danger appear to the west of the cardinal?
2. What is the direction of bouyage (not shown on your screen shot)?

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Toph said..
Two things come immediately to my mind.

1. You are using Navionics. If you zoom in, does another danger appear to the west of the cardinal?
2. What is the direction of bouyage (not shown on your screen shot)?

Hi thanks for your response,
1.) If I zoom in no danger appears, this is the case on my chartplotter, my phone app and also my pc.
2.) My voyage direction was from position 'A' to position 'X' as per the references and large red arrow which I drew on the chart image using photoshop. I also drew the arc as an indicator of what I understood to be the angle but not necessarily the radius of the no go zone.

Ok. I did wonder about the ark as I hadn't seen it before.

When I asked direction of bouyage, I wasn't referring to your track. You will find on your Navionics map (but in my opinion more easily found on the paper chart) a magenta coloured arrow (possibly with two circles either side). This indicates the direction of bouyage (not your track) that the cardinals and channel markers are based on.

That is is to say... 'IF' you are travelling in this direction you will want to pass to the east (in your example) of this mark. If you are well north of that mark and you are sailing east to west than you should be fine, especially once you've identified the danger. I hope that makes sense.

The other day, I was looking at a chart for an area I am totally unfamiliar with. The port and starboard markers didn't make sense to what I was expecting. Once I identified the direction of bouyage as depicted on the chart it all fell into place (it didn't help that it reversed mid passage )

Direction of bouyage symbol

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Toph said..
Ok. I did wonder about the ark as I hadn't seen it before.

When I asked direction of bouyage, I wasn't referring to your track. You will find on your Navionics map (but in my opinion more easily found on the paper chart) a magenta coloured arrow (possibly with two circles either side). This indicates the direction of bouyage (not your track) that the cardinals and channel markers are based on.

That is is to say... 'IF' you are travelling in this direction you will want to pass to the east (in your example) of this mark. If you are well north of that mark and you are sailing east to west than you should be fine, especially once you've identified the danger. I hope that makes sense.

The other day, I was looking at a chart for an area I am totally unfamiliar with. The port and starboard markers didn't make sense to what I was expecting. Once I identified the direction of bouyage as depicted on the chart it all fell into place (it didn't help that it reversed mid passage )

Oh I see what you mean... The spell checker put a wavy red line beneath bouyage so I assumed you meant voyage! And then assumed that you may use a different chart thinking my symbols were part of Navionics! Yes I have seen that direction of bouyage symbol before (not knowing it's correct name) I just went back and had a look at Navionics again and it doesn't show anywhere as far as I can see. I have at times referred to the direction of bouyage symbol to orient myself in relation to the channel markers which has been very helpful but I'm still confused as to how it relates to the cardinal marks as I understand they are dealing with compass directions so I see them as indicators of safe quadrants (of unknown distances). So I'm still a bit confused... I really should have drawn a quarter in green to indicate the 'safe' zone to express my confusion... attached.

You are right in that it is a compass quadrant. It made more sense in my mind .


Your question I think was more "how much margin do you give the cardinal?".. that I don't know

I will have a look at the chart in the morning

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Toph said..
You are right in that it is a compass quadrant. It made more sense in my mind .


Your question I think was more "how much margin do you give the cardinal?".. that I don't know

I will have a look at the chart in the morning

Thanks for looking and clarifying my question (I didn't know how to put into simple words!) Although having said that I think I was confused about two things, one was the margin and the other was my confusion as to the placement of this particular cardinal mark given the obstruction is to the south southwest - I found this sort of situation a lot in my travels. Enjoy your sleep!

Interesting question - don't know the answer if I didn't have charts!!

Seems to me that the chartmaker has cleverly put the Cardinal marker to the North East so when
approaching from Honeysuckle Point you don't just nick around the Cardinal and run into the hazard.

I think in this case the east cardinal mark is noting the danger of the marine farm directly to the west of it.

I think I understand the context of the cardinal mark - if you approach or from the east you are in safe water. If you want to go any further you need to identify the hazzard on a chart! The context also makes more sense with the zoomed out chart, as most people will be making for the marina rather than into the second fold of the bay. The east cardinal then identifys that they are in safe water on approach from the east.

Thanks for all your replies. I think as a few have said it makes more sense if you are travelling the most likely route to the most likely destination. I guess it would be wise to put all cardinal marks in this context when approaching. ie If I am travelling on a less taken route to a less popular destination this cardinal may not be placed ideally from my perspective. Lazzz, thanks for posting those three chart examples. May I ask if these are online charts? I would really appreciate the links if they are as I have only been using Navionics on the PC and would really benefit from a variety of charts to compare, etc. Thanks again.

I think you really do need situational awareness by charts or some other landmarks. Example: The middle of the channel to Brisbane Water near Hardies Bay has multiple sand bars and three channels and dozens of blinking navigation lights. If you dont know where you are they can easily make no sense at all.

At any given time you can see multiple greens reds and whites. I ran aground there on my first night trying to go up that channel because we couldn't tell which lights belonged to which channel. Fortunately it was a weekend so the Coast Patrol at the time was on duty and we called them.

They also ran aground on their way down the channel to pull us off also because of misreading the channel markers! We spent 3 hours waiting for the tide to rise to get their boat and my boat unstuck.

It is a good question.
There is a north cardinal mark off Drummoyne near Snapper Island. I often go for a motor near there and keep well clear to the east and west as well as south because I am unclear the size of the obstruction.

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Trek said..
I think you really do need situational awareness by charts or some other landmarks. Example: The middle of the channel to Brisbane Water near Hardies Bay has multiple sand bars and three channels and dozens of blinking navigation lights. If you dont know where you are they can easily make no sense at all.

At any given time you can see multiple greens reds and whites. I ran aground there on my first night trying to go up that channel because we couldn't tell which lights belonged to which channel. Fortunately it was a weekend so the Coast Patrol at the time was on duty and we called them.

They also ran aground on their way down the channel to pull us off also because of misreading the channel markers! We spent 3 hours waiting for the tide to rise to get their boat and my boat unstuck.

I think I agree, you really need a chart and the marks help you to get your physical bearing. One thing I noticed on my trip down the coast is that they certainly don't make the same effort for the boating community as the do for the driving community when it comes to safety and navigation and yet losses at sea probably wouldn't be that far behind losses on the roads by proportion of users? I ran aground on the weekend myself in the Tri. I was taking it extremely slow as I was in shallow water. The way I got out of it was to use my rubber dingy to push the nose of the boat around and then the stern and walk it until it was able to motor off under it's own steam... another idea I had was to motor the dingy past the boat at a little more speed creating a wake while someone drives the Tri each time it lifts in the wake. (I haven't tried this method yet). I made sure I explored the new shallow area at the bottom of the tide so I had some room to move if I got stuck.

DS and others, just a short aside, that area of Twofold Bay (Eden) is a terrific stopover, whether from the land or the sea. I first went there in the early 80's on a Uni field trip to Edrom Lodge which is in the area just inside the southern headland of the bay. This lodge is an old and rambling 30's era californian bungalow which was donated for the use of educational institutions, it has lovely lawns running down to its own beach right beside the very large Naval wharf in what the chart lists as East Boyd Bay.
This wharf was open to the public the last time I was there 2 yrs ago and a few people were fishing off it, one guy used a golf buggy to cart his fishing gear to the end, as its about 1 km long, and as wide as a highway! When the Navy moved its munitions storage/loading from Sydney/Newington prior to the 2000 Olympics it was moved to Twofold Bay and this wharf and other infrastructure was built.
There is also the historic Sea Horse Inn just south of the 'X' in DS's original chart. This is a great place to have a few beers as you look across the lawns to the beach.you can also stay there.for a price!
These places are an easy drive out of Eden if you're visiting the area from the land, but are possibly a little exposed as an anchorage area in unfavourable weather, as the entrance to Twofold bay is very wide and much like Jervis Bay has few sheltered areas to run to except the wharf area on the north side of the bay.
Cheers. Greg.

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MorningBird said..
It is a good question.
There is a north cardinal mark off Drummoyne near Snapper Island. I often go for a motor near there and keep well clear to the east and west as well as south because I am unclear the size of the obstruction.

Keeping well clear is the wisest thing for sure and I will be doing that well and truly. I had a discussion about this in a sailboat with a seasoned sailor, he insisted that the rule was to just use your judgement but I debated that judgement is subjective and surely there would be some standard rules of distance used as in most safety operations??... he asked me if I had been drinking!!! His friend stepped in and said they are a guide and must be used in conjunction with a chart which was a much more acceptable answer at the time and I assumed the distance was probably marked on the chart but it wasn't so I still wonder if there is an actual distance of avoidance rule other than stay to the east, etc. I haven't done any formal sailing courses so that's something I plan to do now that I have had some experience and a point of reference to relate to which will make things easier to understand.

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GKandCC said..
DS and others, just a short aside, that area of Twofold Bay (Eden) is a terrific stopover, whether from the land or the sea. I first went there in the early 80's on a Uni field trip to Edrom Lodge which is in the area just inside the southern headland of the bay. This lodge is an old and rambling 30's era californian bungalow which was donated for the use of educational institutions, it has lovely lawns running down to its own beach right beside the very large Naval wharf in what the chart lists as East Boyd Bay.
This wharf was open to the public the last time I was there 2 yrs ago and a few people were fishing off it, one guy used a golf buggy to cart his fishing gear to the end, as its about 1 km long, and as wide as a highway! When the Navy moved its munitions storage/loading from Sydney/Newington prior to the 2000 Olympics it was moved to Twofold Bay and this wharf and other infrastructure was built.
There is also the historic Sea Horse Inn just south of the 'X' in DS's original chart. This is a great place to have a few beers as you look across the lawns to the beach.you can also stay there.for a price!
These places are an easy drive out of Eden if you're visiting the area from the land, but are possibly a little exposed as an anchorage area in unfavourable weather, as the entrance to Twofold bay is very wide and much like Jervis Bay has few sheltered areas to run to except the wharf area on the north side of the bay.
Cheers. Greg.

I think this is the spot you are referring to. A beautiful little spot from an anchorage perspective too! I remembered it when you mentioned that lodge which I remember looking up to at anchor. The weather was favourable so we were able to anchor here quite nicely at the time. It was one of my favourite stopovers. One thing to consider if you are on a schedule is to contact the coastguard to find out when the Naval ship is coming in as you are not allowed to operate a vessel in the area while it is there. We were happily stranded for a day!

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DeanSailing said..
His friend stepped in and said they are a guide and must be used in conjunction with a chart which was a much more acceptable answer at the time and I assumed the distance was probably marked on the chart but it wasn't so I still wonder if there is an actual distance of avoidance rule other than stay to the east, etc.

maybe i'm misunderstanding you, but i'm not sure how there could be a 'rule', since the safe distance is going to vary greatly according to each vessel's draft, the profile of the hazard, and the conditions at the time, etc...

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DeanSailing said..
Lazzz, thanks for posting those three chart examples. May I ask if these are online charts? I would really appreciate the links if they are as I have only been using Navionics on the PC and would really benefit from a variety of charts to compare, etc. Thanks again.

Memory Maps - I use this with a GPS on my laptop. Great value
http://memory-map.com.au/digital-maps/digital-marine-charts/quickcharts-aho-admiralty-raster-marine-charts-australia.html

OpenCPN - This is also on my laptop with the GPS - Good value because it's free!!
opencpn.org/OpenCPN/info/downloads.html

& I am setting up a Raspberry Pi3 with OpenPlotter
sailoog.gitbooks.io/openplotter-documentation/content/en/getting_started.html

I have Navionics on my MFD & home PC

Navionics Webapp also comes in handy
webapp.navionics.com/?lang=en&ticket=ST-1475267855r6INyaMkuV-B9tySTwq#boating@7&key=zebaFqybq%5B

Larger obstructions like Sow and Pigs inside Sydney's south head have more than one cardinal marks, this one has all four. The only one I'm aware of that does so.
i assume that a single mark indicates a small obstruction. It is how small is the question.

Cardinal marks are quite simple to understand.
If it is, for example, a north mark it is quite clear, it means pass north of it in a safe distance and you should come to no harm.
At sow&pigs it is quite clear again. It is marked by all four. Still, years ago some fool run into it, racing! (he obviously had problems defining the meaning of 'safe distance' )

If the danger is a single spot, like a peak of a rock which might not quite be visible at high tide, it would have the isolated danger mark. So one could pass it in any direction at a safe distance.
The cardinal mark in its place would send a different message, pass it in the marked direction in a safe distance and no other.
The drawn arch on the chart quite correctly suggest the area is to be avoided. It might mark a chain of underwater obstructions etc.

Why would anybody in his right mind would start a trip out of home waters without some sort of mapping this age, is beyond me.
The book section at Whitworts is holding a selection of useful books on the subject.
Paper charts and books supposed to be found on every yacht on passage.
In NSW by law one must carry a chart.

This book explains all markings on paper charts.