On the back of some interesting topic's of late, im thinking what questions could / should be asked if about to making an offer on a boat, before going to inspect or employ a surveyor.

Many of the questions would be answered in the advert or general conversation but I think it would be more upfront (and harder to fib) if it was formalized.

I have started a short list but know there are many things id never think to ask.

What are questions you would ask, wish you did ask, will ask next time?


Navigation / electronics
Brand and age of electronics?
Sailing instruments?
Radar brand and age?
Condition of all wiring harnesses?
Number of, age, type of batteries and what they power?
Generator?
Solar panels age and output?
Inverter?
If you were to keep the boat what do you foresee needs to be attended to?

Standing rigging
Is the standing rigging original?
If renewed, was it 100% replaced or partially replaced and why?
When was work carried out?
Have you ever had an issue with the furler?
If you were to keep the boat what do you foresee needs to be attended to?

Running rigging
Age of ropes?
Age of blocks / pullies?
If you were to keep the boat what do you foresee needs to be attended to?

Sails
What sails are included?
Age and condition, are there any tears or broken stitching?
Do the sails hoist easily, do the cars / slugs flow without effort?
Are the battens in good condition, are there spares?
If you were to keep the boat what do you foresee needs to be attended to?

Engine
Age of engine, hours shown on engine, has the hour clock always worked and correct?
Does the engine burn oil?
Can you supply copy of full-service history?
If you were to keep the boat what do you foresee needs to be attended to?

Hull above waterline, port holes, windows, door, hatches
Is there any rainwater egress when stationary?
Is there any saltwater egress when underway?
Is there any saltwater egress when underway and sea is spraying / crashing over the boat?
If you were to keep the boat what do you foresee needs to be attended to?

Hull under waterline
When and where was last lift out?
What work was undertaken?
What brand and how many coats of anti fouling was applied and by who?
Age and condition of all through hull / sea-cocks?
Age and condition of rudder shaft and bearings?
Keel bolts / joins inspection report?
If you were to keep the boat what do you foresee needs to be attended to?

Creature comforts
HWS size, heating time?
Water maker?
Air condition?
Washing machine?

Some of those questions could be answered by a broker, but others would only be for the owner only.
I feel that most broker's reaction to being asked, "Do the sails hoist easily, do the cars / slugs flow without effort?" would be, "Buggered if I know."

Good list to check though.

gary

Great topic Craig66.

Your suggested question as below is what all buyers should ask - but maybe not for all the categories you have listed...........of course it depends on the $value of the yacht...............a Cav30 in the $50k range was the most I got to buy and sell............

If you were to keep the boat what do you foresee needs to be attended to?

See useful links here - there are many other links obviously.

www.mysailing.com.au/cruising/do-your-own-pre-survey-survey

www.practical-sailor.com/sailboat-reviews/used_sailboats/diy-survey-checklist-for-used-boat-buying

yachthub.com/pdf/How%20to%20conduct%20your%20own%20pre-survey%20survey%20of%20a%20mono%20hull%20sail%20boat.pdf

My experience buying and 1/2 life refurbishing over a dozen yachts in the range 6.7-9.3m is to add the following; this is based on grp hulls and alum mast/boom/kite pole. Of course could add heaps more..............

Standing rigging renewal - what wire was used (standard 316ss or a compact wire such as Hammapro), and were the diameters and breaking loads equal or greater than the original, including turnbuckles etc. Any standing rigging damage from unexpected events - ie complete knock down of the boat from a murderous gust and mainsheet not able to be uncleated, or forestay turnbuckle bend due to hitting a wharf just above bow height............are the chainplates of suitable load rating, and the bulkheads they are bolted to of same rating, no wood rot in the bulkhead or corrosion in the chainplate bolts. Same for forestay and backstay securing.

Mast - how old. Any galvanic corrosion holes under stainless bands (gooseneck, kite pole snotter, spreaders, other). Such corrosion is a big kahuna if the Duralac usually used in older masts breaks down........Tefgel is the go now. Is the mast straight laterally, and with a fair continuous curve fore and aft - assuming a swept back spreader fractional rig. Masthead crane ok? Mast at base not showing buckling signs? Mast base to deck ok, secure.

Hull - do you mean ingress not egress?

Hull above waterline - cabin top handrails fitted and load rating as designed? (Many teak handrails on older yachts are way beyond their use by date........). Pulpit, pushpit, stanchions and lifelines ok? Secure? Not bent? Many yachts have bent stanchions due to prior close encounter events.........these are easily straightened at numerous pipe rolling companies around the country - they have the formers to ensure the tubes don't get damaged in the process ........hatches not damaged and sealing? Companionway hatch secure and sealing? These are easily fixed.

Hull below waterline - osmosis..............is there any............see prior threads this may not be a show stopper if it is slight but if it is rampant then walk away.....................skin fittings - must be marine bronze suitably sealed / adhered in, with marine bronze valves attached then double ss utilux clamp reinforced hoses onto the valves. Hull floors in way of keel - lateral and fore and aft structural grid, any crazing of the grp. Any grounding events and consequences to the hull structure.

Most buyers as a pair - him and her - want a proper toilet with pump out to holding tank included, and hot shower. For the Cav30 I bought / sold this could have been fitted but wasn't.............for the 2 Santana 22's I bought / sold this wasn't possible obviously...........not sure why persons who are only going to day sail a yacht are obsessed with bathrooms............so use the one you have at home then go sailing...........return home and use it again..............not rocket science.............

You could ask the broker these questions, but you would probably be wasting oxygen - you will need the owner!
I don't think a surveyor would be much help either.

Where is the engine oil dipstick/oil filter/fuel filter?
How do you get to the water pump impeller?
How do you replace engine anodes?
How do you get to/service the stern gland?
etc, etc,........

You will need to deal with these things, and if the owner hasn't then I would just walk.

I once inspected a yacht that was originally well made but had fallen into the wrong hands. It took me 15 minutes to get the dipstick out, and 15 minutes to put it back. Clearly the owner had no idea of routine maintenance, ... so I went home.

Here is one you missed
When were the chain plate bolts replaced
these looked alright on visual inspection
but when removed!!!!!!!

Off Defiance btw

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saintpeter said..
You could ask the broker these questions, but you would probably be wasting oxygen - you will need the owner!
I don't think a surveyor would be much help either.

Where is the engine oil dipstick/oil filter/fuel filter?
How do you get to the water pump impeller?
How do you replace engine anodes?
How do you get to/service the stern gland?
etc, etc,........

You will need to deal with these things, and if the owner hasn't then I would just walk.

I once inspected a yacht that was originally well made but had fallen into the wrong hands. It took me 15 minutes to get the dipstick out, and 15 minutes to put it back. Clearly the owner had no idea of routine maintenance, ... so I went home.

Very clever

Has the vessel ever been submerged ( sunk, in other words lol ) would probably be up there somewhere...
How long etc etc

Petrol motor compression numbers,
Ok, that one's more for the common riff riff... stink boat owners
Etc etc blah blah

I guess many of those questions are relevant but if there is a broker involved and he can't answer them, what is the general view, should these questions be passed on to the owner or have to wait till survey?

Some other questions I thought of:
Any engine oil leak?
Have the engine mounts been replaced?
What anchor rode and how long?
Is the anchor sufficient, and what additional anchors are there?
What tender have you had with the boat (If not for sale with it) where does it fit when cruising?
Is the engine power sufficient for the size of boat and in what conditions?
How easy is the boat to manoeuvre under power (forward/reverse)
Balance of the tiller under various conditions.
How light/heavy/responsive is the tiller?
Under what (weather/sea) conditions does the boat excel and vice versa.
How much electrical power does the boat use?

What's that scum line on the inside of the coach house?

Thanks guys for the reply's
Great links r13

Boat in mind is around 40 cat, about 10 years old, this one was listed last Friday, its not quiet what im after and a tad over my budget, now under offer (not me)

yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/lagoon-380-premium-3-cabin-owners-version/253793

It has a new mast, sails, electronics, strange, some things dont gel with the add.

Totally agree with the idea of doing my own pre survey survey.

Do brokers mark adds "under offer" when no offer has been made in an attempt to gain interest from buyers that feel they have missed out?

PS lydia, the 2 bolts at top left look fine

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Craig66 said..
Totally agree with the idea of doing my own pre survey survey.

I didn't get a survey done on my current boat and I have not regretted it. I do wish I had a mechanical inspection done though (John24's engine mount question ).

This to me is a divisive topic in my own head. If I was given a list of questions like this I wouldn't bother with answering many of them. However most, if not all could come up in conversational manner and I would happily answer nearly all of them. Some of them are subjective and can only be determined with a sea trial or dependant on how you are going to use it. For example (sorry John24, one of your questions again),

Buyer: "Is the engine power sufficient for the size of boat and in what conditions?"....
Seller: "Yes, the 100hp Yanmar turbo charged diesel is plenty powerful enough. Unless you stuff up your tide times and go through the 'Gugari Rip' at the wrong time. Then it is only barely powerful enough"...

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Craig66 said..
Thanks guys for the reply's
Great links r13

Boat in mind is around 40 cat, about 10 years old, this one was listed last Friday, its not quiet what im after and a tad over my budget, now under offer (not me)

yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/lagoon-380-premium-3-cabin-owners-version/253793

It has a new mast, sails, electronics, strange, some things dont gel with the add.

Totally agree with the idea of doing my own pre survey survey.

Do brokers mark adds "under offer" when no offer has been made in an attempt to gain interest from buyers that feel they have missed out?

PS lydia, the 2 bolts at top left look fine

They would be two of the 20 new ones
smarty pants

I never purchased a vessel in reliance in a survey
most surveyor are only interested in whether it is an insurance risk
Two of the last three were uninsurable at purchase
I could not even get third party to bring Defiance into a commercial marina
End of the day it is all up to you

Along these lines I can see a time not far away when rec boats will need to be in survey of sorts and we will need a certificate or licence to operate, then as it is with our vehicles, our vessels will be safe. And of course when we buy a 2nd hand vehicle that's in rego we know it's all good
apologies for the thread drift.

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lydia said..
I never purchased a vessel in reliance in a survey
most surveyor are only interested in whether it is an insurance risk
Two of the last three were uninsurable at purchase
I could not even get third party to bring Defiance into a commercial marina
End of the day it is all up to you

Totally agree but I never needed to bring a yacht into a commercial marina - rather to my mooring held for over 35yrs and the mooring serviced recently by Octopus Marine - owner and operator Deniz a real Trojan.

Sandy Schofield (RIP) was an excellent surveyor for 2 of my yachts and I would expect he has done many more.............he might be mentioned in the below which came up on a google search - if not the below is a fascinating insight to sailing circa 1966...............

archive.cyca.com.au/media/3435156/1966-sydney-hobart-official-programme.pdf

Many insurers refused my 3rd party insurance requests for two small yachts recently - both of them worth two thirds of four fifths of not very much............but Trident Marine stepped up to the plate given my prior yacht ownership and no claims background.

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john24 said..
I guess many of those questions are relevant but if there is a broker involved and he can't answer them, what is the general view, should these questions be passed on to the owner or have to wait till survey?

Some other questions I thought of:
Any engine oil leak?
Have the engine mounts been replaced?
What anchor rode and how long?
Is the anchor sufficient, and what additional anchors are there?
What tender have you had with the boat (If not for sale with it) where does it fit when cruising?
Is the engine power sufficient for the size of boat and in what conditions?
How easy is the boat to manoeuvre under power (forward/reverse)
Balance of the tiller under various conditions.
How light/heavy/responsive is the tiller?
Under what (weather/sea) conditions does the boat excel and vice versa.
How much electrical power does the boat use?

What's that scum line on the inside of the coach house?

I'm of the opinion that surveys are a waste of money. Just getting that out of the way! I would always buy a boat by the heart and accept all the faults.
Most of the questions above have nothing to do with a surveyors normal inspection. These are the responsibilities the buyer should be looking at when deciding what sort of boat they are looking for.

The most popular question I have had from nearly all enquirers is about groundings.
Has the boat ever been put aground?
What are the rudder bearings, and what are the shafts and rudders like?
Has there been any keel damage?
Cheers!
SB

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shaggybaxter said..
The most popular question I have had from nearly all enquirers is about groundings.
Has the boat ever been put aground?
What are the rudder bearings, and what are the shafts and rudders like?
Has there been any keel damage?
Cheers!
SB

With modern boats like yours with deep high aspect keels that's reasonable. With older boats that have had several owners no one is going to know how many times the keel has touched the bottom. The mooring field I'm in was subjected to a flood recently where the sand shifted so some boats are touching the bottom at every low tide! That's not the same as sailing full bore into a sand bar.

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Ramona said..

john24 said..
I guess many of those questions are relevant but if there is a broker involved and he can't answer them, what is the general view, should these questions be passed on to the owner or have to wait till survey?

Some other questions I thought of:
Any engine oil leak?
Have the engine mounts been replaced?
What anchor rode and how long?
Is the anchor sufficient, and what additional anchors are there?
What tender have you had with the boat (If not for sale with it) where does it fit when cruising?
Is the engine power sufficient for the size of boat and in what conditions?
How easy is the boat to manoeuvre under power (forward/reverse)
Balance of the tiller under various conditions.
How light/heavy/responsive is the tiller?
Under what (weather/sea) conditions does the boat excel and vice versa.
How much electrical power does the boat use?

What's that scum line on the inside of the coach house?

I'm of the opinion that surveys are a waste of money. Just getting that out of the way! I would always buy a boat by the heart and accept all the faults.
Most of the questions above have nothing to do with a surveyors normal inspection. These are the responsibilities the buyer should be looking at when deciding what sort of boat they are looking for.

Seriously, that is a ridiculous comment. A good Surveyor can save you a fortune and pain by high lighting facts and steering the prospective buyer to other experts for evaluation, if required. If you want to accept all faults known, fine. It's the unknown that may cost plenty.
I had a customer recently pull out of a deal after oil samples from both engines in a catamaran cam back contaminated.
It was suggested by the surveyor to get oil samples. People get NRMA inspections on a car worth 5K,

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Perry500 said..

Ramona said..

john24 said..
I guess many of those questions are relevant but if there is a broker involved and he can't answer them, what is the general view, should these questions be passed on to the owner or have to wait till survey?

Some other questions I thought of:
Any engine oil leak?
Have the engine mounts been replaced?
What anchor rode and how long?
Is the anchor sufficient, and what additional anchors are there?
What tender have you had with the boat (If not for sale with it) where does it fit when cruising?
Is the engine power sufficient for the size of boat and in what conditions?
How easy is the boat to manoeuvre under power (forward/reverse)
Balance of the tiller under various conditions.
How light/heavy/responsive is the tiller?
Under what (weather/sea) conditions does the boat excel and vice versa.
How much electrical power does the boat use?

What's that scum line on the inside of the coach house?

I'm of the opinion that surveys are a waste of money. Just getting that out of the way! I would always buy a boat by the heart and accept all the faults.
Most of the questions above have nothing to do with a surveyors normal inspection. These are the responsibilities the buyer should be looking at when deciding what sort of boat they are looking for.

Seriously, that is a ridiculous comment. A good Surveyor can save you a fortune and pain by high lighting facts and steering the prospective buyer to other experts for evaluation, if required. If you want to accept all faults known, fine. It's the unknown that may cost plenty.
I had a customer recently pull out of a deal after oil samples from both engines in a catamaran cam back contaminated.
It was suggested by the surveyor to get oil samples. People get NRMA inspections on a car worth 5K,

Remember some of us on here have a lot of knowledge and experience, and have even read a couple of text books on surveying small craft.:-) So quite capable of doing their own survey.

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Yara said..

Perry500 said..

Ramona said..

john24 said..
I guess many of those questions are relevant but if there is a broker involved and he can't answer them, what is the general view, should these questions be passed on to the owner or have to wait till survey?

Some other questions I thought of:
Any engine oil leak?
Have the engine mounts been replaced?
What anchor rode and how long?
Is the anchor sufficient, and what additional anchors are there?
What tender have you had with the boat (If not for sale with it) where does it fit when cruising?
Is the engine power sufficient for the size of boat and in what conditions?
How easy is the boat to manoeuvre under power (forward/reverse)
Balance of the tiller under various conditions.
How light/heavy/responsive is the tiller?
Under what (weather/sea) conditions does the boat excel and vice versa.
How much electrical power does the boat use?

What's that scum line on the inside of the coach house?

I'm of the opinion that surveys are a waste of money. Just getting that out of the way! I would always buy a boat by the heart and accept all the faults.
Most of the questions above have nothing to do with a surveyors normal inspection. These are the responsibilities the buyer should be looking at when deciding what sort of boat they are looking for.

Seriously, that is a ridiculous comment. A good Surveyor can save you a fortune and pain by high lighting facts and steering the prospective buyer to other experts for evaluation, if required. If you want to accept all faults known, fine. It's the unknown that may cost plenty.
I had a customer recently pull out of a deal after oil samples from both engines in a catamaran cam back contaminated.
It was suggested by the surveyor to get oil samples. People get NRMA inspections on a car worth 5K,

Remember some of us on here have a lot of knowledge and experience, and have even read a couple of text books on surveying small craft.:-) So quite capable of doing their own survey.

Sure, agreed, but the original information was sort from someone with little experience.
There are plenty of fender squeezers who have come unstuck because they think they know a bit !

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Perry500 said..

Ramona said..

Seriously, that is a ridiculous comment. A good Surveyor can save you a fortune and pain by high lighting facts and steering the prospective buyer to other experts for evaluation, if required. If you want to accept all faults known, fine. It's the unknown that may cost plenty.
I had a customer recently pull out of a deal after oil samples from both engines in a catamaran cam back contaminated.
It was suggested by the surveyor to get oil samples. People get NRMA inspections on a car worth 5K,

No, it's not. I have just been studying a survey report and it's rubbish.

Don't be too harsh Ramona. For a suspective buyer who knows absolutely nothing about boats a survey is probably a good idea. They can pull the survey report out of their rear end and try to make themselves sound half intelligent.

If a half smart buyer comes along, a good question to the broker/seller is "Will you provide a survey report for an insurance company??"

Who wants to buy an uninsurable boat??

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Ramona said..

Perry500 said..

Ramona said..

Seriously, that is a ridiculous comment. A good Surveyor can save you a fortune and pain by high lighting facts and steering the prospective buyer to other experts for evaluation, if required. If you want to accept all faults known, fine. It's the unknown that may cost plenty.
I had a customer recently pull out of a deal after oil samples from both engines in a catamaran cam back contaminated.
It was suggested by the surveyor to get oil samples. People get NRMA inspections on a car worth 5K,

No, it's not. I have just been studying a survey report and it's rubbish.

I have had bad experience with surveyors that haven't picked up anything that isn't obvious and missed major items. They have made a big fuss about stuff that doesn't matter and brushed off serious stuff. I think the second set of eyes that a surveyor provides is useful, but for the kind of boats we talk about here , you can't rely on a survey and compared to the cost of a boat are very expensive.

At the end of the day I think the most important thing is assessing if you can trust that the the previous owner(s) have done the right thing. The more doggy stuff you find, there will be other doggy stuff you can't find and surveyor won't find.

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Ramona said..

Perry500 said..

Ramona said..

Seriously, that is a ridiculous comment. A good Surveyor can save you a fortune and pain by high lighting facts and steering the prospective buyer to other experts for evaluation, if required. If you want to accept all faults known, fine. It's the unknown that may cost plenty.
I had a customer recently pull out of a deal after oil samples from both engines in a catamaran cam back contaminated.
It was suggested by the surveyor to get oil samples. People get NRMA inspections on a car worth 5K,

No, it's not. I have just been studying a survey report and it's rubbish.

Without doubt, just like all corners of industry, some are rubbish, some are okay and some are brilliant. It's up to the prospective buyer to do plenty of due diligence and put themselves in the know, pretty simple really. I can tell you for a fact that brokers welcome buyers who reckon they are well informed and do not engage a Surveyor, as there is a much greater chance of a sale . Its a fair amount of brokers that are rubbish, they will tell you anything to get a deal across the line.

Good discussion, My thoughts on the OP is that the list of questions is relay what YOU want to know and you have to extract enough information from multiple sources to feel comfortable in making an informed decision. Each source has a different level of trust, your own observations based on your experience, that of a surveyor, the current owner based on your interactions and how honest you perceive them to be and the broker.

Opinions on surveyors seem to be polarised, they are either rubbish or excellent. Most people who have been boating for a long time probably don't need a survey but that is based on their ability to answer the questions themselves than a survey being worthwhile or not. Not everyone is interested in corrosion or marine coatings to be confident in their own judgement, this is certainly one area where bringing a friend who is can be an enormous benefit.

The OP's question related to what questions should one ask the vendor, then depending on that decide on whether to go ahead with a survey. Toph mentioned he would throw away a long list of questions, which is far enough as a seller will have all manner of tire kickers coming along.
I think most of the questions listed (certainly mine) would be asked in conversation. I'd be documenting the answers though. If I was going to get a survey, I would then have a list of things to ask the surveyor with all his expertise. Some of those questions might not be part of the survey as such, but you can always try to get more information either from the surveyor or other experts such as this forum.

I got a survey for my current boat, and am glad I did, even though it cost about $1K (survey plus slipping), compared to a purchase cost of $20K. Having owned a trailer-sailer for may years, I knew something about boats, and what could go wrong, but not enough to spot those flaws that could cost more than the boat is worth, or, worse, put me and my family in danger at sea. Maybe after several more years of sailing, owning and fixing a wide range of boats, I'd have the confidence to do the survey myself, but not yet.

The OP's list of questions is comprehensive, and a prospective buyer would do well to ask them. However, a second opinion and a professional eye is also well worth it, especially when you entrust your life to this thing that you're about to spend a large sum of money on.