Hi All

I've been watching the Australian yacht market for about three years now looking for boats for cruising the east coast, and longer Pacific trips if my skill level gets that far.

My original criteria were: full keel, GRP, small (24 to 30 foot), good sea motion, and suitable for solo sailing (most in that range would be). I'm also keen on boats from mid-1980s on, as they tend to have better fit-outs, fewer problems with the GRP and so on.

Those criteria yield very few boats, because most 1980s-on boats were fin keels.

I'm fine with that now, and have expanded my search up to 32 feet, but longer fin keels and skeg-protected rudders are the minimum.
Recently I've seen a Quest 8, Yankee 30 mark III, a Laurent Giles Wanderer 30, Phantom 32 etc.

I'd buy a Duncanson 29 or compass 28 (not the compass 29), but most are pretty run-down these days. I'd also consider a Compass NZ H28, or a Walker H28 but only the sloop rig (yes, yes, I know the ketch sails better). And I'd consider TopHats if only they looked a little prettier!

There is a good Phantom 32 in Sydney right now,
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/phantom-32/249799
but I'm wondering if the 'comfort ratio' for it is any good. If you want to know why that's important to solo sailor, have a look at the Comfortina 32 in this video - it's all over the place:
.be

So I wondered if anyone has any better suggestions for a sea-kindly, 1985-1995, decent-looking sloop rigged boat in the $20k-$45k bracket. And I'd be especially grateful for thoughts on that Phantom 32.

Thanks in advance!

A boat that size will bounce around in those conditions.
An S&S34 is a renowned sea worthy boat and I can tell you from experience they bounce around in that sort of sea.
I suspect a difference in the boat motions in those videos is at least in part because one is being shot from windward and the other from leeward. The windward shot will look worse.

Select to expand quote

MorningBird said..
A boat that size will bounce around in those conditions.
An S&S34 is a renowned sea worthy boat and I can tell you from experience they bounce around in that sort of sea.
I suspect a difference in the boat motions in those videos is at least in part because one is being shot from windward and the other from leeward. The windward shot will look worse.

[Second attempt at posting this ].... Good point. I'm guessing the other boat is a Laurent Giles design or similar. On Ted Brewer's 'comfort ratio' some of them are off the scale - 54 vs 20-25 for a typical modern production boat. I know it's not the only consideration, but a friend who suffered through owning a Manatou 32 said it made his friends sick 'within minutes'

Both boats seem to be sailing fine for the conditions.
Phantoms are nice sailing boats.
Whats have you been sailing on over the past 3 years?

I would not rely on Ted Brewer's motion comfort ratio for evaluating yachts. Does not apply to any modern design. Ted Brewer himself indicated there really isn't any science behind it, just his opinions and half in jest at that.

Have you looked at the Cavalier 32?

yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/cavalier-32/231968

Ilenart

Select to expand quote

wildemann said..
Both boats seem to be sailing fine for the conditions.
Phantoms are nice sailing boats.
Whats have you been sailing on over the past 3 years?

I sail an RL24 trailer sailer, though I now keep it in a marina in Melbourne so I can get out more. I spent three hours on the bay today in about 10 knots, which is just as well - we're going into stage 4 Covid restrictions, so no more boating for six weeks. The RL sails like a very large dinghy, but it's a lot of fun. I took it into the Great Sandy Strait two years ago, but had to shelter in a small bay for three days when bad weather struck. Did the inside coast of Fraser Island the following week, and then Jervis Bay last year. But that's about the limit of a boat like that - hence my desire to get something more robust

Select to expand quote

Ilenart said..
I would not rely on Ted Brewer's motion comfort ratio for evaluating yachts. Does not apply to any modern design. Ted Brewer himself indicated there really isn't any science behind it, just his opinions and half in jest at that.

Have you looked at the Cavalier 32?

yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/cavalier-32/231968

Ilenart

Ah, good information. I've seen a couple of Cav 32s. Perhaps I'll look at them a bit closer.

Select to expand quote

BluewaterBound said..

wildemann said..
Both boats seem to be sailing fine for the conditions.
Phantoms are nice sailing boats.
Whats have you been sailing on over the past 3 years?

I sail an RL24 trailer sailer, though I now keep it in a marina in Melbourne so I can get out more. I spent three hours on the bay today in about 10 knots, which is just as well - we're going into stage 4 Covid restrictions, so no more boating for six weeks. The RL sails like a very large dinghy, but it's a lot of fun. I took it into the Great Sandy Strait two years ago, but had to shelter in a small bay for three days when bad weather struck. Did the inside coast of Fraser Island the following week, and then Jervis Bay last year. But that's about the limit of a boat like that - hence my desire to get something more robust

Hey mate have you seen simon carter on youtube? He has sailed from brisbane to whitsundays a few times in his spacesailer 20. If you pick your weather the RL24 might get you further than you think.
Cheers,

Here is Simon's youtube video. Obviously a top effort.



I must agree with BluewaterBound that he has got the best out of his RL24. The Spacesailer20 is a lot stronger built boat even with 4foot less length.

Select to expand quote

r13 said..
Here is Simon's youtube video. Obviously a top effort.

I must agree with BluewaterBound that he has got the best out of his RL24. The Spacesailer20 is a lot stronger built boat even with 4foot less length.

That's great stuff - very inspiring. Yes, I had considered a Spacesailer 24 if a good one comes up. The RL was excellent along the inside Fraser Island coast, as we could go into lagoons and creeks and pull up the centreboard and settle on the sand when the tide disappeared in the night. But for the *outside* of Fraser Island a Spacesailer 24 would be much better. I admire Simon's effort in the 20, but I'd like just a bit more room. I've got a really nice inflatable paddle board to use as a tender if I get something like that - easily stowed, and I've heard of one guy adding a small seat and using it like a kayak. All important considerations for a very small keel boat. I see Simon lets his keel sink into the sand, but I guess there will be many locations where that is not possible and you have to moor in slightly deeper water. And, of course, as you travel north the tides get bigger

This Rival 34 was for sale on eBay recently for 25 grand. It's in Portland. Not sure if it's still for sale. These are seriously good cruising yachts.
boats-from-au.com/not-specified/rival-34-sailboat-235688

Select to expand quote

Ramona said..
This Rival 34 was for sale on eBay recently for 25 grand. It's in Portland. Not sure if it's still for sale. These are seriously good cruising yachts.
boats-from-au.com/not-specified/rival-34-sailboat-235688

Thanks for the tip. I'll check it out

Ramona beat me to it, I will also suggest the Rival 34, previous owner kept the boat maintained well, current owner has a couple of Rival in their family, in fact I'd like to buy that yacht, thought about it before current owner bought it,
tell you what...you buy it this time , I'll buy it off you next time.
As another option, Look at Nicholson 32 for what you want in the 32 ft range.

Select to expand quote

BlueMoon said..
Ramona beat me to it, I will also suggest the Rival 34, previous owner kept the boat maintained well, current owner has a couple of Rival in their family, in fact I'd like to buy that yacht, thought about it before current owner bought it,
tell you what...you buy it this time , I'll buy it off you next time.
As another option, Look at Nicholson 32 for what you want in the 32 ft range.

Yeah, the Rival 34 does look good. I see the seller's number is in the UK, so I might try and call him later. I can't get to Portland at present due to the corona virus lock-down in Melbourne. Very frustrating. All the more reason to get a decent cruiser - to quickly get to sea when a lock-down is announced!

Select to expand quote

MorningBird said..
A boat that size will bounce around in those conditions.
An S&S34 is a renowned sea worthy boat and I can tell you from experience they bounce around in that sort of sea.
I suspect a difference in the boat motions in those videos is at least in part because one is being shot from windward and the other from leeward. The windward shot will look worse.

Having only the head sail out is not helping either, reefed main and less head sail out will balance the ride

Select to expand quote

BluewaterBound said..
Hi All

I've been watching the Australian yacht market for about three years now looking for boats for cruising the east coast, and longer Pacific trips if my skill level gets that far.

My original criteria were: full keel, GRP, small (24 to 30 foot), good sea motion, and suitable for solo sailing (most in that range would be). I'm also keen on boats from mid-1980s on, as they tend to have better fit-outs, fewer problems with the GRP and so on.

Those criteria yield very few boats, because most 1980s-on boats were fin keels.

I'm fine with that now, and have expanded my search up to 32 feet, but longer fin keels and skeg-protected rudders are the minimum.
Recently I've seen a Quest 8, Yankee 30 mark III, a Laurent Giles Wanderer 30, Phantom 32 etc.

I'd buy a Duncanson 29 or compass 28 (not the compass 29), but most are pretty run-down these days. I'd also consider a Compass NZ H28, or a Walker H28 but only the sloop rig (yes, yes, I know the ketch sails better). And I'd consider TopHats if only they looked a little prettier!

There is a good Phantom 32 in Sydney right now,
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/phantom-32/249799
but I'm wondering if the 'comfort ratio' for it is any good. If you want to know why that's important to solo sailor, have a look at the Comfortina 32 in this video - it's all over the place:

.be

So I wondered if anyone has any better suggestions for a sea-kindly, 1985-1995, decent-looking sloop rigged boat in the $20k-$45k bracket. And I'd be especially grateful for thoughts on that Phantom 32.

Thanks in advance!

You might also consider a swanson 32-36. Excellent sea boat IMHO, I had a mid 80's 32 and it was very good in conditions the same, or worse, than the video. I also think if you sail the east coast of NSW regularly the video doesn't look all the rough and with the swell beam on it would make for more roll. If they could point higher the ride would smooth out considerably.

Select to expand quote

MagicCarpet4 said..

BluewaterBound said..
Hi All

I've been watching the Australian yacht market for about three years now looking for boats for cruising the east coast, and longer Pacific trips if my skill level gets that far.

My original criteria were: full keel, GRP, small (24 to 30 foot), good sea motion, and suitable for solo sailing (most in that range would be). I'm also keen on boats from mid-1980s on, as they tend to have better fit-outs, fewer problems with the GRP and so on.

Those criteria yield very few boats, because most 1980s-on boats were fin keels.

I'm fine with that now, and have expanded my search up to 32 feet, but longer fin keels and skeg-protected rudders are the minimum.
Recently I've seen a Quest 8, Yankee 30 mark III, a Laurent Giles Wanderer 30, Phantom 32 etc.

I'd buy a Duncanson 29 or compass 28 (not the compass 29), but most are pretty run-down these days. I'd also consider a Compass NZ H28, or a Walker H28 but only the sloop rig (yes, yes, I know the ketch sails better). And I'd consider TopHats if only they looked a little prettier!

There is a good Phantom 32 in Sydney right now,
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/phantom-32/249799
but I'm wondering if the 'comfort ratio' for it is any good. If you want to know why that's important to solo sailor, have a look at the Comfortina 32 in this video - it's all over the place:

.be

So I wondered if anyone has any better suggestions for a sea-kindly, 1985-1995, decent-looking sloop rigged boat in the $20k-$45k bracket. And I'd be especially grateful for thoughts on that Phantom 32.

Thanks in advance!

You might also consider a swanson 32-36. Excellent sea boat IMHO, I had a mid 80's 32 and it was very good in conditions the same, or worse, than the video. I also think if you sail the east coast of NSW regularly the video doesn't look all the rough and with the swell beam on it would make for more roll. If they could point higher the ride would smooth out considerably.

Yes, a number of people have told me about the Swansons. I guess a good 32 would suit me well if I can find a good example

As prev. owner Swanson 32, see pic. Just with genoa, doing hull speed.
Buy only 32 with 36 cabin.

Select to expand quote

BluewaterBound said..

r13 said..
Here is Simon's youtube video. Obviously a top effort.

I must agree with BluewaterBound that he has got the best out of his RL24. The Spacesailer20 is a lot stronger built boat even with 4foot less length.

That's great stuff - very inspiring. Yes, I had considered a Spacesailer 24 if a good one comes up. The RL was excellent along the inside Fraser Island coast, as we could go into lagoons and creeks and pull up the centreboard and settle on the sand when the tide disappeared in the night. But for the *outside* of Fraser Island a Spacesailer 24 would be much better. I admire Simon's effort in the 20, but I'd like just a bit more room. I've got a really nice inflatable paddle board to use as a tender if I get something like that - easily stowed, and I've heard of one guy adding a small seat and using it like a kayak. All important considerations for a very small keel boat. I see Simon lets his keel sink into the sand, but I guess there will be many locations where that is not possible and you have to moor in slightly deeper water. And, of course, as you travel north the tides get bigger

Trailer sailers can make excellent passage times on the highway and launch for the cool stopovers..
Years ago we were anchored up at Whitehaven in Whitsundays and met a couple of Victorian Families that cruised that way, same views, at the same places but with travelling comfort & used the boat as a caravan along the way.
Seemed like an easy way to go and to schedule around working.
Jeff.

Select to expand quote

BluewaterBound said..

BlueMoon said..
Ramona beat me to it, I will also suggest the Rival 34, previous owner kept the boat maintained well, current owner has a couple of Rival in their family, in fact I'd like to buy that yacht, thought about it before current owner bought it,
tell you what...you buy it this time , I'll buy it off you next time.
As another option, Look at Nicholson 32 for what you want in the 32 ft range.

Yeah, the Rival 34 does look good. I see the seller's number is in the UK, so I might try and call him later. I can't get to Portland at present due to the corona virus lock-down in Melbourne. Very frustrating. All the more reason to get a decent cruiser - to quickly get to sea when a lock-down is announced!

I have been informed from a very knowledgeable sailor that the Rival 34 is in a pretty sorry state at the moment.

I have been watching this thread for a bit, so what is a good sea motion.

The physics says a boat that is very light in the ends to reduce e pitching moment.

Equally, a boat that has a high centre of gravity which of course it means the AVS is crap.

So it depends if you worship the AVS god.

Take a Sonata 8, one off the best small sea boats ever in big seas.

Light in the ends and with mainly internal ballast (lead shot glassed in the bilges) with a cast iron keel, very little pitching moment and just enough righting moment.

They ride a big sea like a little duck, no banging no crashing

Take a Sydney 38, light in the ends, low CG keel and an AVS of over 130 degrees.

One of the safest boats in a big sea but the motion can be a bit tough at times.

So you have to ask the right question.

So which boats has the best motion, a S&S 34 or a Mumm (Farr 30}

The physics says not the one you think.

Cripes, the Sonata 8 text.

I am not going to argue with your experience and knowledge rather comment based on my experience sailing JOG series on a Sonata 8 off Sydney in the early 80s. For sure they were light in the ends (and everywhere) because they were far too narrow in the bow and stern and were very lightly built. I wasn't aware of the lead shot glassed in the bilges - thought they just had the standard design type trapezoid cast iron keel for the time. So the longitudinal pitching moment was lowish as a result but I would disagree with the "just enough righting moment". They were tippy. What sort of big sea are you talking about.

Ok you have got good comparisons there with the S38 - with the inherent stiffness the motion will be tough at times but the speed to windward made good and close and wind beam on reaching speed will be there. Same with the Farr30 it will be a tough motion but it won't lie down on its beam ends unless the crew has full main/jib/kite up in 30+kts and broach or chinese gybe......................we have all seen videos of this............

To finish back on Sonata - Gary Mull designed the 6.7 for Sonata Yachts only 1 or 2 years after the 8 design - it had a far wider stern and fuller bow, and a more plumb stem, and the first - Music Factory - was a total pest to Sonata 8 and Farr 727 owners in those JOG series. That was the hull design he should have come out with for the 8 2 years prior - the 6.7 still remains an up to date hull 6-7m design. The Farr727 had been out at least a 1/2 year before the 8 was drawn, winning the 1975 1/4 ton cup in France, and the Aust titles here not long after via Waikikamukau or however you spell it......... if you want a good 7-8m sea boat that was it. We used to watch Waikikamukau finish offshore races in the harbour in front of 1/2 and 3/4 tonners from our Cherub in the 70s......I did the same with my 727 in club racing..........

It is the same for the j24 - way too narrow in the stern and the boom was far too short, the mast too far back, the genoa too big..................designers couldn't see past the IOR rule of the day and draw a proper boat except for Farr and a few frogs.....................albeit the Aust built 727's moved the mast more fwd to correct that..............if I recall right the 1/4 ton cup wining 727 used a backstay extension ss tube frame to get a longer boom and more sail area.............

What you need first is six foot head room and then a yacht that doesn't rock n roll? Am I correct As this seems to be a very common request now?

R
Just enough righting moment meant generally came upright from near 90 degrees just.
As for seas, ocean sailing.
There was a time once when the JOG nationals had a long ocean race of 130 miles and the SCOR series a 200 mile long race.

So my observations where to test the conventional theories.

And remember that sea kindliness os often a function of boat balance

Select to expand quote

southace said..
What you need first is six foot head room and then a yacht that doesn't rock n roll? Am I correct As this seems to be a very common request now?

Yes correct as regards those two........also need an electric pump out loo and hot water shower................so that is a stink boat............

Select to expand quote

lydia said..
R
Just enough righting moment meant generally came upright from near 90 degrees just.
As for seas, ocean sailing.
There was a time once when the JOG nationals had a long ocean race of 130 miles and the SCOR series a 200 mile long race.

So my observations where to test the conventional theories.

And remember that sea kindliness os often a function of boat balance

Ok - in our Farr 727 we came back upright from 90 degrees off Abbotsford Bay on the Parramatta River when hit by a murderous southerly gust funneling through the high development unit blocks - the gusts out of there are 3 or more times the average wind speed in the area.......and we were a tad sloppy with main sheet cleated..........we didn't do that again.........in the open water of the harbour and offshore we didn't experience such gusts unless they were southerly busters and we could well see them coming and could manage them................

Of course the legendary 1/4 ton cup of 78 in Japan was probably the JOG offshore long race of the ages............this post doesn't mention the 78knot gusts that hit the fleet- the Aust boat Seaflyer (skipper Hugh Treharne, foredeck John Stanley, and others) was hit and flattened........

rbsailing.blogspot.com/2015/09/quarter-ton-cup-1978.html

An Arends 33 should fit your criteria.
www.mysailing.com.au/news/moontide-an-arends-3

www.yachtandboat.com/listing/arends-33-10

From my varied experiences of crewing on racing yachts and owning a few boats the sea state is dependent on the wind and tide and swell and then the boat design is another factor sailing an IOR 2 tonner down wind with Spinnaker and Blooper on Shogun was an experience...
But the 35 foot range of yachts for cruising is a choice between custom built and production yachts I chose my boat the Adams 35 because of safety and its sailing quality.

Meh, and you are selling this yacht. Je n'e comprend pas.

Is this the same design Adams?
yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/adams-traditional-36/238317
It's local (Vic/ port Phillip bay) where BlueWaterBound is. Somewhat bigger and than what he stated he was looking for though.
i crewed on this particular boat one or twice. It was a long, long time ago.

Select to expand quote

cisco said..
An Arends 33 should fit your criteria.
www.mysailing.com.au/news/moontide-an-arends-3

www.yachtandboat.com/listing/arends-33-10

Thanks Cisco - yes, these keep popping up in my Swanson 32 searches. They are nice looking boats. My original size preference was based on solo-cruising experiences in the RL24. I can pull up the anchor by hand even in a swift tidal current, stow the jib without getting knocked about in 15 knots and reef the main manually. So to get into a smallish keel boat, I guess I was hoping to keep things simple and manual. But then I do want to safely cross to Tassie and get up to NSW, Qld and SA in time. The posts on this blog help to illustrate that LWL makes a big difference to speed and comfort, and being 180cm tall I guess I would get sick of a really small boat before long. The other factor is cost, so again I'd been told that keeping it small would save a lot. On the other hand, when you get to the end of your sailing life, I guess you don't look back and say "gee, I'm glad I saved a couple of thousand a year"