I have purchased B & G instruments and intend to purchase an autopilot for the boat. I find it a bit confusing when trying to figure out which brand would be best in regards to power usage. The sloop is 35' and weighs 6 tons with wheel steering. Any advice please?

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sailorsilas said..
I have purchased B & G instruments and intend to purchase an autopilot for the boat. I find it a bit confusing when trying to figure out which brand would be best in regards to power usage. The sloop is 35' and weighs 6 tons with wheel steering. Any advice please?

Been pondering the same thing. The b&g hydraulic unit looks rather neat with the pump reservoir and all on the end of the ram but I read an article about how going from electrical energy to hydraulic then back to mechanical is wasteful in theory. The article favoured electric drives but says they should be braked. The electric motor ram drive units for the Garmin and the Raymarine are configured quite differently to eachother and I am leaning towards the Garmin.
In the end however I guess there is no substitute for information from someone who has had one for some time and used it a lot. Hopefully such a person may surface here.

Check out Jeffa drives and there is a USA company (can't think know of name right now) which just makes drives which are very well regarded. Stainless components not cheap alloy
Use whatever the French use. Shaggy is the local NKE expert

But if just cruising I would look at commercial products like TMQ or Coursemaster.
TMQ is ridiculously reliable and i mean for 25 years not 3 years.

Raymarine is just crap and not long lasting

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lydia said..
Check out Jeffa drives and there is a USA company (can't think know of name right now) which just makes drives which are very well regarded. Stainless components not cheap alloy
Use whatever the French use. Shaggy is the local NKE expert

But if just cruising I would look at commercial products like TMQ or Coursemaster.
TMQ is ridiculously reliable and i mean for 25 years not 3 years.

Raymarine is just crap and not long lasting

I think the article I originally read was about a Jefa drive and then I decided they were identical to Garmin except a few hundred dollars more expensive.

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lydia said..
Check out Jeffa drives and there is a USA company (can't think know of name right now) which just makes drives which are very well regarded. Stainless components not cheap alloy
Use whatever the French use. Shaggy is the local NKE expert

But if just cruising I would look at commercial products like TMQ or Coursemaster.
TMQ is ridiculously reliable and i mean for 25 years not 3 years.

Raymarine is just crap and not long lasting

That's a broad sweeping brush ! I've had a bit to do with a coursemaster job and wasn't overly impressed. I'm assuming the TMQ unit is the sort of thing that would be found in a trawler ?

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woko said..

lydia said..
Check out Jeffa drives and there is a USA company (can't think know of name right now) which just makes drives which are very well regarded. Stainless components not cheap alloy
Use whatever the French use. Shaggy is the local NKE expert

But if just cruising I would look at commercial products like TMQ or Coursemaster.
TMQ is ridiculously reliable and i mean for 25 years not 3 years.

Raymarine is just crap and not long lasting

That's a broad sweeping brush ! I've had a bit to do with a coursemaster job and wasn't overly impressed. I'm assuming the TMQ unit is the sort of thing that would be found in a trawler ?

I had two fishing vessels with TMQ40's and they were excellent. Both were on hydraulic steering though.

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Ramona said..

woko said..

lydia said..
Check out Jeffa drives and there is a USA company (can't think know of name right now) which just makes drives which are very well regarded. Stainless components not cheap alloy
Use whatever the French use. Shaggy is the local NKE expert

But if just cruising I would look at commercial products like TMQ or Coursemaster.
TMQ is ridiculously reliable and i mean for 25 years not 3 years.

Raymarine is just crap and not long lasting

That's a broad sweeping brush ! I've had a bit to do with a coursemaster job and wasn't overly impressed. I'm assuming the TMQ unit is the sort of thing that would be found in a trawler ?

I had two fishing vessels with TMQ40's and they were excellent. Both were on hydraulic steering though.

Thanks I suspected they would be industrial hydraulic units. I'm amazed that the electric worm drive ram works to the degree it does, which I think is more than ok, but if they were a bit heavier in construction I would not complain

Couldn't be happier with my current spec linear drive Raymarine. It is 3 years old though so I guess about to fail...

he he.

More seriously though what a system. Holds a perfect heading under all kinds of conditions. Doesn't steer as well as a skilled human downwind with a following sea but thats forgivable being installed in a Joubert Magpie with all that IOR style meandering.

$5k approx plus install. I designed the install and spent a month on and off fabricating and fitting it but it has been perfect.

Thanks everyone. Any more suggestions?

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Magpieuser said..
Couldn't be happier with my current spec linear drive Raymarine. It is 3 years old though so I guess about to fail...

he he.

More seriously though what a system. Holds a perfect heading under all kinds of conditions. Doesn't steer as well as a skilled human downwind with a following sea but thats forgivable being installed in a Joubert Magpie with all that IOR style meandering.

$5k approx plus install. I designed the install and spent a month on and off fabricating and fitting it but it has been perfect.

Apologies for the thread hijack ...

I'd be really interested in the details, Magpieuser. Such as what type of Raymarine gear, how and where it was installed, power consumption, drawings, photos etc. I'm using an ST2000+ on a Currawong and thinking about an upgrade when that fails.

Cheers,
Kinora

Hi Sailorsilas,
Congrats, B&G make nice kit! So what did you go for , the Triton2 or H5000 series? I got a bit nerdy over hydraulic verses electric actuators when choosing mine as I got a lot of conflicting advice on power usage. In hindsight I didn't need to get so hung up on it especially when your using a good quality vendor such as B&G as your sensor suite. B&G, NKE and the other premium offerings use pulse width modulation to lower the voltage to the bare minimum that is needed. On a well designed system that means both actuators are very efficient, so tomato tomato really.

A good pilot is only as good as the inputs and B&G are one of the best, so you're off to a good start at least! It has to be scoped and designed well and get used to the fact that they are not set and forget, it will take a lot of miles to dial everything in, but the rewards are worth it. It's an unalienable fact that good pilots are expensive, but even with that in mind I believe no other piece of kit on a boat has a greater return on investment. Nothing else will transform your sailing experience as much, and by a comfortable margin. My Raymarine Evo was good enough for steering the boat for a bit in medium conditions so I could go and do something, the NKE was good enough to steer the boat all of the time regardless of the conditions.
If I could summarize my experience, this is the system where you should spend as much as you can afford, you'll thank yourself every time you go out and for years to come.

For my dual ruddered 40'er, I ended up going with a Lecomble & Schmitt (L&S) hydraulic actuator. I liked the fact that hydraulics are immune to overcurrent situations, something that electric actuators were vulnerable to, and it's resilience to harsh environments . The actuator and power pack were mounted in the lazarrete which was our wet locker. Aside from a very infrequent spray of the terminals I never did a modicum of maintenance to it and it never missed a beat. It only connected to one rudder post with a 6" tiller arm and still used nothing in the way of power.

I envy you, one of the best things to be looking at purchasing!
Cheers,
SB

Thanks for your input SB. I'm clueless when it comes to electronics! The B &G stuff is still in the box. I went on a recommendation so don't know whether Triton 2 or the other, and I'm away from the boat so can't look. Will look into B&G as you suggest.

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Kinora said..

Magpieuser said..

Apologies for the thread hijack ...

I'd be really interested in the details, Magpieuser. Such as what type of Raymarine gear, how and where it was installed, power consumption, drawings, photos etc. I'm using an ST2000+ on a Currawong and thinking about an upgrade when that fails.

Cheers,
Kinora

The two women sailing the Currawong 30 in the two handed division of the Sydney Hobart race use a Fleming windvane self steering gear with an ST2000 as backup.

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Ramona said..

Kinora said..

Magpieuser said..

Apologies for the thread hijack ...

I'd be really interested in the details, Magpieuser. Such as what type of Raymarine gear, how and where it was installed, power consumption, drawings, photos etc. I'm using an ST2000+ on a Currawong and thinking about an upgrade when that fails.

Cheers,
Kinora

The two women sailing the Currawong 30 in the two handed division of the Sydney Hobart race use a Fleming windvane self steering gear with an ST2000 as backup.

I'm keeping an eye out for a second hand wind vane. The combination of wind vane and auto or tiller pilot would be ideal.

K.

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Ramona said..

Kinora said..

Magpieuser said..

Apologies for the thread hijack ...

I'd be really interested in the details, Magpieuser. Such as what type of Raymarine gear, how and where it was installed, power consumption, drawings, photos etc. I'm using an ST2000+ on a Currawong and thinking about an upgrade when that fails.

Cheers,
Kinora

The two women sailing the Currawong 30 in the two handed division of the Sydney Hobart race use a Fleming windvane self steering gear with an ST2000 as backup.

Morning Bird used a Fleming vane with a Simrad TP32 tiller pilot backup.
The Simrad lasted 9 years and was still working when I sold MB. It went to Lord Howe 3 times, up and down the coast a lot, got drowned, sat on, fallen on and just kept going. Towards the time I sold the boat the steer to waypoint function failed, everything else was fine.

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Kinora said..

Magpieuser said..
Couldn't be happier with my current spec linear drive Raymarine. It is 3 years old though so I guess about to fail...

he he.

More seriously though what a system. Holds a perfect heading under all kinds of conditions. Doesn't steer as well as a skilled human downwind with a following sea but thats forgivable being installed in a Joubert Magpie with all that IOR style meandering.

$5k approx plus install. I designed the install and spent a month on and off fabricating and fitting it but it has been perfect.

Apologies for the thread hijack ...

I'd be really interested in the details, Magpieuser. Such as what type of Raymarine gear, how and where it was installed, power consumption, drawings, photos etc. I'm using an ST2000+ on a Currawong and thinking about an upgrade when that fails.

Cheers,
Kinora

This system with P70s instrument.

www.raymarine.com/autopilot/evolution-autopilot/ev200/linear.html

The install is frankly a mental challenge, well was for me. Not really a straight line in sight. Eventually I got some accurate dimensions, designed a bracket to attach to the quadrant, had it CNCed and welded up out of decent ally, and also CNCed a bracket that screwed to the underneath of the cockpit seating for the 4 bolt mounting end of the actuator.

Current drain is not an issue. Have done many 24 hour plus sails with the auto on continuously powered of two house batteries and 2 solar panels (forget amp/hrs and wattages)

I'll dig up some pics and post them here to give you an idea.

Installed in Mooloolaba (Kawana Marina) with supply and handy hints from Sterlo at Industrial Marine and Electronics. As an electronics tech myself it was a pleasure to work with someone who actually knows what they're on about and is a very skilled all rounder when it comes to boats. 5 stars!

Select to expand quote

Magpieuser said..

Kinora said..

Magpieuser said..
Couldn't be happier with my current spec linear drive Raymarine. It is 3 years old though so I guess about to fail...

he he.

More seriously though what a system. Holds a perfect heading under all kinds of conditions. Doesn't steer as well as a skilled human downwind with a following sea but thats forgivable being installed in a Joubert Magpie with all that IOR style meandering.

$5k approx plus install. I designed the install and spent a month on and off fabricating and fitting it but it has been perfect.

Apologies for the thread hijack ...

I'd be really interested in the details, Magpieuser. Such as what type of Raymarine gear, how and where it was installed, power consumption, drawings, photos etc. I'm using an ST2000+ on a Currawong and thinking about an upgrade when that fails.

Cheers,
Kinora

This system with P70s instrument.

www.raymarine.com/autopilot/evolution-autopilot/ev200/linear.html

The install is frankly a mental challenge, well was for me. Not really a straight line in sight. Eventually I got some accurate dimensions, designed a bracket to attach to the quadrant, had it CNCed and welded up out of decent ally, and also CNCed a bracket that screwed to the underneath of the cockpit seating for the 4 bolt mounting end of the actuator.

Current drain is not an issue. Have done many 24 hour plus sails with the auto on continuously powered of two house batteries and 2 solar panels (forget amp/hrs and wattages)

I'll dig up some pics and post them here to give you an idea.

Installed in Mooloolaba (Kawana Marina) with supply and handy hints from Sterlo at Industrial Marine and Electronics. As an electronics tech myself it was a pleasure to work with someone who actually knows what they're on about and is a very skilled all rounder when it comes to boats. 5 stars!

Thanks, Magpieuser.

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Kinora said..

Ramona said..

I'm keeping an eye out for a second hand wind vane. The combination of wind vane and auto or tiller pilot would be ideal.

K.

Tiller pilot acting on the windvane servo self steering gear would allow much greater force on the tiller taking the strain off the tiller pilot. A tiller pilot would last forever like that and save you from carrying spare tiller pilots.

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Ramona said..

Kinora said..

Ramona said..

I'm keeping an eye out for a second hand wind vane. The combination of wind vane and auto or tiller pilot would be ideal.

K.

Tiller pilot acting on the windvane servo self steering gear would allow much greater force on the tiller taking the strain off the tiller pilot. A tiller pilot would last forever like that and save you from carrying spare tiller pilots.

Free Range Sailing did that on their Clansman. An added advantage is that it gets around the problem of a narrow cockpit not having enough room between the coaming and the tiller to accommodate the length of a tiller pilot. And the power consumption is reduced.

K.

Unfortunately windvane steering gets impractical and becomes a big unsightly and unstable mess if you have a nice swim platform and wheel steering.

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Kinora said..

Ramona said..

Kinora said..

Ramona said..

I'm keeping an eye out for a second hand wind vane. The combination of wind vane and auto or tiller pilot would be ideal.

K.

Tiller pilot acting on the windvane servo self steering gear would allow much greater force on the tiller taking the strain off the tiller pilot. A tiller pilot would last forever like that and save you from carrying spare tiller pilots.

Free Range Sailing did that on their Clansman. An added advantage is that it gets around the problem of a narrow cockpit not having enough room between the coaming and the tiller to accommodate the length of a tiller pilot. And the power consumption is reduced.

K.

I have a flemming vane that I haven't put back on the boat yet. I am planning to do the same as a redundancy, for the cost of a tiller pilot I am happy to keep it for a backup if it's ever needed.

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julesmoto said..
Unfortunately windvane steering gets impractical and becomes a big unsightly and unstable mess if you have a nice swim platform and wheel steering.

No problem with wheel steering.

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Ramona said..

No problem with wheel steering.

Nice set up but add a swim platform and the mounting arms get much longer and the platform becomes almost useless :(.

I can vouch for a TMQ AP55 autopilot - Steered my boat downwind in 40 knots of breeze surfing at upto14.8 knots easy peasy. mine powers a Lecomble & Schmitt hydraulic drive which is mounted directly to the rudder (on a transom hung tiller steered boat)
I also have a fleming (was primary now as backup), but the TMQ does it so effortlessly.

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santanasaga said..
I can vouch for a TMQ AP55 autopilot - Steered my boat downwind in 40 knots of breeze surfing at upto14.8 knots easy peasy. mine powers a Lecomble & Schmitt hydraulic drive which is mounted directly to the rudder (on a transom hung tiller steered boat)
I also have a fleming (was primary now as backup), but the TMQ does it so effortlessly.

santana, that sounds like a solid set up. What do you recon the amp draw is ?

It will all depend on rudder feedback settings, how accurate you need to steer! The C drive has a 15 amp fuse and will be running almost constantly.
www.tmq.com.au/downloads/TMQ/AP55%20Autopilot.pdf

Then there is this idea.

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julesmoto said..
Then there is this idea.

Yep, good on him, I wish him every success. It comes down to how rudimentary one will accept the performance to be. At a fundamental level its not rocket science but, like anything, the devil is in the detail. The most important input is the compass/gyro/accelerometer, but on the high end systems that's just the start of it.
This is the high level schematic of the algorithms lifted from the NKE processor used by the Class 40's. All we need is for someone to write it and knock up the sensors for a reasonable price and we'll own the market . Anybody good at maths?

What about the Pelagic tiller pilots . I thought they were good?

I am the guy who is installing PyPilot. I have glued in the new motor setup (it cost about $100). I have to wait until my son gets back from holidays to install the electronic head.
I don't go as fast as Class 40 monos and certainly don't sail at high speeds with kite up under autopilot. My Raymarine Mk 5 autopilot does a pretty good job but I just want more grunt. When surfing down waves at up to 13-18 knots the current pilot has to work too hard and is too slow. The little motor is told what to do by the controller, but just can't do it. I want quicker response and a larger motor to produce it. I could easily use the current control head and drive a larger motor through a motor controller controlled by the current autopilot. That would cost me about another $100. Class 40s and other racers fly kites under autopilot and have to be very good at changing course due to apparent issues or the kite collapses. For me - I am happy with sailing a magnetic course and changing from a kite to a reacher. I sold my assy and now have a nice furling Code 0. Code 0s don't collapse like kites and like a genoa, just nicely luff when the wind angle gets too far forward - so I don't need a high end autopilot to cope with high speed sailing under kite at close angles, I don't think many cruisers would.
I think my boat is higher performance than about 90% of the boats people have, and I am happy without wind input and the performance of the Raymarine Mk5 control head, so I don't need anything higher spec - just more powerful. If you don't fly kites under autopilot at close angles whilst foiling or surfing at high speeds, you probably don't need a top end pilot.
My wish is the get rid of proprietal parts and replace these with off the shelf parts - like windscreen wiper motors and Raspberry Pis. There is a massive open source network for drone autopilots and PyPilot is similar. I will be happy to let people know how it works but in the meantime here are some user reviews. The last is the PyPilot designer - Sean - reviewing an installation

forum.openmarine.net/showthread.php?tid=1661

phoenixketch.blogspot.com/2019/01/pypilot-open-source-marine-autopilot.html

I would suggest building the servo side only of a wind self steering servo system like the monitor or Aries. Mounted on the stern between the hulls. Use a small efficient 12v electric motor that can apply a few grams of effort that the servo can convert to 50 kg of effort or what ever you require. You do the maths. The response time will depend on the ratio to the tiller.